Day and Night Cycle - yes or no?

[Piyan Glupak]

I like to have a day/night cycle. However, if you have shops or city gates that don't open until morning, it is a nice idea to have a "Rest" option on the main menu, which moves time along one or two hours. In my game it also restores a small number of HP and MP, but is not allowed in dangerous areas.

 

[BubblegumPatty]

Tai_MT ,Don't forget the "RP" in "RPG" stands for Role playing, which is what Immersion stuff like a fully implemented Day/day cycle are meant to help facilitate. Same reason why Skyrim lets you eat food even though it doesn't heal very much, Gives you a little buff for sleeping 8 hours, allows you to buy houses, marry, and adopt children even though their mechanical benefit is minute at best. A lot of people like me, sometimes like to feel like I'm someone in the world rather than some weird, outside freak of nature that does nothing but make deliveries and kill things.
And to solve the waiting problem, Skyrim has a built in loiter button to make time pass if you just really need a store or NPC Right now. I don't think day/Night cycles are anywhere near the headache of a bladder meter or "If you get hit once you die bc that's more realistic then a HP meter".

 

[Tai_MT]

@BubblegumPatty

The problem lies in that "needing it to be nighttime" isn't really useful for anyone who isn't just straight up playing in a "I made my own character with their own backstory" sort of way. Which... isn't a lot of people who play video games, unless we're talking MMO's where you "role play" with other players... or tabletops... where you role play with other players.

Likewise, there's an issue in "what games will include for immersion, while keeping out other things".

Emulate Day and Night, but not days of the week, holidays, or even what happens in ACTUAL time passing (like people remembering your actions and reacting to your past actions). Yes, lets emulate time, but not what it would be like to be stuck in jail for 6 months for your murder spree. Yes, let's emulate time, but not what happens when you make NPC's late to their locations, or when you keep them up all night.

Put simply, the "time" thing doesn't exist for "immersion". It exists as a "half arsed idea" for one or two things and that's it. It exists because a game wants to include Stealth, pretty much universally. Or, because you have some mechanics where "the brothel doesn't open until it's night, same as the casino".

As for loitering... Yeah, sure, there's a way to "skip ahead", but should something like that REALLY need to exist in the first place? Can't wait somewhere "with enemies nearby" after all. Doesn't even matter if they can't see you and would never find you 'cause they never patrol the spot you're hiding in.

I, personally, find it difficult to "Role Play" when most of the systems you even mentioned aren't even "fleshed out" and are just an afterthought... like the version of how those things work in a 6 year old's doll house reality. I may as well be sitting at my kitchen table mashing action figures together at that point. That's my take on "eating food", "getting a buff for sleeping", "buying a house", "marrying", and "having children".

I can eat food? Nice! Oh, there's only like 20 things you can make. Thanks, I hate it.
I can sleep 8 hours? Nice! Let me devise a storyline in which it's important that I sleep 8 hours. Thanks, I hate it.
I can buy a house? Awesome! What can I do with it? I can't move furniture around? I can't install windows/doors where I want? I can't plant flowers outside? I can't wash dishes or anything? It's just a place to store my junk and "look nice"? Thanks, it's a 6 year old's doll house. How is this different from just playing pretend with children? Thanks, I hate it.
I can get married?! NICE! Oh, I can't just marry anyone? Has to be only specific people? None of them have personalities or anything endearing about them? None of them ever get angry? Have arguments? Have needs and desires of their own? Same with the children? So, they're just status sticks that exist? Thanks... I hate it.

I love Roleplaying. If games were better designed, i could actually do it. Instead, they put in random nonsense systems that are at most, 10% fleshed out for Roleplaying and only 3% fleshed out for people who just want to play the game, and do nothing else.

At which point I just go, "why bother? Spend your dev time creating something fun instead of whatever this abomination of terrible ideas was".

 

[Ms Littlefish]

Games will forever need to balance realism with fun. Some things are more realistic, but it’s not always more fun. Games also have to be approachable and comprehensible by the player, so I think there is such a thing as “too much stuff to do” and being “too realistic.” Not every game needs to do everything, though I definitely prefer they are functional and somewhat deep when used. I wouldn’t expect a house-building feature in a random RPG to be as deep as the SIMs but I’d want it to be more than a storage unit.

 

[Dark_Ansem]

Sometimes, "immersion" is detrimental to "fun". I don't want to feed and water my characters.

Not a fan of survival mods aye?

 

[TheoAllen]

As much as I would like to roleplay even in limited functionality (most of the time, I only need a system where I need to eat/drink and sleep, not much for everything else), I would say Skyrim functionality to eat and pick up everything are mostly for modding purposes. Not necessarily for roleplay.

That said, I do like roleplay. I like being forced to plan my path, stay in an inn during the storm, otherwise, I would die, etc. It is not necessarily I can do anything, but enough for me to imagine a narration in my head of why my character would do this and that.

Back to the topic, I voted no because I play games to play the game. Roleplay is secondary (if I can). I don't mind if it is an aesthetic only. I don't mind if it doesn't exist at all. I don't mind if it is also integrated with the system. In short, I just never care. But if it makes everything significantly harder like the visibility, then I'm going to hate it. Unless it is a deliberate mechanic that you shouldn't be walking in the dark and should sleep.

 

[gstv87]

-in Oblivion, as a vampire, you could feed off sleeping NPCs.
-in Lineage 2, ghosts would spawn in the forest at night.
-in Age Of Pirates, you could sneak into an enemy harbor undetected under a false flag.
-in D&D, darkness makes you roll at a disadvantage, unless you have night vision.
-in some NFS games, there's no night. The position of the sun affects how much glare you get from the road.

I remember AOP having a quest where you'd have to talk to a merchant at night, because during the day he'd be out on the plaza at his kiosk, and another one where you have to camp a bunch of smugglers entering their hideout.
in Oblivion, most of the quests involving the thieves guild are better done at night, because everyone will be *not at their usual posts* (be them their place of business, or their patrol routes). And, every other quest is better done during the day, because *breaking into a place* is a crime, and everything is locked.

 

[Tai_MT]

Not a fan of survival mods aye?

Nope. Especially since in any/every survival game or survival mod, once you're about two hours in... you have infinite food and water anyway, so it's not like such features "add" anything to the proceedings anyway. They're just another form of busywork.

They don't even make the game harder.

 

[Dark_Ansem]

just more tedious

 

[HankB]

I don't really do straight-up RPGs, but if I did, I'd probably only use a day/night cycle to move the story or character development forward. For example, certain NPCs only show up at night because they are imprisoned all day, and can only sneak out at night while the guard's asleep.

Or maybe you have a fishing element, where certain fish are much more likely to bite at night than in the morning. Or whatever. It would be easy to "justify" a day/night mechanic, but at the end of the day you have to ask "does this make the game more fun?".

 

[gstv87]

you have infinite food and water

you and I should do a coop run of Zomboid, just so you can hear your tummy rumble, and I be there to witness it XD

I just remembered Factorio has D/N as a main mechanic: at night, solar panels don't work.
no sun, no energy, no production, but also because of no production, no pollution.
same in Rimworld and Planetbase: no power at night, and no power during dust storms or cloudy weather, but, partial power during auroras.
in Rimworld, being in the dark (either underground or during an abnormal phenomenon) drains the mood of people.
and, in Lineage 2, Dark Elves have more accuracy at night, but its effect is negligible.

where certain fish are much more likely to bite at night than in the morning

L2 as well: night fishing requires glowing lure.
and, because of that, there's a whole system dedicated to fishing: locations, times, baits, products and exchanges.
it's been deprecated over the years, but it used to be integral part of the progression (a job change quest required a specific fish, so those item prices skyrocketed)

 

[atoms]

I would actually say depends on the game. It also depends on the skill, work and effort to do it well.

Honestly, a rushed day and night system would be bad, probably.

But if we mean with care and thought. Then I actually think it could improve any game in some ways as you get more to the visuals and environment etc. It might be a lot more work, depending on what other features the game offers, though. It might not fit in well, easily, in some games, too.

But does that mean every game needs it? No. Not really.

I wouldn't just put it into a simple dungeon crawler game unless I really feel this is a main feature I want to work on.

As long as you got some good features for your game and it's really working, then you don't necessarily need it at all, depending on the game. And that might work better for you.

But a game about looking after a farm or joining a new town/village or something similar to this probably would benefit way more, than some other games, to have a day/night system. They might benefit hugely from it and, without it, it may not be that great of a game.

Oh, but one important thing I forgot to add is if it's not adding any fun value to the game then it's probably better to scrap it, or not have it in the first place.

It's a hard question to answer because it's sort of yes, but not needed, but probably no, but definitely needed, but depends on the game...

I'd vote for yes though, just because it hugely benefits games in certain categories. As long as it fits and has meaning and is done well, for that game, anyway.

From my perspective and view though, I'm not making any game that needs it right now. I'm not having it. And if I want players to experience a visual map under a certain setting, I wouldn't want the time of day to switch, or maybe I'd want to control when and if it switches. Sure you can probably pause the system but I really don't need it in the first place.

So that's why I'm saying no for me, even though I felt to vote yes, for the games that benefit from having it.

 

[ZombieKidzRule]

I waited a long time to read through all the posts in this thread, but I finally did. I will just say that I agree with a lot of the points made.

I usually don't care if a game has a Day/Night system. Most of the older games I first started with didn't have that concept. And I certainly won't appreciate a Day/Night system if it is more of a hassle.

If it is just cosmetic and isn't a hassle. Don't care. If the game doesn't have it. I probably won't care.

But if a game has it and it is incorporated well with good reason behind it, then I will probably appreciate it.

A lot of the reasons to have a Day/Night system have already been mentioned and I can think of more that I would find interesting and fun.

The point has also been made that this is not unique to a Day/Night system. There are a lot of things that have been included in games that ultimately seem to have no impact or purpose. I would question all of those things.

So I voted yes, but it really depends on the game and how it is implemented.

 

[Tai_MT]

you and I should do a coop run of Zomboid, just so you can hear your tummy rumble, and I be there to witness it XD

Never really picked up that game. Mostly because my understanding of it is "there's no story, there's just play until you get bored". Which... I can play 7 Days to Die for that, I guess if I want.

I just remembered Factorio has D/N as a main mechanic: at night, solar panels don't work.

And it's difficult to see. Good thing you're better off never engaging in Solar Panels as bullets are cheap to manufacture, same as fuel for flamethrowers... and every form of power that isn't "Solar Panels" is just a ton more efficient.

Impact of day/night in Factorio just isn't that much.

no sun, no energy, no production, but also because of no production, no pollution.

Pollution is a negligable threat on anything except "Death World", but really the challenge in "Death World" is in just getting to really great military tech before the biters hit "final form" and become your "game over".

same in Rimworld and Planetbase: no power at night, and no power during dust storms or cloudy weather, but, partial power during auroras.
in Rimworld, being in the dark (either underground or during an abnormal phenomenon) drains the mood of people.

Yeah, Solar Panels are actually a lot more effective in Rimworld, so worth holding onto for quite some time. You can also just create colonists that live in tunnels so they don't get annoyed by the dark, too. Or... raise their moods via other methods so the moodlets from "being in the dark" don't really do anything negative to them at all. I just typically throw constant parties and it takes care of up to 4 major colony problems via mood.

 

[Mirroraculous]

So I definitely am in the camp of "Have it add something to the game", and there are some really cool ways to do it. Even days and weeks or whatnot can be done right, in such a way that it adds to the atmosphere. Of all things, the Yu-Gi-Oh! GX video games have one of the most solid in this regard, using its "Duel Academy" setting as a basis.

Traveling to different parts of the academy island and finding duelists takes time up on a meter that is a day/night cycle. Days of the week are displayed as well, and they have factors. Weekdays have the first part of the day taken up by school and some form of examinations are often certain days of the week depending on the game. For example in the DS Spirit Caller game, Mondays you have multiple choice quizzes on cards and mechanics. The GBA Tag Academy even has a full test with a quiz, timed duel, practical exam, and the ability to change your dorm ranking. In games like Tag Force for the PSP, different packs show up on different days too, and in most of the games, the stock of packs fluctuates on a daily basis and there is a day where they all restock.

Furthermore in Spirit Caller, one of the most interesting aspects takes place, the "Endless Night". In an Endless Night, the functioning clock stops at the end of the night for you to complete a main storyline quest. You don't go to your dorm, instead the night goes on. This means that any duelist or spirit that can appear at night will still be roaming, and you can duel them to grind for EXP to level up or DP for packs. The shop is even open, so if you need better cards or you reached the required level for a new card pack, you can get it. This is all optional too, you can just finish the quest and then go back to your dorm, but it is a nice way to "grind". There are not many games which would need this type of system in place, but it is very unique and something to think about.

Not every game though needs a day/night cycle, let alone a weekly system. But I bring forward the GX games as an example of what I think makes a system like this work. The day/night cycle brings forward the feel of being in the Academy's school schedule, the weekdays and the examination periods bring the Academy to life in their own ways. The "Endless Night" mechanic also doesn't just become a nice tool for the grind, but also adds tension to the scene because you know something big is about to happen. These are all aspects that are good not just for a good day/night cycle, but for any mechanic in a game. So what I would say is it is another aspect and a part of the game that must be respected in the same way that skills, classes, and other such mechanics should be treated.

 

[Piyan Glupak]

My new project lets the party sleep for free in a tent. I want to restrict it a little, so only letting them start a kip in the hours of darkness would probably work for this one. [Early game-play tests showed that it is too easy to sleep and pretty much full recover after every encounter.]

Edit: "kip" is slang for 'sleep'.

 

[pawsplay]

I think the only time I ever cared about day/night cycle was in Quest for Glory, avoiding the cheetaur, and in Pool of Radiance, the annoyance of waiting for shops to open.

 

[kirbwarrior]

Games will forever need to balance realism with fun.

This right here is the biggest supporting argument I've found against games trying to be realistic. If realism comes at the cost of enjoyment (not just fun), then you're literally making your game worse for seemingly no benefit. And considering that games aren't even 1% close to reality, trying to get closer to that 1% seems worthless. Plus, I'm already dealing with hunger and sleep systems in real life and all the other constant inconveniences reality brings, why would I want MORE of that?

 

[Yaptrap]

I think ultimately what you need to ask yourself is: Does having a day/night cycle ADD anything to the experience of my game?

I've seen a lot of designers in various fields and places increase the scope of their projects with random things, but the danger with that is that "more content" does not automatically equal "more good content". As such, you have to be wary that some things you want to add may actually REDUCE the overall experience, and you have to try and recognize whether any new feature represents an addition or a reduction of quality.

So why add a day/night cycle?

If the main reason is to have shops that are only open during the day, in effect you have merely created a system where your shops are arbitrarily inaccessible 50% of the time, which will be nothing but annoying to the player. That is a reductive feature.

If it's to have quests that can only be turned in at a specific time, again, you have merely made it so quest conclusions become arbitrarily locked off. That is a reductive feature.

To me, the only way to include this as an additive feature is if you can harness its power to flesh out your world. Why do your shops close at certain times? Maybe it's because the shopkeeper is an interesting character beyond her function as an item dispenser, and you can use the cycle to flesh out her life. Maybe if you go to the pub at night, you find her there, interacting with friends or family. Maybe by visiting her there, you can get a unique quest. Suddenly you have taken both the annoyance of limited shop accessibility and finicky quest timing, and reconstructed it in a way that enriches your worldbuilding. That is an additive feature.

Maybe there is a town that's very subdued and low-energy during the day, but comes to life as a wacky den of mirth and revelry at night. This uses the day/night cycle to give this place more personality. That is an additive feature.

Maybe there is a cool optional scene that you can only see if you go to a specific place at a specific time, and perhaps this is hinted at somewhere else, rewarding your attentive players for their curiosity and willingness to interact with your setting. That is an additive feature.

In the end, if you can think of enough ways to spin a day/night cycle into something that elevates the depth and uniqueness of your game, and you're willing and ready to shoulder all of the new work that comes with it, absolutely go for it. But if you do it just for its own sake, going through the standard motions of "eh, shop closed sometimes", maybe it's best to reconsider.

And always give the player a way to circumvent the reductive elements of this feature by giving them a "wait until (time)" option if they happen to arrive at town at night and all the doors are closed.

 

[Piyan Glupak]

...[snip]

And always give the player a way to circumvent the reductive elements of this feature by giving them a "wait until (time)" option if they happen to arrive at town at night and all the doors are closed.

Agree. Might and Magic 3 "Isles of Terra" could be irritating when you wanted to go to the bank, visit the shop (both only open during the day), and then buy spells from the spell guild that is only open at night.

In both my finished game and the new project, I give the player options to rest for either one or two hours at a time. In some of the dungeons (where there are no shops, city gates and so on opening and closing) I disable the "Rest" option (which restores a few HP and MP). The new one uses the "tent" system for sleeping, so you can only start to sleep from dusk to dawn, although you can have party interactions or rest during the day.