Copyright Infringement on Purpose?

[mogwai]

I wasn't sure if this goes in the resource discussion. I don't think it does.


This is about resources, but neither for commercial or noncommercial games, yet the unmentioned category, personal games.


I think my games are better when I fill them up with copyright soundtrack, like pop music and metal and stuff. I'm talking about for games that I just make for my own entertainment and not to share, 'cept maybe to my family and friends which is more rare these days because we are in our 30's and everyone else is busy with work and marriages and babies. That's probably the best way to share games anyway unless you're a professional or a narcissist. I'm shy about sharing my games to the public anyway, mostly because I never finish them anymore... I used to do this in my personal games all the time anyway.


Is this a dirty thing to do? Do you do it, or could you consider the possibility? Should there be implications?


(I probably don't need to make a topic. I just can't sleep and my mind is unnecessarily chatty and I think even presumptuous. I don't know what's happening. I need to lurk more.)

Spoiler

just a comment, ignore this... similar subject, maybe different thread...


It seems like copyright was never that big of an issue as long as it was never straight up piracy, like back in the day. I think Youtube changed the rules. I'm also baffled that I see so many Youtube channels with video games and music videos and it's all done legit somehow, but if I have a webcam video with a blurry radio in the background Youtube shoves it down my throat.

 

[Andar]

Especially your comment shows that you don't understand all aspects of copyright.


You're wrong, copyright is a big deal - that is why "youtube shows it down your throat". The reason that some videos are allowed (I wouldn't even call it the majority, you just don't see any of the videos that got banned so you don't see how many that are), is that they go through the proper channels and that the owner of those music tracks have given licence to use them, usually in exchange for part of the advertisement value that youtube gets.


Copyright infringment is always illegal - but it is a civil law. That means that only the IP Holder can engage it, no one else, and the IP Holder needs to know about an infringment to file a case against it. Which is why uncountable (and unknown) fangames are on the net, but the second one gets famous enough to spread, it will also spread to the attention of the IP Holder and they will decide if they take action or not (and in some countries they are required to take action or get in danger of loosing the copyright entirely).


So basically, when making a fangame you have to hope to remain unknown to prevent that - not exactly what most people want.


And really?


Why use unlicenced music at all?


If you search a bit on the web, there are also hundreds of artists/musicians that give part of their music a licence of "free for non-commercial use", just in return for credits and to gain popularity. Use one of those instead of the big titles, and you're completely safe. It just requires you to spend a bit more time searching the web for them.

 

[mogwai]

Meh. I knew it wasn't a very good topic. I'm a little disappointed with myself.


I'm so glad the proper channels include every kind of personal butt kissing consent form from the wealthy artists, while the South American fruit farmer only needs your 25¢ per bushel for his product, with no face or knowledge of his name.


Also, that was supposed to be off topic. I don't know why I added the spoiler.

 

[Luxanna]

To be honest as long as you do not release the game to the public or make any profit out of it, I don't think it's such a bad thing to do.


You should only feel remorse if you knowingly use copyrighted material to make money and not pay the artists for their work.

 

[Shaz]

Why would you assume artists are wealthy?  I don't know of any who are.  All the ones I know are just scraping to make ends meet, like most of the rest of us.

 

[_Shadow_]

Well @mogwai what @Andar told you covers the whole part of your question I suppose.


Now about this:

Is this a dirty thing to do?

Well let me give you a very specific example.


Let's say you bought ten music cds. Those cds are your favorite music. Okay?


When you buy a CD you also actually get a license to listen to them for your personal entertainment, at your house, car or using a portable cd player. Maybe also use it as a DJ.


Who owns the rights? Probably a records company that already paid the artist. The artist has a job though, because a record makes profits for a record comapny. This is not always the case of cours, but it is a fact about the majority of pop music.


SO, what happens  if you broadcast a song at a radio station without any license?


What happens if you copy the cd and redistribute it to people for free?


What happens if you rip the cd and redistribute it through torrents?


In all three cases you harm the potential of future profits for the Intellectual Property owner.


Those profits are potential, meaning not everyone who got a copy would pay to buy an original.


If you copy the cd and redistribute it to people for a fee you make your position even worse because that is a CERTAIN loss for the record company, and you use their I.P. to make a profit. THAT makes you a thief. For real.


People argue though about two things on piracy:


Potential profits are profits that might come under a probability, thus this is not a certain loss. A pirated copy can protect a customer from being ripped. Thus it mostly harms bad products.


Information sharing should be free.


I can understand both arguments. They got some good points but those points work a little like straw man arguments.


Potential lost profits even if 10% of them would be most likely to be really lost, are lost profits.


In my opinion not ALL information should be allowed to be free. That's why there are laws and ethics that BOTH sides agree. I will not mention specific examples, but let's say that you can not share information of illegal acts. Such acts though, are sold as videos on the darknet. Why darknet? Oh! Because it is ILLEGAL and UNETHICAL and DREAD to do such things. I don't say that information should be restricted, there are restrictions going on everywhere even on ISP level in the World, that annoy me. BUT there are exceptions on information freedom. With great freedom comes great responsibility, because freedom is power.


Piracy also discourage people from making good games. Imagine an indie game developer, trying to cover his/her expenses, struggling doing a job and trying to get out of their misery by selling a game they put their soul into it. Let's say that the game is great. Piracy will actually harm these people. If someone does something nice and gets hurt, why do it again? Thus you might actually prevent a second game to be made that way.


No matter what people believe, support or think of copyright infringement and registered trademark infringement...


THERE ARE SPECIFIC LAWS,  PROTECTING THE INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY ONWER.


If we take those laws  and strictly read them, making a game to play it on your own, just for you, just for fun, using assets you are not licensed to use, is still illegal.


But you harm nobody really, as long as nobody knows about that game. It is still an illegal act though.


So it comes down to what you mean by the word "dirty".


P.S.


There is no stupid question. The stupid question is the one that was never asked.


Press Spoiler to see a reply on...

wealthy artists

Spoiler

Look, Iron Maiden got their own castle, but they got it by doing hard work, making great music, performing fantastic concerts and eventually people were buying their records because they admired and loved them.


Wealthy artists. But how did they became wealthy? Maybe a little of luck, add a LOT of talent and you got the answer.


How about Madonna? A Queen of pop music indeed. And a rich woman too.


What about Arisha? Oh? You don't know her?


Well look, she was a pop singer that was unlucky enough to make her debut  at the age of the cheap CD writers (1995).


Now her only single is sold for just $2, she is unknown, but it was a GREAT pop song back then.


But who knows about Arisha?


Not all artists end up rich. Most struggle to make a living.

 

[Aoi Ninami]

Also, if you think sharing our game projects is a form of "narcissism", I strongly encourage you to go and try out some of the ones that have been posted. If you find even one that you enjoy, then there was a point to that creator uploading it.

 

[mogwai]

I'm talking about wealthy artists, because I'm talking about pop music; not world music.


It's not about the hard work and wealth though when I say wealthy artists, is it?


It's about you monetizing entertainment more than life itself, food for instance, roads, housing, etc.


I think you owe the the destitute beef rancher just a little more for keeping you alive (even though he is likely to lose it to the bank this year) a little more so than some fancy guy in makeup playing the guitar made you feel good.


I'm not attacking your self promo here either. I'll probably end up playing your games and enjoying them. It's just that self promotion and assuming everyone likes you is the dictionary definition of the word I used. I'm treading lightly for repeating the word, because it's offensive. For the record, I also called people sharing their own games the professionals.

 

[_Shadow_]

Also, if you think sharing our game projects is a form of "narcissism", I strongly encourage you to go and try out some of the ones that have been posted. If you find even one that you enjoy, then there was a point to that creator uploading it.

Good point. Sharing a game, is a form of communication and self expression. This is not considered narcissism.


Narcissism is posting a game, believing it is the best game in the world and bragging all the time about it, while everyone obviously can see it is a piece of crap. So that's another story.Saying that sharing a game, is a form of narcissism is an exaggeration in my opinion @mogwai and I really believe you are well mannered and humble to believe that, but hey, there is a difference. You can say that sharing a game is like asking of people to know you better, or draw their attention, or pass a message or express your feelings. Still all of them are not narcissistics.


I like your humble attitude, but don't let it be a barrier for your creations to be exposed. You told us already you are shy. I encourage you to share. I challenge you to risk. Get out of your box! Let us see you. And if someone will be blant and rude be sure we will assist you. It is good to share things you make for two reasons:


1] You get feedback on what is good and what not. According to the majority of the opinions you get a picture of where you are and you become better and better.


2] You enjoy being a part of a community. If you are gonna play a tutorial game I made, called EVENTS, you will realize that it is full of flaws. Typos, poor use of english at some points, hard syntax... still people liked it. I got a lot of feedback (that hotmail kindly erased) but I am glad I was keeping notes. I learned A LOT about game making by posting just ONE game full of flaws.


Why not make a small tiny game, FINISH it, then ask us what we think about it?

 

[Aoi Ninami]

I'm not attacking your self promo here either. I'll probably end up playing your games and enjoying them. It's just that self promotion and assuming everyone likes you is the dictionary definition of the word I used. I'm treading lightly for repeating the word, because it's offensive. For the record, I also called people sharing their own games the professionals.

You did, but most of us here are not professionals, so it really sounds like you are saying everyone here who isn't a professional is a narcissist, and backing it up by saying that posting our games is "self-promotion and assuming everyone likes you". And it really, really isn't. People post their games for two main reasons -- for other people to enjoy, and because we know we're not perfect and we can all benefit from feedback.

 

[RHachicho]

I'm sorry but this just sounds like a tantrum because you can't have what you want. You are making fangames to make others "feel good" I don't see why you get to suddenly compare yourself to a beef rancher .. as if that's even relevant. The mere existence of essential expenses such as food and clothing does NOT suddenly mean you don't have to pay for non-essential ones. And about the first thing you said was these games were only for friends and family. In which case they will never come to the attention of the copyright holder. Or at the very least .. never be worth their time. 


So what are you even complaining about? These artists work hard to make their stuff. Despite what you might believe even those who become rich and famous don't just take a 5 minute break from life aboard their personal yachts to fart music into a microphone. Hell even keeping yourself pretty enough to be in most pop bands is decent work all on it's own. Not to mention the stresses that kind of fame places on them itself. 


This sounds like a serious case of "Robin Hood Syndrome". Championing the little man merely because he is little. Not because he deserves it. Championing the freedom to use copyright material because you want to do it. I know a lot of people who sung your tune. One of them got quite good and started making games to sell. And once he got a wake up call into just what goes into that all of a sudden he was allll about the rights of the artists .. including him .. to their work. 

 

[Andar]

The original question was answered, this seams to be deterioting into a discussion on what something or someone is worht - so closing.



There have already been numerous discussions on this in the commercial area that kept the wording tamer and were about facts, not opinions - search there if you want more facts about this. But never forget that this is a company forum that has to follow corporate law - we will never approve of any copyright infringment in any way.