''Commercial'' doesn't mean quality.

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Indinera

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I think Aldorlea's games look awful.
Hey, it's not all about looks. And stop being so delusive about yourself, you don't have "high" standards, you just have your own personal opinion like everyone else.

Now a bit of history if I may. I was making a very comfortable living with Aldorlea games BEFORE Steam.

In this business only money matters. Someone thinks my games are awful, great. Show me how to do it better, dude. Make more money than me. Until then -> *shrugs*

You're just one of many who don't know **** about what kind of work goes into these games. I chose to work harder on the invisible content. Not your thing? OK, I respect that. Can you please at least consider it may appeal to some people?
 
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Nathanial

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Now a bit of history if I may. I was making a very comfortable living with Aldorlea games BEFORE Steam.
The two of you are also targeting completely different target audiences. He's trying to target more "hardcore gamers" (which is a very broad) and your games tend to target very very casual gamers (a niche, if you will).

I don't really know your sales figures on Steam , but perhaps if your results aren't satisfactory your target audience is a factor? Or presentation? 

When I say presentation I don't strictly mean visuals either. That's an aspect of it, but it's not all about the graphics. Your marketing wording.. your trailers, etc?
 
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Indinera

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Yes there is room for improvement I fully agree with this. That said let's not forget the age of a game is an important factor. My game The Book of Legends, from 2012, did well on Steam, with a top-50 position on its release. Steam should have released the games when they were made, not several years after, when the overall quality (including within my own catalog) has improved.

What I find ridiculous is to exagerate - not worthy of a Steam release? That's utter b-s. Any game that can land in the 5 let alone 6 figures without Steam IS deffo worthy of a Steam release.
 
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Nathanial

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But did it land in 5 or 6 figures on Steam? 

I only ask because you're clearly comfortable hinting at your sales figures BEFORE Steam. Feel free to tell me to screw off, I'm just curious. I think that's a very important thing to know.
 

Indinera

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Oh deffo good money, especially for games released so long ago. It's very likely newer games would do even better. As a support of this theory, TBOL is the best performer and also the newest (top-50 -> easy 5 figures :) )
 
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Nathanial

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But are sales comparable for any of your titles from your own niche-audience site to Steam. That's what I'm trying to get at. 
 

Indinera

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For TBOL Steam is the best. For older titles, not.

But tbh this is an unfair comparison. Older titles would surely have had massive steam sales had they been released in a timely fashion, like they should.
 

Nathanial

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I've seen older titles release that made 5 figures, almost 6 figures. Titles years old. I don't think it's an unfair comparison at all. 
 
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Hey, it's not all about looks. And stop being so delusive about yourself, you don't have "high" standards, you just have your own personal opinion like everyone else.

Now a bit of history if I may. I was making a very comfortable living with Aldorlea games BEFORE Steam.

In this business only money matters. Someone thinks my games are awful, great. Show me how to do it better, dude. Make more money than me. Until then -> *shrugs*

You're just one of many who don't know **** about what kind of work goes into these games. I chose to work harder on the invisible content. Not your thing? OK, I respect that. Can you please at least consider it may appeal to some people?
Hahaha what? We're targeting completely different audiences. Sure, your game might be good enough for the small niche you appeal to but that isn't the market I'm targeting at all.

I know more than you about what goes into a commercial game of the caliber worthy of Steam or a commercial tag in general. I'm in it to a much higher degree than you. Investments and time aside, I've been actively working my way into the actual game industry, not the niche you target, so I do know more about you when it comes to this specific market.

I'm not trying to attack you and I agree, you know more about your niche in general, but I'm not shooting for it so that's fine.
 

Indinera

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@Nathaniel:

Hmm I need to release more games to be able to know more. :)

But it's always good money for sure. 5-figure income is nothing to frown at, especially when it's just a fraction of the overall income.

Now I really want to see how new games perform. This should be exciting.

I know more than you about what goes into a commercial game of the caliber worthy of Steam or a commercial tag in general. I'm in it to a much higher degree than you. Investments and time aside, I've been actively working my way into the actual game industry, not the niche you target, so I do know more about you when it comes to this specific market.
Yet I'm probably richer than you from game making so meh. Good luck anyway, if you succeed, good for you. I like results, words have no effect on me. When results back up your words, I will congratulate you.
 
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Nathanial

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I want to see how new games with custom assets perform. With work into presentation that appeals to Steam. That's what I'm interested in.
 

Mouser

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I'm not really awake today, so I'm not sure how serious the OP was trying to be.

Let me restate the basic premise of this thread in some other terms.

One local supermarket in my area had rancid meat still on the shelf and somebody bought it. That means it's ok for every grocer to stock rancid meat and let the customers decide what they like.

Granted, rancid meat is a health hazard while bad games generally are not, but I hope you see the point. The existence of one bad game doesn't change anything about what should or should not be the standard for commercial games.

Here's what crap like this does to developers:

1) More games means each games receives less time to make an impression on the consumer. Put enough games up there, and many will receive NO attention from some consumers simply because they didn't have time to wade through all the crap to get to your game: No sales for you!

2) More games means lower prices and more sales. Customers are trained to believe that no game is worth more than $3. I'll leave it to you to guess what the developers cut is on a three dollar sale. No money for you!

There are other things that go on with a general sentiment of painting the whole genre with broad brushstrokes (ie: RPG Maker games R teh 5uxx0r5!!!), the loss of confidence in Steam as a distribution platform (this is one is my guess as to why they're axing Greenlight), and other things that while they may look 'good for consumers' on the surface, are bad for developers.

Who cares if it's bad for developers if it's good for consumers? Ultimately, consumers should. Make things bad enough, and people will stop developing. That means fewer quality products (games, in this case) for consumers across the board.

Let's look at another industry: Groceries, clothing, and household items. Why do I lump those three together? Because Walmart sells them all under one roof. Personally, I love Walmart. I live in Arkansas, and believe it or not Walmart provides the best wages and opportunities for advancement for most people (non-college grads) of just about anyone within 40 or 50 miles of where I live. [Mom and Pop stores are hell to work at unless you can call the owners 'Mom' and 'Pop'] Even if that weren't true, I really wouldn't care what they're hiring and employee practices are like so long as I get my cheap gas and groceries. I'm on a fixed income: we need more sweatshops, not less.

But from the point of someone trying to get into the retail business, you've got to carve yourself out a pretty special niche if you want to survive (and offer consumers your choice) because you'll never be able to compete with Walmart on price and availability of product.  I managed a corporate retail store for a while - It was not fun sharing a parking lot with Walmart, let me tell you, even though we did have a nice niche carved out for a while (until Walmart moved into it big time).

If you want to sell a more 'upscale' product, you've got to compete with Target (pronounced Tar-zhay - french syle). They've got 'upscale cheap' locked down. This is why stores like K-mart can't get a grip anymore, there's simply no room for them left in the marketplace.

Any, to bring this all back to games: yes, if you want to make a commercial product, it should be high enough quality that people are willing to trade dollars for it. I'm not going to state any specific features it needs to have or not have, just that one - your product is something people feel happy trading dollars (or Euro's or Wampum, or whatever currency the area uses) for. If it isn't; don't release it: you're hurting yourself as well as every other commercial developer in that genre.
 

Galenmereth

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The truth is this: It's easier than ever to make games. If you look at the App Store or Google Market – two marketplaces formerly hailed as the savior of small team development – you'll notice this leads to a problem; heaps upon heaps of cheap games. Knockoffs as well as shameless copies run rampant. Google and Apple try to keep up, but none of them can. Not even Apple, with what some like to consider "draconian" screening methods. The same is happening to Steam; mostly user-curated marketplaces will flood with "bad" games, and to stand out will – and has – become harder and harder.

This is why I gave up on making a living out of making games as an indie a long time ago. Might as well go to the casino. It's more luck than talent, most of the time. Or connections. That can help. I'm not trying to discredit the success some of you seem to have, but I'm just stating the reality: Getting in there with your own games is going to take a lot of willpower, effort, marketing, and all in all – time. Lots and lots of time. Notice I don't mention the actual quality of your game; unless it's really really different, it's irrelevant until you've actually reached people interested in it. Building up a group of loyal fans and customers can mean that you eventually may live off of doing this, but I wouldn't advise anyone without proper funding – whether a substantial saving account or otherwise – to jump headfirst into indie dev as their main income. That's financial suicide in today's climate.
 
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Lunarea

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I am in complete agreement that there should be standards for games - especially commercial RM games. We should be pushing for excellence, both to show what the engine is capable of and because we have the opportunity to reach much larger audiences via distribution platforms like Steam. By striving for higher quality, we would be providing something better to the customers and fellow developers like.

However, the issue arises from the fact that what we consider "high quality" can vary from person to person. One developer can have really high standards and expectations, while another might be content with less. And if the two opinions ever interact, it can turn really ugly and unnecessarily harsh. Without a purely objective way to say XYZ is good and ABC is bad, the only thing we can rely on is sale figures, and RPG Maker games are so new to the Steam market that it's impossible to know with certainty yet what's driving those sales.

As a community, I think we have a rare opportunity to provide support to each other and to help each other succeed in better ways - something a lot of indies don't always have. We're in direct competition with non-RM games (which can also produce so much crap that we're bumped off the page almost as soon as we release something), as well as with each other. But I feel that if we focus just on where another RM dev is failing, we aren't going to achieve much. The developer will either get away from the community and do whatever they wanted anyway, or they will be give up and get replaced by some other random non-RM developer looking to make a quick buck. But focusing on how to help each other learn the process and what worked (or didn't work) is very beneficial.

My 2 cents anyway. :)
 

Nathanial

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It's more luck than talent, most of the time.
No.

Getting in there with your own games is going to take a lot of willpower, effort, marketing, and all in all – time.
You mean making a commercially susccesful game isn't as easy as throwing something together in the RTP in a month and calling it good? It requires actual effort, time, energy, skill and sometimes money? Hm.
 
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Galenmereth

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Nathaniel B: The context of what I wrote is important. Making a living out of creating indie games is definitely more luck than talent, in terms of getting your foot in the door. It's certainly easier the more talent you have, but luck weighs heavily in terms of actually making a living on it. Saying anything else is disingenuous. I speak with – and read blogs from – small teams that make amazing indie games; games that are rated highly by their fans, and that are featured on Google Market and the App Store, as well as Steam. And yet they still are not succesful, because they're barely scraping by. Their games are successes in terms of craftsmanship, but they're financially flops. Until a sudden spurt of interest spawns from some random place on the internet half a year after release, or something else happens. And these are the people still in business.

If you get marketing, communication, craftsmanship, uniqueness, and price point all right the first time around, your chances are higher. But you can't rule out luck as a huge element. This goes for any business, but in a crowded place like indie game dev these days? Even more so.

I'll ignore the snarkyness; I don't see it adding anything to the topic at hand.
 

Nathanial

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All I'm saying is proper marketing and presentation and making a good game will do a lot right for you. If you're featured on the app market, you're on Steam, etc, and you're still failing.. You're clearly doing something wrong and need to evaluate how to make things work.

I'm sorry, you're never going to convince me that "luck" is one of the biggest factors in a game being successful. Maybe sometimes.. but not the way you're trying to imply. 

Case studies, actual market data, and participating in the commercial market myself before have shown me otherwise.

Edit: I'll even agree with you on the "connections" thing. That can most certainly help as well. So it doesn't hurt to network around. Go to gaming conventions where you can meet people (any of the PAX conventions, including PAX Dev). Join game development communities (outside of RMW) etc. 

I'm not trying to be antagonistic so much as I'm trying to stress that it shouldn't be written off as "well, you're successful because you just got lucky" or "the market is too saturated for my game" or "it's too much work to make a successful indie game". It's just not true. Does it take work? A lot. A lot of time and energy. But if you do it right (and take the proper development cycle steps to insure so, and done your networking properly) it pays off. Please don't write off your potential dreams because it's "too hard" or "oversaturated". 
 
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Shelby

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Don't ever say steam should quality control the games they sell, that is just not gonna happen, and why? Because they collect there $100 fee for being able to sell your game on steam, they are making money, doesn't matter to them if the game is $%^ or not, have you seen the online section on steam??? Those games have been dead for years!!! It's all about the money and never gonna change.
 

Nathanial

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Don't ever say steam should quality control the games they sell, that is just not gonna happen, and why? Because they collect there $100 fee for being able to sell your game on steam, they are making money, doesn't matter to them if the game is $%^ or not, have you seen the online section on steam??? Those games have been dead for years!!! It's all about the money and never gonna change.
They collect a $100 fee that goes to charity so that you can list it on greenlight where the community votes if it should go to sale. You don't pay a $100 fee to sell your game on Steam. That's not how it works.
 
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Shion Kreth

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Hahaha what? We're targeting completely different audiences. Sure, your game might be good enough for the small niche you appeal to but that isn't the market I'm targeting at all.

I know more than you about what goes into a commercial game of the caliber worthy of Steam or a commercial tag in general. I'm in it to a much higher degree than you. Investments and time aside, I've been actively working my way into the actual game industry, not the niche you target, so I do know more about you when it comes to this specific market.

I'm not trying to attack you and I agree, you know more about your niche in general, but I'm not shooting for it so that's fine.
Oh, that's cool. I havn't heard of you, what have you released? I might be interested in checking it out, since most of us who play these niche titles also play 'actual' games too.
 
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