Damage Formula Discussion?

Carduus

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While I was trying to think of every blessed switch I'd need in a damage formula, I realized I had a bigger issue: the implications of various damage formulae on one's game.


1. If monsters and characters both advance linearly, how is the player experience changed from both advancing multiplicatively or exponentially, in both gameplay and psychology?


2. What are your favorite damage formulae, and why?


3. Do you find that adding a random element helps or hinders battles?


4. Is there anything that a damage formula can do to encourage strategy?


5. And last, is it a good idea programmatically to bog down something as integral as the damage formula with a million nested switches?
 
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Wavelength

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  1. If monsters and characters both advance linearly, how is the player experience changed from both advancing multiplicatively or exponentially, in both gameplay and psychology?
  2. What are your favorite damage formulae, and why?
  3. Do you find that adding a random element helps or hinders battles?
  4. Is there anything that a damage formula can do to encourage strategy?
  5. And last, is it a good idea programmatically to bog down something as integral as the damage formula with a million nested switches?


(Numbers added to make it easier to respond to a bunch of different, related questions.)

  1. I don't understand what you are trying to express here - you will probably want to rephrase.
  2. (attacker stat * skill multiplier) / (defender stat + constant)  This formula allows a much wider "strike zone" for balancing than the traditional additive formulas do, it allows skills to correctly scale and be useful throughout the entire game, and it's relatively easy to understand.
  3. A very small random element improves the experience.  For competitive, tactical games, a larger random element can also improve the experience a lot but only if the player has a way to influence or control it to some extent.  A large random element tends to hurt the experience a lot.
  4. Yes.  But it depends on the nuances of the damage formula, of course - and which mechanics are intertwined into it.  Maybe a damage formula for a certain skill gives you a bonus for having missed last turn.  Maybe it gives you a bonus based on a secondary stat.  This kind of stuff can influence strategy and encourage interesting tactics.
  5. It's fine.  While it would be somewhat annoying to edit, I don't think there's any technical risk or significant processing hit that would be incurred by doing so.
 

Carduus

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For #1, let's say I'm doing 10 damage at level 1, and 40 damage at level 4 (additive growth). Compare that to 10:1 and 160:4 (multiplicative growth) or 10:1 and 2560:4 (exponential growth). Which one do you pick for your damage formula and why? Bigger numbers certainly make you feel more impressive, but smaller numbers are easier to deal with. And if the monster growth matches your growth, does it make any difference to the fight which kind of growth you have?
 
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bgillisp

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I'll just mention 2 here. I've used three different damage formulas so far. I've tried:


9 * a.atk - 5 * b.def: This had the advantage of working better with smaller numbers than the default formula did, but had the disadvantage of making so that buffs were pretty worthless (why buff DEF when all it does is block 25 - 50 damage of my 1250 HP?). Also had the advantage that you had to be nearly at 2x the attackers ATK to drop damage to 0.


10 * a.atk * ((100 - b.def) * 0.01): This works out so that each point of ATK does 10 damage, and each point of DEF blocks 1% of damage. However, the problem is DEF feels useless until you get about 20 - 25 points of it, and if  you are not careful the damage can go negative (will happen at 101 DEF). The pro is the formula is really easy to explain to the player.


((a.atk + a.level) * (a.atk + skill strength)) / (b.def + 20): This is a variation on @Wavelength's formula. The +20 in the denominator stops it from dividing by too small a number, and the addition of a.level adds a little bit of a scale factor keeping low strength skills still viable late in the game. Seems to work well so far, and I've tested it with enemies and players having skills in the 200's and skill strengths up to about 700. Just make sure to get an enemy level script though, else it will not work right for enemies!
 

Wavelength

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For #1, let's say I'm doing 10 damage at level 1, and 40 damage at level 4 (additive growth). Compare that to 10:1 and 160:4 (multiplicative growth) or 10:1 and 2560:4 (exponential growth). Which one do you pick for your damage formula and why? Bigger numbers certainly make you feel more impressive, but smaller numbers are easier to deal with. And if the monster growth matches your growth, does it make any difference to the fight which kind of growth you have?


I try to make "effectiveness" (damage dealt, etc.) scale at a very low rate with level - although the actual power gain by level and the way that damage numbers, on average, increase over the course of the game are two very different beasts.  But in most games I make, I try to use a low linear correlation - such as 30 Attack at level 1, 40 Attack at level 4, 50 Attack at level 7... and I have the Defense numbers increase a little slower so that the damage numbers (as well as HP totals) increase throughout the game.


Even if monster growth matches your growth, the "kind of growth" definitely matters - an exponential system is going to exacerbate the difference of a level or two much more than an additive system is going to.  Additionally, the impact of equipment will vary based on your growth system.
 

Kes

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This is a sort of answer to question #2.  In my present project I am, for the first time, including a base power before the damage formula proper e.g. 25 + (insert formula here).  That is because I want to reward the player for exploration.  One of the things that can be found are a number (total yet to be determined) of 'skill orbs' which increase that base number, 5 for single enemy/ally skills and 2 for multi-enemy/ally skills (I may change those numbers on final balancing).


Assuming this survives playtesting, I think it will give the player an added satisfaction in knowing that they have been able to affect their skills in such a direct and (as far as I know) uncommon way.  Though perhaps you players of MMOGs will tell me that it is as common as fleas in those games.
 

Slimsy Platypus

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I think 1. is such an interesting question.  If you are taking the  same number of hits to kill something than you did at level 3, what makes being level 100 feel more powerful?  


Also considering the fact that most RPGs have stat growth where the player has no knowledge how stats accumulate and what their relative effectiveness is (one character has 546 defense and this other has 378, how much does that matter?); this makes me wonder, how are stats even fun for the player?


I really really favor stat systems that have low numbers and you can understand what they do.  A great  example of this is The Banner Saga's.  You can do all the math in your head of how much damage you do and it creates lots of interesting choices.


I think that perfecting a mathematical formula to cover edge cases of issues is one approach, but I find the eliminate and start anew very interesting.  Effectively, there are stats that increase damage, and stats that decrease it.  What's the difference effectively between hit chance and defense?  Are they even necessary?  Tons of cool design space here that hasn't really been explored all that much I think.
 
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Wavelength

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Also considering the fact that most RPGs have stat growth where the player has no knowledge how stats accumulate and what their relative effectiveness is (one character has 546 defense and this other has 378, how much does that matter?); this makes me wonder, how are stats even fun for the player?


Would it be easier to calculate if the stats were 54 and 37 instead?  Maybe in a simple additive formula like 4 * a.atk - 2 * b.def... but no easier with multiplicative damage formulas (which, for example divide a.atk by b.def).  As another question, somewhat more philosophical - do we want the player to calculate such things as the exact amount of damage they'll do?  I'd argue there is a small minority of games where we want this - and for the rest the player will be happier if heuristics are enough to do the job.

I think that perfecting a mathematical formula to cover edge cases of issues is one approach, but I find the eliminate and start anew very interesting.  Effectively, there are stats that increase damage, and stats that decrease it.  What's the difference effectively between hit chance and defense?  Are they even necessary?  Tons of cool design space here that hasn't really been explored all that much I think.


I think you make a really good point, and I was thinking earlier today about how many stats are really necessary to make an interesting battle system.  Couldn't come up with a good answer, but I think it's probably a very low number.  Designers should always ask themselves the questions you've asked here, try to make a case for both sides of the argument, and then work from there to figure out whether the mechanic is adding more harm or good.


I'm currently in the process of removing MAG and MDF from my game, meaning that all skills and spells will work with the same Power (ATK) and Armor (DEF) stats, and very sparingly giving actors/enemies states that provide percentage resistance to all magic or all physical attacks in cases where one or the other should clearly work better based on that enemy or equip.  I haven't started the playtesting cycle yet to determine its ultimate effect, but my instinct is that it's going to provide a lot more clarity for the player in the magnitude of damage they will deal or take.  I even thought about removing DEF as well and rolling it into HP, which is something I might do in future games.
 

Slimsy Platypus

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@Wavelength I love your insight and really enjoy these kind of discussions!


Regarding [my words] "player has no knowledge how stats accumulate and what their relative effectiveness is": It's funny, almost all of my favorite RPGs all operate like this (I've probably played Final Fantasy Tactics for hundreds of hours and I couldn't tell you what Bravery or Faith do).  I don't necessarily think this is bad.  But like you mentioned, if we are replicating these systems ourselves, it's a good exercise to ask ourselves "why are we including this?"


To expand on my Banner Saga example a bit more.  what that game has effectively done is take stats which players would typically have just ignored, and made them important to their decisions in game play.  While playing that game you will think "OK, so I will do 10 damage, but it will be reduced by his 5 armor, but that won't kill him, so maybe I should attack this other guy".  What this has essentially done is make a game system that the player typically wouldn't interact with part of the fun!  It's the best example I can think of where I can confidently say the stat system resulted in a positive player experience.  So I naturally ask myself, how can I emulate that? (without doing the same exact thing obviously).


I think your philosophical question "do we want the player to calculate such things as the exact amount of damage they'll do?" is right on the money.  And I think you're absolutely right, in lots of games part of the "exploration" is saying "lets try this and see what it does".  Honestly, that has worked and is tried and true.  But I wonder, can we bring that in a bit try something new.  Can we give the player the option to be the mathematician?  Should we just be the mathematician and tell them exactly how much damage they will do?  Will it even be fun for them?  I don't know, but I definitely think that there is some room to explore!  This is one of my favorite things about RPG maker.  We don't need to take big risks, we can go out and search for answers of these questions without millions of dollars on the line.  And heck, we might even strike gold!
 

Kes

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But I wonder, can we bring that in a bit try something new.  Can we give the player the option to be the mathematician?  Should we just be the mathematician and tell them exactly how much damage they will do?  Will it even be fun for them?  I don't know, but I definitely think that there is some room to explore!


In one of my games I gave the player the formula as part of the skill description.  There was very little feedback on that specific detail, and what there was boiled down to "I didn't really take much notice of it."  Which isn't to say that giving the info was a waste of time, after all, there might well have been players who did find it interesting/useful/intriguing/whatever, but didn't give feedback.  But I must admit, I was a bit disappointed that it seemed to have such a minimal impact.
 

cekobico

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I have no answers to contribute, but I just want to point out that the majority of game I've played has experienced some form of 'datamining'/reverse-engineering to extract exact damage formula of the game (Brave Frontier, 7 Knights, FFRK, even some older FF titles). 


I'm not sure if there's anyone bother to do it for an RPG Maker game though. 
 

Tai_MT

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While I was trying to think of every blessed switch I'd need in a damage formula, I realized I had a bigger issue: the implications of various damage formulae on one's game.


1. If monsters and characters both advance linearly, how is the player experience changed from both advancing multiplicatively or exponentially, in both gameplay and psychology?


2. What are your favorite damage formulae, and why?


3. Do you find that adding a random element helps or hinders battles?


4. Is there anything that a damage formula can do to encourage strategy?


5. And last, is it a good idea programmatically to bog down something as integral as the damage formula with a million nested switches?


Okay, this may sound a little rude or mean, since the way I post things is fairly far from the way others do.  I'm just letting you know ahead of time that if you take offense to something I write, no offense was actually intended.


In any case, I remember a similar topic on such things and I think I covered my own personal opinions on it there.  If you haven't seen it (or don't want to go looking for it), I'll give a brief summation here.  I prefer additive formulas to multiplicative because for me, it's easier to balance these values than if you had some kind of exponential growth.  Even when playing games that use damage formulas in such a way that I'm hitting really big numbers... I'm not really paying a whole lot of attention to the numbers, because they're ultimately meaningless.


Okay, I'm an old grizzled ancient here (or maybe it just feels that way), but before I ever decided to try to design a game, I used to play pretty much every RPG I could get my hands on.  The one thing that I noticed happening to me?  I didn't care what the damage numbers said unless they were uncharacteristically low... or they were something like Max Damage Dealt.  Any number in between?  I didn't care what the number was.  As a player, there was functionally no difference between 5404 damage and 5301 damage.  Why?  Because I was counting hits.  How many hits to this monster before it dies?  3 Hits.  Okay.  If I get an extra 200 damage through a level up on this skill... is that still 3 hits?  Or is it now 2?  If it's still 3 hits, then what good is that extra 200 damage?  May as well be an extra 2 damage on a 30 HP enemy.  Functionally... no difference.  Likewise, if I wipe out an enemy in one hit doing 20 damage... or in one hit doing 30... what's the difference?  It's still dead in 1 hit.


For the player, that's the important thing.  Okay, sure, some players like to min/max their characters (I'm one of those), but generally speaking, players like to see tangible evidence that gaining skill means something.  Extra numbers for damage that don't mean anything are quickly relegated.  A player won't say "I hit for 5463 damage!"  They'll tell their friend, "Yeah, I hit it for like five thousand damage" or "Fifty-Four Hundred" if that damage matters in the hundreds' spot.  They usually drop the 63 because it doesn't mean anything.  It rarely kills an enemy faster or makes any sort of difference in combat if you're dealing with larger numbers.  Sure, those extra digits can add up if combat lasts a while...  But most RPG combat rarely lasts longer than 2 or 3 turns for basic enemies or longer than 10 turns for most bosses.  So, your extra numbers on the end of the 5400 number are basically pointless.


Personally, I'm dealing with much smaller numbers in my combat system and a much more simplified and streamlined method of calculating damage.  With the few playtests I've run with actual players on the combat system and in gaining skill points, they seemed to like the idea of progression.  The power itself, while delivered in small increments, is delivered frequently enough to feel as if you've leveled up, and each stat point itself feels meaningful.  Now, I will admit that I've only run these tests on maybe 5 or so players, so they're hardly conclusive, but it's the overall opinion (granted, it's not how I worded it, it isn't a direct quote, but the feedback I received was basically joy at getting new stat points and getting to see how much damage they then could do in combat).  I'm not sure if that opinion would continue to carry if I tested with a much larger audience, but for now, it's all I needed to keep the small numbers and current damage formulas.


So, let me give you an example.  Basic slime enemy has 8 defense.  First character you start with has 10 attack.  Basic attack formula is simply a.atk - b.def.  There's a chance for a critical hit in there and a 10% variance (I like using the variance as my variable... to make it harder to pin down the exact amounts, as well as to surprise players with extra or less damage).  Slime has 10 HP.  So, it will take you 5 hits to kill it.  Without a weapon.  Okay, you do a quest and it nets you an item that raises Attack by +1.  You use it.  Now, instead of taking 5 hits to kill that slime, it takes 4.  You're only doing 1 extra damage to it each hit... but hitting 3 each turn effectively takes the slime 4 turns to die now instead of 5.  Okay, so you equip a Sword that grants another +2 to Attack.  Now your attack stat is 13 while the defense of the slime is only 8.  You're hitting that slime now for 5 damage each turn (give or take) and it now dies in two hits instead of 5.  Now you feel powerful.  Against the most basic enemy in the game.  What if you equip a two-handed sword that has 6 Attack on it?  Now your attack stat is 17.  It still takes two hits to kill that slime, yes it does, but with variance in play, you might actually kill it in ONE hit.


Okay, so what about skills?  Most of my skills have a "base damage" to them.  Well, if they do any kind of damage at all, anyway (a large chunk of my skills are situational and aren't out there to do damage to enemies... merely turn the tide of battle... quickly).  Okay, let's take a basic Fire spell.  a.mat + 10 - b.mdf.  Base damage of 10!  Pretty cool, right?  So, even if your Magic skill is 0... it still does 10 damage minus the enemy's magic defense.  The character who starts with this spell actually starts with 15 Magic.  Okay, same slime.  What is its Magic Defense stat?  10.  15+10-10.  Crap, its defense nullifies your base damage!  Oh well, doesn't matter.  15 Damage and that slime is dead in one shot.  Holy crap, you nuked that monster!  What if I don't want you to magically nuke that monster?  Oh, that's easy, I can half damage taken from Fire so you'll do 7 or 8 damage instead of 15.  Or, I can simply bump up its Magic Defense stat by about 10 or 12 points to make it 20 or 22 and you're suddenly doing 5 or 3 damage to it a hit.


For me, these low numbers and lack of multiplicative skill formulas (oh, they're in the game, they're just not used how you'd typically use them...) make balancing much easier.  I simply decide "how many turns do I want this monster to kill a party member in" and "how many turns I want a party to kill this monster in".  It's easy to balance against current equipment and skills because I simply make a list of these things at each point in the game.


As for the question about a damage formula creating strategy...  Eh, it's what all my damage formulas are meant to do.  They're meant to promote a little bit of strategy.  I have a skill that has "(a.mhp - a.hp) * 1.5".  What does that mean?  It means the more damaged you are... the more damage you'll do with this skill.  Missing 100 HP?  You'll do 150 damage.  Damage on this naturally scales with you depending on how much total HP you've got as well as how much of that total HP you're missing.  Early game, this skill might do a maximum of 30 damage.  Mid game, you might be doing upwards of 300+ damage to an enemy with it.


I even have other skills that target other enemy stats as their defense (like Luck) for their damage and etcetera.  You can do quite a lot with your damage formulas if you explore a bit.


But, me, personally?  I'd rather have low but meaningful damage than high but meaningless damage.  I like to know that getting 3 points into Attack makes me ACTUALLY stronger... instead of FRACTIONALLY stronger.  But, that's just me.  That's how I like my RPGs.
 

Carduus

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I've read through this three times and still can't find the rude/mean part, so it either went over my head, or you're not half as mean as you think you are. :)  Thanks for the in-depth answer!
 

jonthefox

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In one of my games I gave the player the formula as part of the skill description.  There was very little feedback on that specific detail, and what there was boiled down to "I didn't really take much notice of it."  Which isn't to say that giving the info was a waste of time, after all, there might well have been players who did find it interesting/useful/intriguing/whatever, but didn't give feedback.  But I must admit, I was a bit disappointed that it seemed to have such a minimal impact.


It was in Tale of a Common Man, correct?   If I remember correctly, I really liked having that info in the skill description, except that I wished it was more intuitive. Like let's say the default attack was 4*atk - 2*def...then for a skill that was 6*atk - 2*def, I'd rather it just say "does 50% bonus damage".


Re: the OP, I am a big fan of damage = a.atk - ((100 - b.def) * 0.01).   Similar to bgillisp's, but even more intuitive...your atk is how much dmg you do, and the def is the percentage of damaged mitigated.   It's very transparent for the player and it also makes balancing a lot easier.  It's true there are some drawbacks to it, which I won't go into here, but no formula is perfect, and the reason I prefer this one is because I really hate when players go back and fight low-level monsters and all of the damage gets reduced to 1.  These monsters should be easy, but not to the point where each attack of theirs is doing less than 1% of the target's HP.  There are other damage formulas that can also accomplish this, but none that would be transparent to the player, which again I also care about.  Why do I care about transparency?  Same reason as to why the 1 damage thing is a big pet peeve of mine--just personal preference.  I like games where the player is given a variety of strategic choices and can intuitively grasp the mechanics of how these choices will impact results.  Then if you have a lot of interesting scenarios where the player's choices dictate the outcome, that's what makes combat fun for me in a jrpg.  
 

Kes

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@jonthefox Yes, it was Tale of a Common Man.  Not getting much feedback was one reason why I dropped it for A Timely Intervention, but there is also the question of how much a player can understand without access to the database.  For example, it is very easy to see in the following formula that the higher the agility, the more damage.  Ignore the [1].max bit, that's just to ensure that there is always some damage done.


[a.atk*2 + a.agi*1.75 - b.def*2, 1].max


But what is a player to make of


b.state?(93)? 0 : (a.atk*4 - b.def * 2) + ((a.atk*15 - b.def * 1) * (a.mhp - a.hp)/a.mhp)


Easier just to say that the attack gets stronger the lower the user's HP.
 

bgillisp

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I will say that what damage formula you use does depend heavily on how much HP the players and monster have. The default damage formula of 4 * a.atk - 2 * b.def would be insane if everyone had 10 HP and 30 ATK, 10 DEF (one hit kill everyone), but is terrible if everyone has 5 digit HP in your game world. So that is something that you will have to factor in as well.


For example: @jonthefox version of my damage formula is great if you have low HP (say double digit HP, and three digit HP is rare), but would be terrible in my game as everyone starts with about 200 HP or so. So it is all relative to how you are setting up and dealing with your HP as well. 
 

TheRiotInside

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I really enjoy the idea of minimizing the number of different stats down to what is absolutely necessary while still keeping the experience fresh for the player. This has led me to recently trim down to 5 elements (four alchemy elements plus neutral for standard weapons and physical attacks) and also the removal of the standard attack/defense stats. What I'm left with right now is a few stats that have a singular purpose. It looks something like this:


HP (0-10000)


Agility (turn order only, 0-1000)


Luck (Critical Hit rate only, 0-100)


Then 5 power stats for the 5 elements (0-1000)


And 5 resistance stats for the 5 elements (0-100%, can go negative also)


This way damage calculation is extremely easy. I just take the attack element and a multiplier, then apply the % resistance to it. No funky math happening, real simple. Powers increase with levels and equipment, while resistances are equipment only, and the monster HP and resistances are visible in battle. I know there are arguments for it, but I'm trying to take the messy guesswork out of the battles for the most part, and this seems to work well so far.


If you're using the standard attack and defense stats, my tried and true method that I will fight for to my grave is similar to what has been mentioned:


Multiplier * Attack^2 / Defense


I can elaborate if necessary, but you really aren't going to find something much better than this for ease of use and balancing purposes.
 

LaFlibuste

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I find the idea of minimalist systems and low stats very very sexy too, but in my experience there are three caveats:
1) It is much harder to balance. In a system with big numbers, HPs in the 4 digits, what is a 10 damage more (or less)? But with HPs consistantly in the two digits, 10 damage is a very big deal, so you have to be very careful about stat/equipment growth.


2) Speaking of growth, minimalist systems are very effective as long as you are in at the lower end of the power spectrum, but if you plan to hit 3 or more digits with your stats, your formulas could go to hell in the late game and be very unadapted. So this leaves you with three choices: creating very short game where you won't have much time to grow, having minimal growth over the course of your game, such that each point of growth will be very significant but the sparsity of it might feel unexciting, or growing your characters in other dimensions than stats, like maybe stats won't budge TOO much but you'll learn varied skills that open new tactical avenues. All of these options can work, but they typically require more thought and carefulness than traditional high-powered systems.


3) Also a spin-off of number one, higher systems offer more room for customization. By which I mean, you have a larger spectrum for different power levels which could allow more classes or build types. You only have 5 options between 1 and 5, but you have hundreds between 100 and 500. Sure, the difference between 325 and 375 might feel quite unsignificant, but it allows diversity. So the warrior hits a bit than the ranger at the price of a bit of speed or whatever, yay. Still, it allows you to have both a ranger and a warrior instead of having an iron-armored warrior and an identical green jumpsuit warrior. As a side note, randomness. High powered systems have more room for variance. It might feel a bit unsignificant and again you might wonder why you'd want variance, but still, variance between 5 and 10 is much more oticeable/unbalancing than variance between 100 and 200 in a high-powered system.


So my general conclusion on this would be I strive towards the low-powered end of the spectrum but try to keep in mind the maximum I aim for so everything remains balanced, which usually sets me in some sort of middle ground.

I'd also like to respond to this:
 

I'm currently in the process of removing MAG and MDF from my game, meaning that all skills and spells will work with the same Power (ATK) and Armor (DEF) stats, and very sparingly giving actors/enemies states that provide percentage resistance to all magic or all physical attacks in cases where one or the other should clearly work better based on that enemy or equip.  I haven't started the playtesting cycle yet to determine its ultimate effect, but my instinct is that it's going to provide a lot more clarity for the player in the magnitude of damage they will deal or take.  I even thought about removing DEF as well and rolling it into HP, which is something I might do in future games.

I think it really boils down to your system and its flexibility. It also encourages variety of tactics. For instance, the magic stats are typically there so the mage can hit hard with his spells but his physical attack is puny. But if you merge them with the physical stats, warriors have to potential to cast spells as powerful as wizards and wizards will wield weapons like berzerkers. To avoid this, you would either have to rely heavily on classes set in stone so warriors simply cannot gain access to potent spells and wizards are stuck with equipping puny weapons. In other words, you remove meaningfulness from the stats and shift it towards skills and equips. Which is not bad per se as long as it is a conscious design decision.


Same goes for defenses, if you want beefy barbarians to defend differently from an axe swing than from a mind strike, you shift meaningfulness away from the stats towards elemental resistances or whatever.

It's actually kind of what they did with FF6 to allow such a large roster of character who could become pretty much anything. They had stat variance, but it meant relatively little compared to the equips they wore and the spells they learned. 


Also, a lot of my points aim towards build variety, but if you are creating a single-hero RPG, who cares? All of it has to be careful, conscious design choices.


As for rolling DEF into HP, its direct consequence is healing efficiency. In traditional systems, a high def knight and a high hp barbarian might each be able to tank more or less the same amount of hits before keeling over, but each point of healing is much more potent on the knight. Which might be a tradeoff for the barbarian's higher offense. I'm personally not very favorable to this idea.

So in conclusion, I'd say I'm generally in favor of trying to keep the quantity of stats as low as possible but a low number of stats for its own sake is not necessarily a good thing. Your amount of stats has to be just what you need for your system to work out, no more, no less. A lot fo RPGs have 6 stats, but who cares if you only need 4? Trying to force extra stats in (such as that wisdom conversation) is just poor design if you ask me.
 

Wavelength

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I'd also like to respond to this:
 

I'm currently in the process of removing MAG and MDF from my game, meaning that all skills and spells will work with the same Power (ATK) and Armor (DEF) stats, and very sparingly giving actors/enemies states that provide percentage resistance to all magic or all physical attacks in cases where one or the other should clearly work better based on that enemy or equip.  I haven't started the playtesting cycle yet to determine its ultimate effect, but my instinct is that it's going to provide a lot more clarity for the player in the magnitude of damage they will deal or take.  I even thought about removing DEF as well and rolling it into HP, which is something I might do in future games.

I think it really boils down to your system and its flexibility. It also encourages variety of tactics. For instance, the magic stats are typically there so the mage can hit hard with his spells but his physical attack is puny. But if you merge them with the physical stats, warriors have to potential to cast spells as powerful as wizards and wizards will wield weapons like berzerkers. To avoid this, you would either have to rely heavily on classes set in stone so warriors simply cannot gain access to potent spells and wizards are stuck with equipping puny weapons. In other words, you remove meaningfulness from the stats and shift it towards skills and equips. Which is not bad per se as long as it is a conscious design decision.


Same goes for defenses, if you want beefy barbarians to defend differently from an axe swing than from a mind strike, you shift meaningfulness away from the stats towards elemental resistances or whatever.

It's actually kind of what they did with FF6 to allow such a large roster of character who could become pretty much anything. They had stat variance, but it meant relatively little compared to the equips they wore and the spells they learned. 


Also, a lot of my points aim towards build variety, but if you are creating a single-hero RPG, who cares? All of it has to be careful, conscious design choices.


As for rolling DEF into HP, its direct consequence is healing efficiency. In traditional systems, a high def knight and a high hp barbarian might each be able to tank more or less the same amount of hits before keeling over, but each point of healing is much more potent on the knight. Which might be a tradeoff for the barbarian's higher offense. I'm personally not very favorable to this idea.

So in conclusion, I'd say I'm generally in favor of trying to keep the quantity of stats as low as possible but a low number of stats for its own sake is not necessarily a good thing. Your amount of stats has to be just what you need for your system to work out, no more, no less. A lot fo RPGs have 6 stats, but who cares if you only need 4? Trying to force extra stats in (such as that wisdom conversation) is just poor design if you ask me.


Well said!  Absolutely, designing around minimalist stat systems needs to be a conscious design decision, because it precludes you from using certain minor gameplay mechanics (like having enemies take different damage from physical or magical attacks) or at least forces you to push those mechanics into other systems (like elemental resistances).  In my own game, when I considered the upshot of not having these mechanics available, I decided the reduction in complexity was absolutely worth it.


The way I handled the combination of ATK and MAG into a single stat (also called ATK) was to reduce the stat for mages (etc.) and then power up the ATK-based scaling on their spells much more to compensate.  This way, their basic attacks are still fairly weak but their spells deal as much as damage as when they were MAG-based.


Similarly, for DEF and MDF (now rolled into DEF) I decided it would be much easier for players to understand why they are dealing X amount of damage if enemies have a single defense stat (and would be far clearer than that, even, if the DEF stat were removed so all enemies took approximately the same damage from the same action - but as you mentioned, there are other consequences too, e.g. flattening healing effectiveness).  This removed the ability of each character to naturally be a little more effective against certain foes, but I didn't think players would have an easy time identifying which type of damage to use on which foe anyhow - so I was alright axing it.  For a few enemies that should clearly have a resistance to physical or magic attacks (e.g. Ghosts vs Phys damage), I added easy-to-see "elemental" resistances.


The best-designed games add as many cool decisions as possible with as few complexities as possible (this is a great thought exercise for any game designer: figure out how your favorite game could be reduced in complexity without losing any of the things you love about it) - and they make those decisions easy for the player to understand by providing clear information when the player needs it!
 
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I use the following formula's for my damage:


(ATK^2/DEF) + 1


ATK=LVL^2
DEF=LVL^2


With weapons and class and buffs adding slightly to LVL (about a +/- 20% difference).


So Basically speaking : a.LVL^4/b.LVL^2


This allows for a big damage and stat growth in the beginning, but a small damage growth later on in the game.


So at


lvl 1 vs lvl 1 = 2 Damage
lvl 2 vs lvl 2 = 5 Damage ( up 150 % from lvl 1)
lvl 2 vs lvl 1 = 17 Damage (240% more than normal)
lvl 5 vs lvl 1 = 626 Damage 


Which means that in the beginning a level seems like a big deal, while later on :


lvl 49 vs lvl 49 = 2402 Damage
lvl 50 vs lvl 50 = 2500 Damage (up 4% from level 49)
lvl 50 vs lvl 49 = 2603 Damage (4% more then normal)
lvl 50 vs lvl 45 = 3068 Damage (20% more than normal)
lvl 50 vs lvl 55 = 2066 Damage (20% less than normal


So a level 50 could feasibly go up against a lvl 55 monster, but a lvl 45 monster isn't toothless either.


This all fits with my goal of having a linear beginning and a more open middle and end of my game, 
while also allowing the party to take a weaker teammember along without it being immediately glassed. 
Level grinding is discouraged later in the game, but beginners can still benefit from an early level grind boost.
 

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