Silenity

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Yall taking this too seriously lmaooooo.
 

Ksi

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I really like crafting in games, especially RPGs or Survival games. It's just fun to me to get some extra items, gather ingredients and make your own stuff out of them, especially if there's a fair amount of stuff to collect/create.

Granted, some crafting systems are a bit bleh. I'm not a fan of the ones that require you to grind hours on end just to get the one piece of item you need to make the next teir of weapon, but I don't like them too easy, either. I hate wait times when it comes to crafting stuff too (the worst part of DQ8 - waiting for that dumb pot to boil).

I think adding something a little extra to a crafting system that allows you to customise your creations a bit is fun too - say crafting with a fire shard gives you a flaming aspect to your new sword, or adding mermaid tears gives a 5% bonus to MP healing for that Potion you just made. Fun stuff like that, which allows for some customising based on your current situation.

Headed to an ice dungeon next? Throw some flame shards on that sword of yours and deal a bit of extra damage. Going to a place where enemies poison you a lot? Throw those potions in the pot with a couple of antidote herbs to make Heal pots that combine the effects. Enemies are hitting harder suddenly? Kill an Iron Turtle for it's shell and throw that in to boost your defenses a bit. Add a Mermaid Tear to give a passive % heal to boot!

That kind of thing is, I think, fun, as long as the ingredients aren't hell to get and you don't need to wait or play obnoxious minigames in order to do the crafting. Fun!



---

I loved DQ11's crafting, I gotta say. I liked that they allowed you to refine your items and I didn't feel like it was too hand-holdy. Besides, games should tell you how to play them anyway. I hate the new thing of "Look up the wiki/guide to learn anything at all about any way to play the game ever". Minecraft has a lot to answer for on that front. :shakes fist:

But yeah, please tell in-game how to play the non-apparent aspects of your game. Don't leave it in a guide, don't leave it in a wiki, don't leave it in a help file. I want to know how to play your game, in the game. There's nothing, absolutely NOTHING more off-putting than having to tab out of a game in order to look up how to do something that is completely normal and expected of the player. Talk about breaking the immersion.

(For example, ARK: Evolved can go eff itself with it's lack of telling you any controls. I had to google how to pick up rocks. In the first minute of gameplay. Because god forbid the game lets you know how to effing play the effing thing or give a hover notice or something.)

So, yes, teach me oh game dev how to do the **** you require me to do. Give me hints and hold my hand the first time I do something that isn't the norm for the type of game I'm playing. Tutor me! Tell me the hows! Don't just drop me into the fire and expect me to magically know ****. Guide me!
 
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somenick

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There is no need for this "all or nothing!" approach to crafting. I very much prefer that games did not force me to craft things; however, an optional simple crafting feature that can grant me rare items is never a bad thing, provided it doesnt break the game.
 

kairi_key

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It is a fair point that crafting is not really needed much in RPG, but if I were to make a game that has crafting I always look to a side-scrolling action RPG called Odin Sphere because I find it fun and memorable in a way. (So this is more personal, lol)

Crafting in Odin Sphere is divided into Alchemy and Cooking. I don't care that much for Alchemy part(tho how they do it is kinda an interesting concept) but I love the Cooking part. To be frank, my attraction to it are more on food porn than anything else. Cooking is simple. You find a recipe in the game, then you can go to a restaurant with the ingredients to have them cooked for you.

Eating food in this game restore health, give you bonus EXP and +a few point to HP. Eating food from recipe give you HUGE bonus EXP that you can't really get from simple grinding or just eating ingredients food. Most cooked menu are eaten in the restaurant while some few is a takeout that you can eat in battle. Some recipes has advanced version which unlock after you cook them up a few times. So most of the time you want to cook is because you functionally just want some quick levels(I only need to gain 1-2 levels when I can't take on bosses which is mostly 2-3 menu... it's not that hard of a game). Ingredients are not hard to find at all, and most of them are already consumables and some of them are recycle-able consumables(I know it sounds strange but it really is). Ingredients are like around 20 in numbers. The inventory is limited so cooking is also one of the way to clear space for inventory that give also give you good EXP. The rewarding feeling is seeing your level go up so fast and seeing all the food animations which is somehow satisfying to watch.

In conclusion that ties back to the topic, the enjoyment of Odin Sphere's Cooking is mostly presentation(food porn) and how you can kinda don't need them and the game doesn't make you feel like you need to cook all that much but it hooked me anyway since the food looks so good. It's more of a gastric juice rush enjoyment, lol. If I wanna make a crafting system, I wanna give them nice delicious imagery to enjoy in a more slice of life style rather than the more mechanical aims. So... I don't really know where some of you are coming from since I don't really play that much game. But if there's a crafting systems similar to things mentioned in the first posts, I'll probably vote against it.

-------------

btw, the suggestion on the last page reminds me a lot of Vagrant Story. It has a system in which you can make your own weapons from scratch by attaching blades to the hilt. I've never played it but I see it in a review so if anyone wanna try this idea out, maybe you should check the game.
 
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Eurgh

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At the moment in my game there is a crafting system which is introduced very early on in the form of a sidequest which tasks you with collecting herbs from a field of slimes as they are what slimes like to eat, and the alchemist isn't combat orientated and doesn't really want to die since death is very much a risk even for the player since coming back from the dead is very much a gift from a god.

You pick these herbs while killing/kiting the slimes. hand them to the alchemist, she takes the ones she asks for and lets you keep the rest. She then gives you a recipe for a health flask. Then says she might see you around and leaves.

This health flask is better than normal potions you can buy and will also always be useful since my potions work on % instead of flat rates. The explanation given to why a crafted one is better than a store bought one is because store bought ones, as you can imagine are mass produced, so they are massively more diluted which would make them more money in the long run. This means that the low level ingredients are always going to be useful. The collectable ingredients are scattered liberally around the world and glitter to show they can be harvested. Crafting and gathering are different skills, so you could buy all the ingredients and craft things without being held down by your gathering level (Like herblore in runescape) with the explanation for needing a higher gathering level for some ingredients being you learn how to better handle them. A delicate flower that can bring back the dead wouldn't fare too well if Krug the Barbarian man handles it and tears it from the root. While crafting is obvious that more powerful potions and the like would need better knowledge.

The crafting and gathering also comes into gameplay as a quality of life, or in some cases ways to solve problems.

Ranged weapons use ammo, you can freely buy ammo as much as you want but you can also craft it using items you will find naturally through drops/harvesting. This is quality of life, ammo isn't the most expensive thing, however if while playing the game, you've ended up with some wood, stones and feathers; you can top up your ammo and save yourself the trip to the store, especially in a tight situation. While you can also craft specialised ammo such as poison arrows, etc.

Gathering comes into play where in an optional dungeon requires you to find some driftwood to use as a makeshift bridge as parts of it have eroded over time. The reason i've made it a gather-able resource is because it will train your gathering skill while also being a resource you might need later since they re spawn and can be used to solve different puzzles/problems.


To add to my previous explanation about crafted items being better, you can also create multi-use potions as well as every time you finish a potion you've crafted, you're left with an empty bottle again which is more cost effective
 

ave36

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My game does not have complex crafting. It has crafts shops in towns, which can assemble a weapon or armor from assorted junk for a price, but that is fairly simplistic. You do not have to craft everything from scratch. The recipes in crafts shops are more or less "Take a Sword and 5 Magma Blob Pieces and assemble a Fire Sword" type.
 

Tech

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I was thinking about this the other day, and I remembered this one game (I forget the title) where the hero was a Magic Blacksmith who, as long as he had a girl who liked him nearby, could use her magic to enchant his equipment. Crafting was not something stuck into the game for its own sake, but was integral to the story. If you can't think of a reason for a mechanic beyond "it popular," then don't use it.
 

MetalHunter13

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I've got a very minimal crafting system in my game. It takes place in a wilderness, so the character must craft his own weapons instead of buying them. They're tiered, in a way I suppose - He has a hidden "Crafting Skill" rating that is his level / 2, so the higher level he is, the better weapon he makes. Also, his weapon has a chance of breaking in combat, which means he will need to keep crafting at some point. However, the material for weapons is easily obtained - it's not a matter of IF he finds material, but what KIND of material he finds. The materials are very, very slightly tiered, the low-tier stuff does slightly less damage than the high-tier stuff. This is tied in with the theme of my game. He can also make certain accessories out of animal hides (again, a single item!) that provide small bonuses. I would like a system that allows the player to adjust certain aspects of the weapon design for slightly different stats, but I think this might be a bit too complicated for RM2k3. Also, I'm not sure how I want to handle this yet, but I want to have a "Unique" variant of each weapon type that does more damage, has a special ability, and never breaks, but can only be made once.
 
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JosephSeraph

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I really enjoy crafting when it's not recipe-based. Star Ocean 2 for me is the holy grail of crafting. Whenever I find some new material or upgrade someone's Specialty level, I'll get REALLY excited thinking about all the cool new items that could await me in the shadows.

All the items have long descriptions and colorful, rotating 3D models, making them feel very alive. A lot of items say something about a character or the world. The outcome of crafting is semi-random and you have to go in blind and learn it up. It just ticks all the right spots to me.

In comparison, your boring-ass old recipe-based system is just a boring way to give the player a task checklist.
 

FleshToDust

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People seem to keep wanting to say x sucks or is bad as though there is no opinion involved and whatever it is, is just objectively bad. That leads to there being only one way to design games in the RM community which means all your games look and feel alike. Don't know why that should be encouraged.

Another thing is that what you may hate I may love. Everybody likes different things. I hate going into shops to get the newest gear every time I enter a new town. There's no reason to get attached to your equipment then and you may even decide to save your money and skip a town or two.

I find crafting much more fun and engaging. You have to build equipment yourself from scratch.
Monster Hunter does it, Dark Souls does it, the biggest games in the AAA industry do it and we play these games and really enjoy these mechanics so it's reasonable that we'd develop a game with these mechanics we like so much.

On the other hand I suppose there are people who are fine with the final fantasy/dragon quest way of doing items but I personally find it incredibly bland and boring not to mention it's what a typical jrpg would do.
 

Tai_MT

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People seem to keep wanting to say x sucks or is bad as though there is no opinion involved and whatever it is, is just objectively bad. That leads to there being only one way to design games in the RM community which means all your games look and feel alike. Don't know why that should be encouraged.

Another thing is that what you may hate I may love. Everybody likes different things. I hate going into shops to get the newest gear every time I enter a new town. There's no reason to get attached to your equipment then and you may even decide to save your money and skip a town or two.

I find crafting much more fun and engaging. You have to build equipment yourself from scratch.
Monster Hunter does it, Dark Souls does it, the biggest games in the AAA industry do it and we play these games and really enjoy these mechanics so it's reasonable that we'd develop a game with these mechanics we like so much.

On the other hand I suppose there are people who are fine with the final fantasy/dragon quest way of doing items but I personally find it incredibly bland and boring not to mention it's what a typical jrpg would do.

I'm sorry, I had to quote you. Only because I find something amusing :D

"That leads to there being only one way to design games in the RM community which means all your games look and feel alike. Don't know why that should be encouraged."

As well as...

"On the other hand I suppose there are people who are fine with the final fantasy/dragon quest way of doing items but I personally find it incredibly bland and boring not to mention it's what a typical jrpg would do."

Coupled with the sentence:

"the biggest games in the AAA industry do it and we play these games and really enjoy these mechanics so it's reasonable that we'd develop a game with these mechanics we like so much".

I find it amusing for the fact that despite the fact your post is "pro crafting system", the exact same arguments you are using to support that viewpoint can actually be used to shoot down your viewpoint if used from the opposite end of the spectrum.

If everyone is designing the exact same crafting system that they all know and love... Well, they're doing the same thing. Designing games in the RM community that all look and feel exactly alike. I don't know why we're encouraging that either.

Likewise, why are we taking cues from the AAA industry in terms of what to copy? I really enjoy being able to spend $100 and beat the crap out of everyone in a game because I can buy my way to victory. We should design more games where I can do that!

Oh, and I suppose there are people fine with the way Dragon Quest and every MMO that ever existed crafts items... But, I personally find it incredibly bland, boring, and insanely tedious... not to mention, what any typical RPG with a crafting system would do.

---

The point isn't that "crafting systems are bad, end of story". The point is: "Crafting systems as everyone implements them are bad."

Namely...

They are grind-fests for no purpose other than to pad play time.

There are dozens of suggestions in here for how to improve those systems. Or, rather, how to not implement them so players won't hate them.

No matter what game system or feature you love... It has issues. It has problems. It has drawbacks. It has failings.

If you do not address these problems, drawbacks, and failings, then there is a good chance that the majority of players will find your feature or system to be sub-par. Boring. Annoying. Frustrating.

As a rule, I don't play RPG's with Crafting Systems in them anymore. I just don't. They're all the same. Nobody has innovated the feature since it's inception. It's the same today as it was 30 years ago.

I'd be in favor of a crafting system that addressed all my issues with them. I'd probably enjoy myself if devs actually removed 100% of the grind from their crafting system.

But... as it stands now?

I have a job. I have social obligations. I have chores to do in my own home. I have adult obligations and relationships to maintain.

I do not have time to buy a $30 game that feels like a second job. That takes more time to complete because of the crafting system than a full 40 hour work week. I have no desire to pay someone else so I can do a second job that I'm not being paid to do.

I just don't. I don't have that kind of free time anymore. The allure of "feeling like I'm accomplishing something, when I'm really getting nothing out of it" that I used to enjoy as a child no longer exists. I'm adult. All that "grinding" and "accomplishment" stuff that the young people chase in a game? I chase that in real life. It's more satisfying to get it from my actual job where they pay me... than to get it from a game in which the only reward is that I no longer have to play the game anymore.

So, yeah. I want to see someone actually create a whole new crafting system. One that avoids all the pitfalls and issues of every current system. One which is actually fun to engage in.

Until then, I'll stick to my "open world" games that have mastered crafting systems and actually making the act of crafting a fun experience. RPG's... they just don't do it as good. They probably never will considering how much push back people who love crafting systems give when told that they should innovate or change them to make them more fun.
 

FleshToDust

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You're missing out if you avoid stuff just because it has crafting. It's your call though.
No Souls games, no Monster Hunter, no Witcher, no Skyrim. Amazing games. You really should play them.
 

Tai_MT

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I avoid RPG's that have crafting in them. I play lots of games with crafting in them.

Factorio. Minecraft. Stardew Valley.

Those are the three games I play the most with crafting in them. Though, I have dabbled in 7 Days to Die and Ark.

I think the last three RPG's I played with crafting were...
*Mass Effect Andromeda
*Dragon Age Inquisition
*Skyrim

In my experience, Crafting adds very little, if anything, to an RPG. Well, other than padding. Excessive padding. Forced grinding.

Though, I do play a couple MMO's with crafting... I play Final Fantasy 14, which actually makes crafting interesting and mostly fun. It also doesn't require I waste a bunch of time to engage with crafting, nor does it pad out any part of the game. I also play Warframe… where crafting is basically mandatory in order to get anything beyond "garbage tier" equipment. But, that's the primary gameplay loop of Warframe… and it's not really an RPG so much as it's a "dungeon crawler" type game.

I honestly don't mind losing out on game experiences where the dev wasted a lot of time and effort designing something I hate rather than making the rest of their game better.

I consider it the same as avoiding sequels to games that have suddenly added multiplayer to them. Are there probably good sequels that added multiplayer and it was done well? Oh sure. Absolutely.

Are there many? Nope.

It's easier to just avoid them than it is to waste money and hoping it's not as bad as the rest of the times you've engaged with it.

Someday, someone will design a great crafting system for a singleplayer RPG. I look forward to that.

But, judging by the people who seem to love Crafting and want it to remain unchanged forever and ever and never want to remove the worst parts of it to make it more fun and engaging... I'm certainly not going to hold my breath.

Heck, I probably stand a good chance of redefining crafting systems for all time just based on how I'd implement one and all the stuff I'd change. That is... if I actually wanted to make a crafting system in an RPG (yep, I made a post in here about how I'd specifically create a crafting system and how I'd do it differently and in a way that I think would be more fun than the bog standard way everyone else wants it implemented).

It'd be nice to read a post in this thread from someone who loves crafting and was like, "Yep, there are some really boring and annoying and grindy bits. I want to fix those and make the greatest crafting system ever! Here's how!". I'd love to read something like that. To see what someone who truly cares about creating an amazing experience with crafting would do.

It just makes me sort of sad to see so many posts advocating for never changing crafting, and saying "nah, it's fine, there's nothing wrong with it".

I mean... I get it... Vanilla Ice Cream is delicious on its own to some people. But... I mean... What if you could have Vanilla Ice Cream as well as chocolate syrup on it? Or sprinkles? Or peanuts? Or, what if you made the Vanilla Ice Cream itself soft serve instead? Or, changed the particular flavor of Vanilla so it was more mellow and palatable to other people?

You can have your Vanilla Ice Cream with a spoon... But... why can't you have it in a thousand other ways with a million other toppings? Why can't you make it better? More interesting? More exciting? Why can't you make it the best Vanilla Ice Cream ever? Why does it have to be just standard Vanilla Ice Cream? Why can't we get a professional chef who knows all about flavor profiles and accentuating tastes to make an objectively better tasting bowl of Vanilla Ice Cream?

Vanilla Ice Cream is boring to me. I don't want to eat it plain. I want it with chocolate chunks in it. I want it with strawberry drizzle. I want it with candy sprinkles. I want the flavor to blow me away so that I want to eat the entire tub instead of the bowl. In fact, throw some whipped cream on there too! Maybe let it sit and melt a little bit so I can have some Ice Cream Soup with the standard Ice Cream! That sounds delicious!

Why can't we have a Crafting System like that? Why can't we have people who love Crafting Systems want to make something like that?
 
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One of the reasons why crafting is enjoyable in Stardew Valley is because it rewards your character in a wide variety of tangible and intangible ways.

A lot of what I've seen from other games is the use of crafting solely or almost solely to upgrade equipment and consumables used for combat.

There's a lot of potential to make crafting more enjoyable in a RPG if the developer uses it for more than just combat gear.

Side Quests for example can be far more than just fetch quests - one could design a Side Quest that opens up different paths of side story development depending on what a player crafts for the Side Quest.
 

Aerosys

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I have a job. I have social obligations. I have chores to do in my own home. I have adult obligations and relationships to maintain.

I do not have time to buy a $30 game that feels like a second job. That takes more time to complete because of the crafting system than a full 40 hour work week. I have no desire to pay someone else so I can do a second job that I'm not being paid to do.

I just don't. I don't have that kind of free time anymore. The allure of "feeling like I'm accomplishing something, when I'm really getting nothing out of it" that I used to enjoy as a child no longer exists. I'm adult. All that "grinding" and "accomplishment" stuff that the young people chase in a game? I chase that in real life. It's more satisfying to get it from my actual job where they pay me... than to get it from a game in which the only reward is that I no longer have to play the game anymore.

I really understand this problem, but I'm not sure if we should blame it on the Crafting. Grinding and compulsively gameplay came up with MMORPGs and Service Games, which stay alive because they get people to login every day. They are designed to stretch time.
 

Tai_MT

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Such systems have been around before Mobile games. It's just that the Mobile market and MMO Market have made these systems even more onerous than they used to be.

I don't really enjoy "padding" in a game due to my obligations. I don't like things that exist for no reason, which will eat up my actual time, and don't contribute enjoyment to the game.

Crafting is just a contributor to this issue in Singleplayer RPG's. To an extent, Crafting makes sense to have in an MMO, since you can craft things for other players, and you can earn money which is usually valuable all the time in an MMO. But, a singleplayer game? In a singleplayer game it seems to exist largely to pad play times, which is probably why it's remained unchanged for like 30 years.

I tend to prefer it just not exist in an Singleplayer Experience if adds grind to the game and it is the "unchanged" method of crafting we've always ever had.
 

kairi_key

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By the way....

What do you guys think about a game where crafting is a cheaper option?
Like, most items that can be crafted can be bought, but if you can find ingredients for the blacksmith, you'll just need to pay for the crafting fee. In such game, crafting is not really a way to gain good equipments that you can't find, but just an option to save money. And the actual gold sink might be on something else, or money is simply hard to come by.

I think it is an okay way and simple enough. The problem is to find a way not to push players to keep grinding for ingredients. It might be a situation like... you need 2 more equipments but you don't have enough money, and you kinda know that you can get some ingredient for one of them easily. You go grind for the ingredients and when you get enough ingredients, you might already have the money to buy the other equipment without the need to grind for more.

There could also be something like... blacksmith in each town are known for different talents. Some equipment can be easily crafted in one town, but not in the next, or even not at all and make some equipment exclusive to blacksmith in certain towns. If that's the case, travelling from town to town might need to be designed to make it easy.

Rereading this thread kinda make me think a bit. That's all.
 

Parallax Panda

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Think it would frustrate a certain typ of player group (that I’m myself part of) that’ll force themselves to craft if it’s cheaper because it’s the ”optimal” way. Even if they dont’t want to.
 

Soulrender

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I didn't read all posts and I won't read, but IMO crafting should be simple and easy, let's get simple example:

Hero has sword: Silver Sword (+16 ATK), use furnace to forge with extra material (with ingame timer: 30sec) and required element (silver) and voila: Silver Sword now has +19 ATK and so on. Easy, simple and not frustatic (depending on drop rate of ingredients).
 

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