Damage Types - Expanded

[aliensalmon]

Q1: What elements would you use in a game, and why?

The classic eight (Fire, Ice, Electricity/Lightning/Thunder, Water, Wind, Earth, Holy/Light, and Darkness)

Physical/Normal

Other elements based off Pokemon types:

Nature (plant-based attacks)

Metal

Mind/Psychic

Fighting (Martial Arts and Aura/Spirit Energy)

Ghost

In total, that's 14.

I'm thinking about adding "Dragon" to my game, making it 15....

Q2: How many elements/damage types is too much to you?

For me, the sky's the limit but I have trouble thinking up more than 20 elements.

Q3: What other combinations have you seen/come up with, and where did you see them?

See above, in Pokemon.

Q4: If a game had 40+ elements to it would you play it?

I suppose. As long as the game is good, that's all that matters.

Q5: If a game had tons of elements but only made the player aware of some of them, would that be a good mechanic?

I don't know. Probably not.

[NEW] Q6: If the elements were layered, such as a bow is Physical/Piercing/Ranged would having more elements be okay? (This would mean if you had resistances to one of these you would have some protection from that weapon)

That would be pretty cool.

 

[ShadowHawkDragon]

This is a long post but has 2 different Ideas on how elements may work.

One possible solution is "Associations".

Associations basically work like this:

You have a grid: Let's keep it simple-

[A1], [A2], [A3]

[b1], [b2], [b3]

[C1], [C2], [C3]

This is actually an interesting idea and if presented with a grid like this to the players it wouldn't be all that difficult to learn the relationships, but please don't have separate offensive and defensive affinities, not when the weakness aren't evenly balanced...

In Pokemon, Ice type moves were arguably among the best due to killing dragon types. To offset this they gave Ice 4 weaknesses and only one resistance (ice)... making it the worst type defensively. To make matters worse, most water types could nearly always learn some form of ice move with only 2 weaknesses and 4 resistances. So why use an Ice pokemon when you could just use a water type with ice moves; so what if you lose the Same Type Attack Bonus?

Back to the example grid:

the middle one (B2) is the best defensive type to have (only takes 2x damage from 4 sources) but is the worst offensively (five types at 1x- damage with the other four at 2x).

the corner elements however are the best offensive elements (three 2x, two 3x, one 4x) but thanks to the having six 2x+ weaknesses they are the worst at defensive elements.

now, with offensive and defensive affinities locked to the same; the corner types become high risk high reward, whereas the middle is low risk low reward (because of this it would be used mostly as a tank though...).

In my opinion, its less the number of elements but how they are balanced with one another and how easy it is for the player to remember the affinities, as well as the advantages to using the right elements on the right targets. For this reason triangle/circle relationships are most common and the easiest to balance. Personally, I rather all types/elements to have the same number of weaknesses and strengths, that way it matters not if you mix elements for offence and defense.

I for one am only using 3 (4 in late game) elements in my game's design but the battle system is heavily tied to using the right elemental skills to either (instantly) kill the enemies, or block special attacks with the right elemental shield; too many elements would actually reduce the tactical value since if even one of the player's attacks get through (of any element) then that enemy is deleted, literally.

 

[cybrim]

But at the same time Chrono Trigger BROKE elements for me where Chrono Cross FIXED them, Chorno Cross used elements to MAXIMUM potential and Chrono Trigger basically Said, "Well screw it, you have 2 characters without elements." and then my jaw was on the floor... I couldn't believe it when I got to the future I had a character without an element, the robot should have been lightning and the cave woman should have been earth... would that have been too hard to claim? Chorno Cross' "Elements" were both loose and tight: Water & Ice =Blue, Earth and Lightning = Yellow, Fire & Molten Earth = Red, Things that are Bright = White, Things that are Dark = Black, Plants & WInd = Green. Using a Chrono Cross association is MUCH easier to use as you don't have to balance so many "Elements" but you do have to justify a few things, I'd have made Wind/Lightning & Earth/Plant rather than how it was but I can see why it was done the way it was.

 

[TheGamedawg]

If you're going for a simple game, 4 elements in enough.  If you want to go complex you could really have as many elements as you want, within reason.  Personally, I like to be somewhere between 4-10.

 

[Tai_MT]

I originally posted about 'Physical' vs 'Melee and Ranged' here: http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/53484-physical-vs-ranged-melee/


But I though more in depth to the point of things and wondered what other people thought on other elements and how in depth should a game go before it get's too complicated for a player?


I made the following list as a base for things that can grow or shrink for any player.


  Core   Elements 1   Elements 2   Special 1 Slashing 1 Phisical 1 Incorperial 1 Magic 2 Piercing 2 Melee 2 Ranged 2 Rune 3 Bludgeoning 3 Fire 3 Ice 3 Psionics 4 Non-Elemental 4 Earth 4 Wind 4 Time 5 Poison 5 Light 5 Dark 5 Sonic 6   6 Holy 6 Unholy 6   7   7 Electricity 7 Water 7   8   8   8   8  


D&D uses slashing piercing and bludgeoning, where some games want melee vs ranged and other just straight up use physical.


When it comes to elements sometimes it is as simple as


 - Earth Fire Wind Ice


This will leave things in it like Electricity falls under fire, and water is in ice.


So I leave you all with these questions:


Q1: What elements would you use in a game, and why?



Q2: How many elements/damage types is too much to you?



Q3: What other combinations have you seen/come up with, and where did you see them?



Q4: If a game had 40+ elements to it would you play it?



Q5: If a game had tons of elements but only made the player aware of some of them, would that be a good mechanic?


[NEW] Q6: If the elements were layered, such as a bow is Physical/Piercing/Ranged would having more elements be okay? (This would mean if you had resistances to one of these you would have some protection from that weapon)


Feel free to ask your own questions as well. I will be following this post, and will answer when I can.






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EDIT: I never answered my own questions


A1: I am up in the air on this one and it would mainly be based on what kind of game it was. But I like the basic Melee/Ranged and Earth Water Fire Air


A2: It really varies as I wouldn't mind a lot if the game didn't fully rely on them.


A3: Pokemon, Chrono Chross, Final Fantasy, There have been a lot.


A4: Not unless it was done really well.


A5: My opinion is no. Though I keep getting told of games with secret aspects, so I was curious on what others thought.


A6: I would be okay with this.


On a side note Does anyone have any info on this?





 

Q1:  I use the elements I'm already using.  Physical, Magical.  Physical is broken down into Slashing, Piercing, and Blunt.  Magical is broken down into Fire, Water, Lightning, Ice, Earth, Wind, Nature, Life, and Death.  It is possible to have both a Physical type attack and a Water type attack at the same time.  I also have "Silver" and "Lead" which simply make Blunt weaponry more powerful against certain enemies (like enemies that wear Plate Mail or its equivalent).


Q2:  For me, a matter of "too much" is simply when they've been spread thin.  If each "element" is only good against a single thing, then why bother with elements at all?  If each one has 3 advantages or more, however, then there aren't "too many" for me.


Q3:  Pretty much everything I use has been used somewhere before.  I like Swords and Sorcery when I make games, most of the time, so I don't dabble in things like Psionics and other nonsense.


Q4:  Depends on how useful the elements are and how easy they are to obtain and swap.  40 seems steep, but it could be made manageable with a skilled enough dev.


Q5:  No.  The player should always be made aware when new elements come into play, or when they'd be available from the start.  If you don't make players aware of the elements and what they do, they may never discover that extra elements even exist or even what they do.


Q6:  I have layered my own elements.  As long as the layering makes sense and doesn't make the overall effect too powerful, I'd say it's okay.  Ex:  Physical, Blunt, Lead.

 

[maxdiba]

personally i prefer melee ranged and elements ...simple and easy to manage for players. Too many elements lead to skills with limited/useless effect

 

[Tech]

A1: Slashing: Represents sweeping attacks with a blade. Has a Slight chance (20%) chance to cause Bleeding (5% HP degen).
Piercing: Represents stabbing attacks with a blade. Has a Significant (30%) chance to cause Bleeding.
Bludgeoning: Represents blunt force trauma. Has a Slight chance to stun (cannot take an action for 1-2 turns).
Rending: Represents tearing and has a direct result on enemy armor. Has a Major (50%) chance to cause Bleeding and Rend (-100% armor)
Mortal: Represents a direct attack against a vital organ. Massive (75%) chance to cause Debilitate (Locks down attack, 5% HP degeneration)
Chemical: Represents poison damage. Encompasses Cytotoxins (23% HP degen), Neurotoxins (10% HP degen, confuse) and acid (-100% armor, 10% HP degeneration)
Fire: Represents burning and extreme heat. Significant chance to cause Burning (10% HP degen)
Lightning: Represents electrical damage. Slight chance to cause Stun and Disruption (locks down Special abilities, 10% MP degen).
Ice: Represents Frostbite.
Sonic: Represents bardic songs and respects magic defense 3X instead of the regular 2X.
Morale: Represents the will and emotions of a character. Morale damage doesn't have a specific status effect, but can influence emotions. For example, Fear has a Slight chance of causing an enemy to flee, while Master's Kiss has a Significant chance to cause Charm.
Light: Represents positive supernatural influence, such as the loving correction of God. Has a Slight chance to cause Burning.
Dark: Represents negative supernatural influence, such as curses or necromancy. Has a Slight chance to cause Necrosis (13% HP degen) and a Major chance to cause Corruption (-13% max HP)
Chaos: Everything all at once, therefore no resistance to it. Insignificant (10%) chance to cause any status effect. Very few spells cause Chaos damage.

You may have noticed I am fond of damage-over-time.

A2: I am a firm beleiver in "the more the merrier".

A3: Pass

Q4: The more you ad the more complicated things get. I'm not sure anyone could come up with 40 elements.

A5: You have to explain things so the player can use it or you're cheating.

A6: Weapons that do multiple damage types at once should respect the various resistances to those types.

 

[Redeye]

A1: Slashing: Represents sweeping attacks with a blade. Has a Slight chance (20%) chance to cause Bleeding (5% HP degen).
Piercing: Represents stabbing attacks with a blade. Has a Significant (30%) chance to cause Bleeding.
Bludgeoning: Represents blunt force trauma. Has a Slight chance to stun (cannot take an action for 1-2 turns).
Rending: Represents tearing and has a direct result on enemy armor. Has a Major (50%) chance to cause Bleeding and Rend (-100% armor)
Mortal: Represents a direct attack against a vital organ. Massive (75%) chance to cause Debilitate (Locks down attack, 5% HP degeneration)
Chemical: Represents poison damage. Encompasses Cytotoxins (23% HP degen), Neurotoxins (10% HP degen, confuse) and acid (-100% armor, 10% HP degeneration)
Fire: Represents burning and extreme heat. Significant chance to cause Burning (10% HP degen)
Lightning: Represents electrical damage. Slight chance to cause Stun and Disruption (locks down Special abilities, 10% MP degen).
Ice: Represents Frostbite.
Morale: Represents the will and emotions of a character. Morale damage doesn't have a specific status effect, but can influence emotions. For example, Fear has a Slight chance of causing an enemy to flee, while Master's Kiss has a Significant chance to cause Charm.
Light: Represents positive supernatural influence, such as the loving correction of God. Has a Slight chance to cause Burning.
Dark: Represents negative supernatural influence, such as curses or necromancy. Has a Slight chance to cause Necrosis (13% HP degen) and a Major chance to cause Corruption (-13% max HP)
Chaos: Everything all at once, therefore no resistance to it. Insignificant (10%) chance to cause any status effect. Very few spells cause Chaos damage.

You may have noticed I am fond of damage-over-time.

I like that you added special effects to each damage type, but I feel that, regardless of the effects you put down, most of your elements still feel similar. Most of your elements cause Damage over Time effects, in which I ask, if they all just have a chance to apply DoT states, then what's the difference? They just deal damage. No side-effects. Some may deal more damage than others, yes, but other than that, there's no difference. All of your Elemental DoT States deal Percent-Based Damage (Please don't do this, I'd highly recommend that you switch to Formula-Based DoT.), a lot of your elements have REPEATING side-effects from previous elements, and you also run at the risk of throwing your game off-balance due to the potential to stack countless states onto your foes, DoTing them into oblivion.

I'd suggest that you give your elements more defining traits. Bleeding caused by Slashing and Piercing shouldn't JUST deal damage, but perhaps also have the ability to reduce healing done against the Bleeding victim as well. Bludgeoning or Rending Attacks could ignore a portion of the foe's armor altogether, and have a chance of completely shattering their armor in a single blow. Fire Attacks could have high variance, making their damage unpredictable, as is Fire in real life. Lightning Attacks could deal damage to both HP and MP at the same time. Morale Attacks could exclusively deal damage to MP instead of HP. There are many possibilities to this.

Back on topic, I usually have around 6-8 elements in my games, short and sweet. I tend to use the typical elements, depending on the setting. My current game uses 8 Elements.

Melee Damage, tends to deal more damage against land enemies, and is the most common physical element.
Ranged Damage, tends to deal more damage against flying enemies, and is the least common physical element.
Arcane Damage, inflicted by pure mystic magic, and is considered to be the "physical" magic element. Arcane Spells tend to inflict completely randomized debuffs or apply crowd control effects.
Fire Damage, typically the most offensive of the elements. Fire Spells tend to have high variance, causing their damage to be unpredictable and have a chance to deal extremely massive damage or extremely poor damage. Fire Spells also regularly inflict Burning.
Frost Damage, the least offensive of the elements. Frost Spells are generally weaker than most, but they have the power to apply crippling crowd control effects.
Earth Damage, the most unusual of the elements. Earth Spells are rather typical, and have low variance, making their damage very predictable. They are also capable of inflicting common Status Ailments normally inflicted via physical attacks.
Divine Damage is a combination of the Holy and Lightning elements. Divine Spells inflict a balance of both DoT and Crowd Control effects, but some Divine Spells also have the potential to instantly kill weak foes.
Shadow Damage is a weird one. Commonly associated with the Unholy and Blood elements. Shadow Spells inflict a myriad of DoT effects, and some tend to have the trait of stealing HP from their foes.

I don't consider Water and Wind to be separate elements because they don't make sense to me. I mean, Water? Dealing Damage? A gust of wind that can break your bones?

Elements in games should be kept short, or at least mid-ranged. Exceeding 10 or 12 Elements is too much, unless you can find a way to make each and every single element unique and interesting.

Leaving your players in the dark about your game's mechanics is also a surefire way of confusing them and causing them to quit. And multiple damage types on a single piece of equipment / spell is fine, but you'll have to fine-tune the system in order to make Elemental Combos interesting, worthwhile, and balanced. What's the point of shooting and Icefire Projectile at a Fire Spirit if it'll only take damage from the Ice portion of the Spell? You'll have to keep questions like that in mind if you ever think of doing that.

 

[Tai_MT]

Fire Damage, typically the most offensive of the elements. Fire Spells tend to have high variance, causing their damage to be unpredictable and have a chance to deal extremely massive damage or extremely poor damage. Fire Spells also regularly inflict Burning.
Frost Damage, the least offensive of the elements. Frost Spells are generally weaker than most, but they have the power to apply crippling crowd control effects.

I don't consider Water and Wind to be separate elements because they don't make sense to me. I mean, Water? Dealing Damage? A gust of wind that can break your bones? Sure, Water Pressure, Tidal Waves, Tornadoes, and Hurricanes exist, but in those situations, you're actually dealing with Gravity and Force, not water and wind themselves, even IF they're the ones causing it.

I'm sorry, I read this and couldn't help but laugh a little about it. See, you're generalizing "water" and "wind" as merely "gravity" and "force" damage. But, here you are, using Fire and Ice to do the same thing. They don't actually do damage on their own. It's the large temperature shift that does damage for these elements. It's the same silly generalization. You can't imagine one making sense (water and wind), but you have no problem with the other making sense despite it being the EXACT SAME POWER, just at opposite ends of the spectrum?

I mean, if you're going to unify "Wind" and "Water" magic under the unified spectrum of "Force", then why not "Fire" and "Frost" under the same unified spectrum of "Temperature"? In fact, why is "Earth" not also under the "Force" spectrum? After all, it's pretty much entirely gravity that does any damage with Earth magic. Unless we're talking outer space, in which case it is actually just regular Force, in which only mass is calculated. Why isn't your "Lightning" also under the same rubric of either Temperature or Force? After all, it does cause severe burns when it hits you... And it is a Force of nature... While we're at it, why aren't the Melee and Ranged attacks the same heading as simply "Physical Hits"? I mean, I can pierce you as easily with a sword, an axe, a spear, or a dagger as I can with an arrow. Why aren't they the same? What's also the difference between "Arcane" and any of the other elemental magic types? It's different because you say it is?

We'll be here all day if we start arguing the semantics of one element over another or their actual classifications. I'm not even kidding on that. But, in general, you split these into different elements due to the type of element that they are primarily controlled by. You could use wind magic to asphyxiate someone. Remove all the air around them with powerful wind. You could use water magic to pull all the water out of a living creature and turn it into dust. Generally speaking, when you split magic down into Elements of nature (fire, water, ice, lightning, earth, wind, etcetera), it means that it is what you are controlling to receive the desired effect in combat. One could even use Fire to create explosions, which would be nearly pure Force.

As for using them as weaknesses to monsters... Well, that's probably a bit more defined. Though, the rules of your particular worlds that you create will dictate what is weak to what and why (like lore reasons).

I dunno, it's just funny to see someone break down "elements" of magic and say "these ones make sense, but these ones don't". I mean, we're essentially applying modern science and real world justifications for something that's based pretty much entirely in fantasy.

Personally, I just prefer the elements do what they're meant to do, no matter how many there are. I think Pokémon has a whopping 18 elements and the reason an attack is one element type, but not another, will likely never be explained to us. How is a Dragon attack different from a standard Fire one? Or a standard Normal one? How is Bite a Dark attack while Scratch is a Normal?

Elements generally exist to give players options in combat. Maybe you want a faster way to kill the boss than smashing "Attack" all day long. So, you have a Water spell handy. Put out the Fire Spirit boss with Water and do a lot more damage. This also increases the usages of Magic in general as well as incentivizing you to keep a mage in your party.

I don't think it's also always important to give elements "extra effects". Really, the reason most people give elements "extra effects" is from a logical design decision of "players won't use a skill that ONLY inflicts a state on an enemy. They are more likely to inflict states if those states are tied to skills that do damage regardless of whether or not the state is inflicted". In short, The Element becomes a delivery mechanism for States that players wouldn't bother using otherwise (who tries to inflict states on anything except a boss anyway? regular monsters die in two or three hits in most games. And, most bosses are immune to most States as a rule, to make them more difficult... so... states are almost never used in combat unless tied to something that deals damage). Players don't cast "Fire" to inflict Burn. They cast Fire because Fire is damaging to plants and bugs and such. Getting a burn on top of that is just birthday candles in your delicious cake. As in, it's still a party if there aren't candles, but it's a special occasion if there are some candles.

Anyway, sorry if any of that seemed mean. I just had to comment after reading that, because I found it a little bit silly. You're allowed to have whatever elements you want with whatever explanation you want for why they exist. I just found it a little funny that you were like, "I don't use these elements because they're just Force and I can't imagine how that would work" instead of a reason like, "it just doesn't fit the setting" or "it doesn't fit the story" or "I didn't want to make any more elements than this". It was just a strange arbitrary reason that basically amounted to, "I don't believe these are real elements" when we're dealing with magic in fantasy settings.

So, once again, sorry if that sounded mean. I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just trying to point out why it sounds silly to me.

 

[Redeye]

snip

Meh, I guess I didn't think that one through, but I mostly don't count Water and Wind as damaging elements because they feel less impactful compared to the others, imo.

 

[HarmonyGames]

Q1: What elements would you use in a game, and why?
A. Generic : Fire, Ice, Earth, Thunder, Wind, Dark, Holy
Physical : Piercing, ranged, and Blunt
Other : Time, Sound

I add physical elements because I want to make each "attack" is more balanced. And adding elements in normal attack will make the game less "button" mashing. In my game, there's no way to identify the enemy weakness(es) through a scan skill, you've to figure it by yourself.

Q2: How many elements/damage types is too much to you?
A . 20 elements. Sometimes less is more.

Q3: What other combinations have you seen/come up with, and where did you see them?
A. Pokemon

Q4: If a game had 40+ elements to it would you play it?
A. No. That's too much for me, personally. My game has 12 elements, and they're quite pain to manage.

Q5: If a game had tons of elements but only made the player aware of some of them, would that be a good mechanic?
A. It depends, for a game like Pokemon I think it's a good idea.
If you've only around 5-6 playable characters, there's not much room for variations of 40-50 elements. (lol)
And do you think players will remember all 40 elements at once?

[NEW] Q6: If the elements were layered, such as a bow is Physical/Piercing/Ranged would having more elements be okay? (This would mean if you had resistances to one of these you would have some protection from that weapon)
A. Hard to answer