Crafting sucks?

Discussion in 'Game Mechanics Design' started by V_Aero, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. V_Aero

    V_Aero Villager Member

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    Hey all,

    I think we all know the thread about things to avoid in our games, and in this I red few times that some players dont like arbitrary crafting. And I still remeber that one guy who commented a NoMansSky Youtube video with "Oh it has crafting? I suddenly lost all my interest in this game."

    When I play a new RPG and it introduces me to crafting, I have never thought "yeah lets check it out", but more like "eh I check it out when there's really no other way to get the equipment I need." Probably it is because I want to explore the world, find secrets, fight monsters, maybe build relation ships, but I never wish to lookup incredients and to scroll through crafting menus.

    Many games have crafting, but I successful avoid it everytime. Maybe I do the crafting tutorial but then leave it for ever. But what if I really need it later? I need some item, try to craft it and then.. Oh no I need to level up first :/

    You know which crafting system I like? That one from Horizon Zero Dawn - because it is easy. You just gather the required items, select the equip and bam, you're done. Some players say crafting needs to be deep. But honestly, why? Is it fun to learn an intentionally complex-made system? To click through menus? To lookup all the interim items? Or my favorite (NoMansSky): to build a refinery which needs 2 min to outputs items? Well NoMansSky is a great game but its crafting system sucks.

    Problem: I call them interim items. I cannot build a sword directly, first I need to lookup which kind of wood it needs and then how to craft it. And later in the game it often requires uncountable number of steps to finally get a good weapon. Is it fun? Not for me, sorry.

    Is it just me or does crafting works the same for all games? :
    - You need to craft "processed wood", from 3x plain woods, to then craft "wood sword"
    - You have a crafting level, so when you start into crafting later in the game, you spend most times crafting trash items to directly sell them. Most times you even lose money.
    - You need to gather an enhancement stone once your sword is +5 to break some barrier

    My thoughts to build a better crafting:
    - Allow to individualize weapons or armors.
    - Make it easy to understand how to individualize them. Eg in Guildwars2 there are special ingredients (dont know their names in english, maybe "insignia") which will define the outputs stats, but rest is same. The player knows which insignia is for which stats.
    - Avoid grinding and farming

    So what are your thoughts about this subject? I know some players like the concept of crafting, but I just hate it.
     
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  2. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    At one point I was dabbling in crafting in my game to let the player upgrade current items. For instance, they could upgrade their potions to another type of potion, and so on. All upgraded versions though were for sale already too, so the only reason you'd do it is to avoid having 99 potions that heal 500 HP at the end of the game when everyone has 5,000 HP and all monsters do way more than 500 HP damager a hit.

    I ended up taking it out as I had no idea how to make good upgrade tiers, but it might return in my next project at some point.
     
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  3. Parallax Panda

    Parallax Panda Got into VxAce ~2014 and never stopped... Veteran

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    I liked crafting... in Minecraft (hehe). But yeah, it can be done well if simple in RPG's but it's usually done in a bad way. One good example is Ara Fell, the best RPG maker game I've played to this day. It also has a terrible crafting system that is not only un-fun. But also feels out of place with the rest of the experience.

    I guess crafting can make sense for a game where you actually BUILD things. Like again, Minecraft. The entire game is about building. In a game like Harvest Moon where you build a farm, it would work far better than in your typical JRPG where you're on this quest to save the world. Why would you then stop along the way to craft? It feels iffy to me.
     
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  4. ShadowDragon

    ShadowDragon Veteran Veteran

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    Crafting in Terraria and GuildWars2 has easy crafting system, some require higher tier in GW2, so there is
    pro's and con's in most crafting system, some require from start up (like make weapon to defeat enemies)
    if you use levels or not or you cant buy any weapons or armor and you need the same weapon/armor to upgrade
    for better.

    There are many nice crafting systems out there, but does the game need it? is it a side part? can it craft exclusive items
    not found or obtain by monsters or chests?

    Any way you want to go is really up to you. Some find it usefull, some dont, but you can craft keys to unlock doors,
    while you cant find keys for example, make better potion (50 hp), you can buy 50 or 100, 3x 50hp potion -> 200-250 HP potion.

    There are many ways it can be used. But I dont mind crafting though. The only thing I hate more on crafting is that you
    MUST level up the tier to create better items, like in GW2, so i skip crafting, but i know that when crafting, you get the best
    armor/weapon that can cost you more at the store and less on crafting. Tier crafting should introduce early in the game
    that you can start right away to level it.

    If the game is good, i dont mind any crafting system if it suits the games need =)
     
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  5. TheoAllen

    TheoAllen Self-proclaimed jack of all trades Veteran

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    Put crafting in a game where you can express yourself. So the crafting feature can actually be a core of the mechanic. Regardless of how the crafting system works. If your game is linear and/or already have a focus on one thing, I don't see why would you want to divide the player's attention into crafting system. It only makes it unnecessarily complicated.

    That said, Majority of RM games are linear/narrative driven. And their players probably expect that they sit and read the entire story brought by the dev. Then suddenly a wild crafting feature appears. To cook food, you need these ingredients, etc. To craft equipment, you need these materials. Why though? Why would you divide the players' attention to care about your crafting system?

    There will be two outcomes, the dev makes crafting essential that to beat the game you have to craft specific equipment/item, which probably some of the players might never expect because they don't care. This will make the game both grindy for crafting material and indirectly being a puzzle. Personally, I wouldn't like when I want to see the continuation of the story, then I need to deal with your crafting system. I want my experience to be seamless. Otherwise, I'd just play a game where the story is secondary while expressing myself being the primary. Another one would make the crafting system insignificant because it's optional, which imo it's feature bloat.
     
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  6. mathmaster74

    mathmaster74 just...John Veteran

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    This was the second biggest problem I had with Fallout 4. I was like...really? They took Fallout and added Minecraft? D:< Don't get me wrong...Fallout did have some recipes before Fallout 4...but they were if you wanted custom weapons that made them interesting to pursue. That was just one of many side objectives a player could choose to pursue or not on their own, and in a game like that where more content generally meant more time to play the game and explore all of its world and find other side quests, etc. it worked. Fallout 4, however, forced you to...

    build the device that gets you to the Institution...

    ...and that requirement really bothered me.

    In general, I think there are systems that have been gravitated to because they were done well once or twice and because we loved them in those well done instances, we think they are awesome features that need to be part of our game too:

    Farming: Harvest Moon and Stardew Valley
    Mining: Minecraft
    Foraging: Don't Starve
    Crafting: Minecraft and Terraria
    Grinding XP/Lvl: Final Fantasy? (I mean...really...I struggle to think...has this one truly ever been done well? I know personally, I hate it.)

    It should be noted before I continue that Minecraft is in two of these categories, not surprisingly Mining and Crafting...but Minecraft was both a demo and a sandbox when it was first released. Notch's (the developer's) intent was to make it a 3D adventure game...eventually. Mining and crafting were two of the primary features that were functional at the time, and when your options are mine, craft, and use the aforementioned to build weapons, armor, torches, and shelters to survive encounters, they are integral parts that make or break the whole experience. Frankly, unless these things are an integral part of the game itself or its story, I find them all to be laborious, fun-killing chores that say "spend more time in this game" and "no more story for you until you complete x, y, z." If you look at the examples I gave of these features done well, you should notice a trend. Those games are built around these mechanics. If you're not building your game around a mechanic, and the mechanic itself requires repetitive action or a significant amount of time to garner results, then leave it out. If you really want to take the time to include one of these systems in your game to appeal to a larger audience, then make the content optional for those who want it and, as was mentioned before both here and in other posts, at least give the results unique benefits so it wasn't just "option B" to obtain an item.

    One last note and I'll step off the soap box...if you're still going to do it, and this has also been mentioned in other posts in this thread...keep it simple. I don't want a system that's anything but intuitive. I don't want to hunt down ingredients you made up to build components that you made up to acquire an item that does mystery effects known only after built and used. I should also have an abundance of ingredients available in the world to take me through the process without arriving at...wait...I need 3 of this "specialty item" when I can't even find 1 anywhere and have been searching like Markiplier trying to find dirt and the blacksmith in Eleusis? Not fun! If I'm farming, the seed's description should tell me what I'm going to get, including the mature plant's beneficial effects. If I'm mining special ore, I should be told what it can build that no other ore can. If I'm crafting something, I should be told what the benefits are in continuing the build. In short, to do it right, keep it simple, make it accessible, and give me reasons to care...or build your game around it in the first place. :stickytongue:

    P.S. Now if you don't know what I was talking about re: Markiplier's searches in Eleusis...you should YouTube his Let's Plays of the game start to finish to get the full effect. :guffaw:
     
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  7. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @mathmaster74 : For leveling most consider Disgaea an example of how level grinding is done well, mainly just due to all of the options available to you on how you grind it.
     
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  8. mathmaster74

    mathmaster74 just...John Veteran

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    @bgillisp Good to know. Sometime, if and when I have the chance, I'll have to play it or maybe find a Let's Play to watch to see what's considered "grinding done well". :cutesmile: Btw, for me grinding is defined as: rehashing the same old battles over and over because you're not strong enough to move to the next, new ones yet. I hate backtracking to fight a battle I already won just because it gets me leveled to where I can continue. It kind of breaks the story flow for me and I lose interest fast when that happens. Before I started learning to make games, I had a tendency to be able to have an immediate suspension of disbelief and could even be oblivious to many story inconsistencies, but backtracking to rehash won battles for needed XP always took me right out.
     
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  9. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    Depending on the Disgaea there is a little of backtracking early game when you are like level 1 - 3 or so, though I've usually managed to tough it out with minimal redoing of story battles. But why most like it is you can grind in the item world, which is a randomly generated dungeon based on the item you offer up, and the monster levels depend on the level of the item. Plus, you also grind the item's stats while in there as well.

    Later games also open up the cheat shop where you can just adjust monster levels too in order to make them stronger, so you can grind on more powerful monsters. Or you can do what I did and just make the main story really hard (BTW I don't advise that, that was almost a nightmare!)

    PS: This might be a topic for a new thread if you want to start one and see what others think.
     
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  10. TheoAllen

    TheoAllen Self-proclaimed jack of all trades Veteran

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    Funny thing is I think Fo4 is nothing without the crafting feature. The weapon modding may not actually the best as it's tiered, but the rest of the crafting imo the best for all the game I've seen. You see the satisfaction of placing the rocket launcher turret above the scaffolding and see them cheesing deathclaw from afar. I bet around 70% of my playtime I spend my time actually do the settlement building.
    Can I ask why u bothered with the Institute quest requirement? Were u neglecting the crafting to the point that you were forced to gather the material that you didn't have it when you need it?
    Do note that I generally don't bother with crafting but Fallout 4 was the first game I genuinely enjoy crafting.
     
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  11. eluukkanen

    eluukkanen Composer Veteran

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    Crafting is always bad when there is no thinking in it in game. Just combining a few items together is never too fascinating.

    However, some people won't touch your crafting system if you do not really force them to with gameplay. I never do if weapons I got from elsewhere do the trick.
     
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  12. woootbm

    woootbm Super Sand Legend Veteran

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    The short answer is "Yes."

    The first thing you should consider is whether you feel strongly about having crafting in the game, and if you have a good idea of how to implement it that you are confident will play great (or if you have someone on your dev team that has this).

    The second thing you should consider is if it fits your game. Crafting generally makes sense if your game is meant to be longer than 20 hours long as a side activity; it can be a form of grinding to fill time in a way that gives the player a break from endless combat. The best RPG maker games, I've found, have been under 20 hours. Usually well under it. Putting in mechanics to fill the player's time make less sense. You have a time extender in a brief experience. It's like waiting an hour in line to buy a coffee. Don't do it.

    The last thing would be if it is actually a crafting game. Like a Stardew Valley or Minecraft or something. It doesn't sound like it is, so this one gets ignored.

    Putting all these considerations together does make it seem like crafting is generally a bad fit for an RPG Maker game. Unless it's something very streamlined like that Horizon example (probably moreso than that, though).
     
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  13. atoms

    atoms Veteran Veteran

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    Maybe I'm different from everyone else here, but I think Crafting, as in crafting items or "Cooking", can actually turn out to be quite a fun feature in even short RPG Maker games. (I'm not suggesting it fits every game! It depend on the objecitves of the game and everything else you've got going on, but it could fit in a RPG Maker game in general, if it's planned, is what I'm saying).

    Especially if you don't know the recipe outcomes in advance and you can craft/cook different combinations from the items you buy in shops. See what works and what doesn't. What new items with slightly different bonus effects give, too.

    I think it could be fun and rewarding once you learn what combinations works well, you could have more items with similar features and spend time combinations them for different combinations. I wouldn't want this to have to be forced, but something the player can spend a few minutes on when they'd like to, if they'd like to. And repeat when they'd want to.

    I don't know, is everyone really against this idea too?
     
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  14. SolonWise

    SolonWise The Lonely Maker Veteran

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    I like crafting weapons and equipments, specialy if the crafted itens are only obtainable via crafting, but I have to agree that there is a lot of ways to screw this mechanics and make it boring or useless.

    There is also a diference between crafting equipment and upgrading equipment, and I think a upgrading system more simple, and it fits better small games. A whole crafting system where you have to look for ores, wood and monster dropings fits better in a big game, with a world map and things like that. Just like Final Fantasy.

    For instance, my current game is very small (one map challenge) and there is a simple upgrade system. There are 6 kinds of "material", and for upgrading all kinds of equipment the player will need 5 materials of a kind, and 5 material of another kind. Then, depending on the item, he will need a specific upgrade item such as silver powder for swords, hard leather for medium armor, iron pieces for heavy helms and so on. All of these items can be found battling monsters, and the player must decide if he wants to sell this material for money or use them to upgrade his equipments. It's so simple that I didn't even use a plugin, I did everything with 3 variables and auto switches.
     
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  15. Tai_MT

    Tai_MT Veteran Veteran

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    The issues I tend to have with all crafting systems:

    The tutorial does not allow me to play with the crafting system
    See, when you introduce a new mechanic to me, as a player, I expect you'll let me play around with it. Most tutorials give you a handful of items, tell you to craft one item, then send you on your way. No. Don't do that. Fallout 76 reminded me very heavily to never do this. Final Fantasy 7 also smacked me in the face with this crap when it introduced Materia. This tutorial being as open-ended as possible is what will ultimately make me decide if I like your system or not.

    Most games just teach you basics of crafting. That's not what I'm looking for. Give me the ingredients to build 6-8 items at the MOMENT the tutorial is given to me. Make my options for which items I build, be 6 of 14 or something. This will inform me of two things. You want me to engage in your crafting system. You also want me to decide what the best items to craft are. It isn't a linear system.

    Crafting systems are linear experiences where all levels/crafting materials are worthless except the last dozen
    A linear crafting system only works in an MMO. Why? Because you can sell the low level junk to low level players. Low level players can craft the low level junk and use it for several hours before needing new junk. It does not work this way in a singleplayer RPG. Why? Because you can buy equipment. Equipment can drop. You'll find good equipment from chests. Crafting equipment is a tedious waste of time. You will only ever be able to craft equipment equal to the crap you can buy in the store. Why? Because the good materials don't appear until the end of the game. The sole exception to this... is Skyrim. Endgame materials literally begin showing up the minute you're 5 main story quests into the game (or less?). However, the progression of your crafting levels is so linear that it isn't really worth investing any any weapons/armors that aren't stuff you get off of random bandits... or the endgame equipment. Even on my first play of the game, I largely skipped over all the "middle tier" equipment. I rushed the final tier of stuff and went immediately from Steel armor (which I'd picked up off of bandits) to Dragon Armor.

    Crafting materials don't stay relevant
    Oh, sweet, this iron that I spent a lot of time mining in the early game is worthless at end game! What can I do with it? Nothing? Sell it for money I don't need? Yippeeeeee…. Seriously, Minecraft handles this best. Wood, the first material you ever get in the game (usually) is valuable long after you've conquered the end of it and are wearing Diamond Armor. Unless your crafting materials are this level of relevance... don't bother with a crafting system at all. You're wasting your time and you're wasting the time of your players.

    Crafting materials are difficult to come by
    Why is this a thing? Here's what you do... every crafting material in your game... it has a price associated with it so it can be sold, right? Well, why can't I BUY the crafting materials? Why do I always have to spend time hitting your resource nodes? Why do I always have to spend time grinding your monsters? For crying out loud, let me buy the materials I need/want if I have the money to do so. Your idea of "the player needs to grind to make this system useful" is something that is backwards. Never enforce grind on your player. If I don't want to spend money on your crafting materials or I don't have money to buy them... I'll go harvest them for free. But, chances are... your RPG is like 99% of those on the market in which my characters are carrying around the entire worlds' wealth in Gold Pieces and there's absolutely nothing to spend it on. I could theoretically buy an entire army to fight the big bad at the end... but I can't buy some raw iron.

    Crafting serves no purpose
    Many devs try to make their crafting "have a purpose" by making it mandatory. I hate these games. I hate devs that think this way. Crafting, by and large, should serve a major purpose in your game. At least, if you have it. Dragon Age Inquisition sort of approached the kind of crafting system I enjoy. You get a blueprint, then can plug in whatever materials you have on hand for stats and effects. Their system for this was incredibly linear and there were "tier" systems in place to make it a grind... But, I've always liked the idea. Maybe silver is good against Undead. Maybe iron is good against spirits. Maybe mithril is good against dragons. Let me decide which metal to use in my sword, since they all have a use. Maybe I can "alloy" two metals together to combine their bonuses. Let me PLAY with your crafting system. Make it a way to customize my characters. I don't need more equipment, your game drops it like candy from every 5th chest and every 20th enemy. Or, I can buy it in a store. Now, if I can craft the same "Iron Sword" that's at the store, but it's got different modifiers because it's been "hand crafted" by me to serve a specific purpose... Well now... that makes crafting interesting. I could craft an iron sword that has +5% critical hit rate, an iron sword that raises the damage of Lightning Elemental Attacks, or an Iron Sword that boosts my defense. Well... NOW I'll play around with your crafting system. Because, suddenly, it has a purpose! A clear goal in mind!

    Tiered crafting materials
    Look, here's the truth of it... It's not the material that a weapon is made out of for whether or not it's more powerful. More often than not, it's the edge of a sword you can put on it. Iron replaced bronze because it was more durable and you could get a sharper edge on the swords with it. Steel replaced iron for the same reason. A cut is a cut, regardless of weapon used.

    I don't want to pick up "Fire Stone" that only ever adds a +3 Fire damage to an attack... and then later run across "Fire Gem", which adds +25 Fire damage to an attack. Congrats, your Fire Gem just obsoleted your Fire Stone. Please don't tier your crafting materials or crafting recipes. If you want to have "tiers", just tie it to a "Crafting Level", so that players who invest into this early in the game can get an advantage for doing so, even with what limited materials are available to them.

    Just do something so that I'm not ignoring 90% of your crafting materials until the end of the game, as they're all worthless and quickly replaced until then. I don't need 12 different tiers of wood for more and more damage. You can do this crap without a crafting system and it's less tedious without one. Namely, just give me the next strongest sword in the upcoming treasure chest... or shop... If I have to craft it once I find the "better materials"... just... no. That's tedious in ways I can't even fathom people think is a "good idea".

    Crafting system implemented as "rule of cool"
    I can instantly tell if your crafting system exists because you think crafting systems are good. Namely, it doesn't connect to any major portion of your game and isn't a main feature. It exists as some side feature to "appeal to people who like crafting". Don't just add it to your game because you like it. Don't just add it because you think it's cool. Add a crafting system because it ADDS TO YOUR GAME. Because your game does not work without it. Those are reasons to add it.

    Nothing turns me off of your crafting system faster than after the tutorial finishes and I realize it has zero potential because you decided to just throw it in there. "For fun". At that point, it is decidedly not fun, and I'll proceed to ignore it for the rest of the game.

    If you want to implement a crafting system, you need to examine why you want to do this. What you are hoping to accomplish. If that reason isn't, "My game literally could not operate without it", then just ditch it. Your game will be better off. Your players will never even notice your game doesn't have a crafting system. But, they'd notice if you just threw it in there "for fun" and it was terrible as a result.

    ---

    Basically... most people should not be implementing crafting systems into their RPG's. They fail one or multiple portions of this criteria to even make the systems worthwhile to the players. Or even to their own games.

    You're better off designing a game around crafting than you are jamming crafting into an RPG. I haven't even seen AAA developers get crafting systems right. Not even in MMOs.
     
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  16. Aesica

    Aesica undefined Veteran

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    Do I think crafting sucks? Not if done right, but it seems like most games do not do it right. I realize that "doing it right" is very much an opinion, so I'll just share that opinion and see if it appeals to anyone else.

    First, what's the wrong way? What grinds my gears about crafting in nearly every game I've played that has it is:
    1. Most of the stuff you can make is either garbage or readily available by other means. Why do i want to waste time collecting herbs for potions or leather scraps for leather armor I can save myself the headache by getting them at the town shops? "But what if they're really expensive in the shops?" Oh you're going to soft-force me to craft these things, then? Okay I hate your game. Negative review and/or refund request incoming.
    2. Anything good is all a big scavenger hunt for a bunch of crap that's either limited quantity/missable (made the wrong things? too bad!) or is hidden away in places only the developer knows about. I've found 3 rainbow ores, but I need 8 to make the Ultra Mega Shield? Where are the other 5? It feels like I've been everywhere and i'm at the end of the game!
    3. It substitutes actual gameplay for menu management. Having enough gold to buy that magic armor in the shop? Rewarding! Finding something super-cool in a treasure box? Satisfying! Getting an unexpected item as a rare drop? Awesome! Having to navigate menus and keep track of crafting materials, all while partaking in the above scavenger hunt? Naw I'd rather explore your world, fight your monsters, see your story, etc.
    Having gotten the negativity out of the way, how can a crafting system be used in a more tolerable way? How about these?
    1. Gear upgrade system. Let's say you find the Fire Sword (Lv 1). Using crafting to emulate a system not unlike what's seen in Secret of Mana, you could upgrade this weapon to Fire Sword (Lv 2) after finding a special upgrade item--either Orb (Lv 1) to upgrade any level 1 weapon, or Fire Sword Orb to upgrade the Fire Sword specifically to its next rank.
    2. Endgame gear only. Nobody cares about crafting longswords, leather shields, cloth caps, etc. However, if the system is meant only for unlocking endgame gear, it might feel a bit less crappy.
    3. Special types of items only available through this method. Long ago, in a game called Final Fantasy Legend 3, there were elemental and light/dark crystals you could find periodically that could be combined to create a special category of spells--Lost Magic or something like that. A crafting system would lend itself well to something like that, provided that's all it was used for.
    Note that the above examples are still subject to being corrupted by limited/missable items, excessive scavenger hunts, and other bits of unpleasantness. It's up to us as developers implement such things responsibly.

    That said, I was thinking of using option 3 in my own game as a way to create extra powerful spells (equippable in conjunction with innately-known spells and abilities) but I'm probably not going to bother. As mentioned above in the negative aspects of crafting list, it's more satisfying to find the item directly than to hunt down A, B, and C before you can assemble it into what you want.
     
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  17. gstv87

    gstv87 Veteran Veteran

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    I made my own system, and I'd probably have to revisit it and change a few things, but as it is, it's not *required* to complete the game.
    it *helps* with the customization of the characters, but you can totally beat the game without crafting anything (except when completing quests that make use of the crafting system as a plot device, but that's beside the point)

    most of the crafting systems you'd find around, are intrinsic to the completion of the game: you *must* craft that weapon, or item, or whatever it is that enables you to complete the game. (in Minecraft for instance, you always have to craft the key to opening the End)
    I left that optional to the player, with the incentive that crafting objects would be cheaper than buying them, and potentially cheaper than risking a combat situation to get drops, where other items can be used, that when summed up would account to a higher price than the item in question, OR, where a fight would risk hurting or killing a playable character.
     
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  18. Tech

    Tech Villager Member

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    I'd like to bring two games to your attention: Dungeons of Dredmor and Kingdoms of Amalur.

    Dungeons of Dredmor uses a series of subclass modules to create ad-hoc characters. These modules include classes with the ability to craft equipment, such as the Blacksmith (armor and weapons) and the Mad Scientist (gadgets). The crafting system is integral to the classes that use them.
    Kingdoms of Amalur has a unique spin on the crafting system: you can tear apart old equipment for its components, each of which has a unique effect, and,at high levels, you can add the Gems that are supposed to be placed in an item's socket directly into its makeup. A crafted weapon will therefore almost always surpass a steal-me-down, and can be tailored to your playstyle.
     
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  19. V_Aero

    V_Aero Villager Member

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    That sounds like a really cool idea.

    That explains the way Zelda Breath of the Wild goes along. Some of my friends really like it, because of the reasons you already told. It's rewarding. On the other side there are players who don't like trying and memorizing or writing down recipes. So I cannot say if this system is rather cool or not. So well, keeping those systems optional sounds fair.

    I go with you, however there can be reasons why some items are not buyable. To make some challenges. Eg. some kind of tokens or proves that the player did some task, eg. kill specific monsters, find hard to reach locations...
     
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  20. Tai_MT

    Tai_MT Veteran Veteran

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    @V_Aero

    And there's the problem. If it has to be ME who kills this specific monster to get the rare drop to craft something... Why are all these extra and unnecessary steps here? Seriously, just make your boss drop the item I'd be crafting anyway at a 100% rate, if you want me to kill it. Why do I have to go to this location to kill the boss, then go back to a crafting station to combine it with other crap, to get the weapon? You're not even directly rewarding me at that point. Why not directly reward me? Get rid of the extra pointless steps for the same outcome?

    Same with the locations. Why doesn't the location just hold the items in chests that I would "earn" instead of crafting materials? What kind of crazy logic does this make in a singleplayer game?

    In an MMO, these make sense. But, that's because every player is directly comparing their progress to the progress of other players. They are directly seeking "bragging rights" in the community.

    But, a singleplayer RPG? What is the point of these things? Why not just have the items/armor/weapons drop from the chests or boss of these areas that "prove skill"? Or provide "the challenge"?

    It's not a challenge when it's, "Kill 55 Butt Frogs to get the Frog Butts to make the Armor of ultimate Badassery." That's just grind. Pointless busywork. Is it more challenging or less challenging to kill a random mook that only appears in this one area for a crafting material I need to progress? How about multiple of that same mook? More or less challenging? What challenge are we even trying to prove at this point? That I have the necessary fortitude to carry on despite being bored out of my mind for a minor reward?

    I'd like you to meet Final Fantasy X. The Chocobo Racing. The Monster Hunting. The Lightning Dodging. Yeah, pick one. What "skill" did I have to earn the weapons from these activities? The same one I'd get from such a crafting system that requires me to kill specific mooks "for challenge". Namely, the challenge to not fall asleep at my keyboard and not get so bored that I give up on your crafting system altogether, write it off as "terrible" and beat your game without it.

    Seriously, just let me spend my money to buy your crafting materials. They make a better Gold Sink than they do a "Challenge". Likewise, if you want me to prove I did some task (get to the end of a dungeon, kill a boss, complete a quest), why not just reward me with the direct upgrade to the equipment instead of crafting materials or tokens to "prove I did it"? Again, this isn't an MMO. If I beat the side boss, instead of giving me Infinity Ore to craft the Infinity +1 Sword... just give me the freakin' Infinity +1 Sword. If I have to kill 3 bosses to get the Infinity +1 Sword, just reward me the sword directly after the third boss kill.

    Why do crafting systems always have to have all this pointless busywork?
     
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