Death & Resurrection from a Lore perspective

[XIIIthHarbinger]

Greetings gentle peoples of the interwebs, I have a question to pose to you all.

Lately I've been thinking of integrating a permadeath mechanic into my game, while the reason for it is partially to increase investment in any given battle, the other reason for it is game world lore. Specifically, the idea of emotional investment in life & death conflict, & how when raising the dead is a common occurrence, it is often not being reflected culturally in the game world. As well as how having a readily made MacGuffin to override death, overturns the dramatic tension of the death of any given character, & creates a plot hole when not used by those who would presumably be motivated to do so.

A good example of this problem, is how the infamous Aerith death scene at the hands of Sephiroth, runs into a real problem as soon as someone asks "Why didn't they just cast Revive or use a Phoenix Down to save her?"

Personally, I am inclined to think this particular fantasy trope is far to often relied upon as a game mechanic, with little to no thought given to the wider implications & impacts to the world it occurs within. Thus I am inclined to remove the mechanic, largely for game world lore reasons.

However, I am curious to learn what all of you think about death & resurrection from a lore perspective, both as players & game developers.

How does the presence of resurrection mechanics impact the story for you as a player? As a developer do you use resurrection in your games? If so how do explain their operations from a lore perspective?

 

[Kyuukon]

In battle, I think of it as: the character becomes unconscious agonizing on the verge of death but you can still save them with restorative magic.

 

[The Stranger]

From a lore perspective, there is no returning from death in my world. During combat, characters don't kill one another outright, the protag knocks enemies out for the most part, and you can make a conscious decision to deliver the killing blow (devour them) afterwards. Likewise, enemies elect to finish the protag off (it's a single character game) if you are defeated in battle during a mini-cutscene.

 

[Mihe]

Everything doesn't need to have an explanation in my opinion. A character "dying" and then being revived in/outside battle as part of the mechanic is a common occurrence and is a trope for a reason- because it works; players enjoy the feeling of reviving their characters to hopefully turn the tides of battle in their favor. People can still grow attachments to your characters if they are presented well enough of course.

It can become more of an emotional approach for the player to experience a permanent character death because of a mistake they may have made during battle or some other decision-making. Then again, the player could always simply load to a previous save point.

There are many ways to deal with life and death and the demand for it in video gamed is prevalent. An example are the Nuzlocke challenges that people do in Pokemon games. So there are many people who do enjoy permadeath in a video game. It's up to the game creator whether or not to incorporate such a mechanic into their game.

 

[Grunwave]

Yeah XB, permadeath and rezzing is a weird issue. I do not find that any of your poll options match my opinion, so I will attempt to expound here:

(1) In my current project, characters who go to 0 HP are knocked out and revive after the fight with 1 HP. Similar to Advanced Dungeons & Dragons and its -10 HP = death mechanic. There are healing spells which will bring a character out of K.O.'d status, within my project.

(2) I feel like Warsong on the Genesis handled permadeath very well.

 

[bgillisp]

I actually explain it in my magic system. In my game, there are 8 elements of magic, one of them being Life, which focuses on healing magic. And it is actually stated in the story that with a Life Mage you can save someone as long as there is some life force present in them, though you may have to act fast to pull that off. In fact, there's a scene where the Life Mage explains they can save someone who had their head cut off, provided they act quickly enough.

However, if someone dies, that's it. They cannot bring them back, except as a skeleton in service to a Death Mage. In fact, my world also has many skeletons that wander around in undeath as they were brought back as one for some reason or another, and have wandered the world in undeath ever since.

As for battle, I have it that you are only knocked out, not killed. For this reason, you are also restored with 1 HP when battle ends if you were knocked out, as it is assumed the others in the party would wake you up. But, if the entire party is knocked out, that is it, Game Over. I don't actually state more on that, but its pretty safe to assume that hungry monster decides to make you all food if you are all knocked out.

 

[Mihe]

I actually explain it in my magic system. In my game, there are 8 elements of magic, one of them being Life, which focuses on healing magic. And it is actually stated in the story that with a Life Mage you can save someone as long as there is some life force present in them, though you may have to act fast to pull that off. In fact, there's a scene where the Life Mage explains they can save someone who had their head cut off, provided they act quickly enough.

However, if someone dies, that's it. They cannot bring them back, except as a skeleton in service to a Death Mage. In fact, my world also has many skeletons that wander around in undeath as they were brought back as one for some reason or another, and have wandered the world in undeath ever since.

As for battle, I have it that you are only knocked out, not killed. For this reason, you are also restored with 1 HP when battle ends if you were knocked out, as it is assumed the others in the party would wake you up. But, if the entire party is knocked out, that is it, Game Over. I don't actually state more on that, but its pretty safe to assume that hungry monster decides to make you all food if you are all knocked out.

For your game I just thought of something neat for an idea. You were explaining how the Life Mage can revive someone if they act quickly, correct? The first thing that came to my mind was Final Fantasy Tactics Advance. During the battle, the Life Mage can revive people, but if those people aren't revived before the battle is over, then they die for good. What do you think of that idea?

 

[bgillisp]

I think that could work, as you could explain it as they life force has left the body and there is nothing they can do for them now. As it is, I use it to mainly better explain how you can survive things like limbs being cut off or gaining a big gaping hole in your chest suddenly, both things that can kill someone very quickly in RL but in this case the Life Mage patches it up, makes the blood regenerate quickly (to replace what you lost) and heals/restores organs that are injured.

Of course, this also means that broken bones heal very fast too.

 

[trouble time]

Its a common misconception that the phoenix down revives the dead, but in most games the "death" state is actuallk just a knock out. Dragon quest is about the only one i cam think of that actually makes characters die and follow you as cute little coffins.

In my own game unless the party is wiped no one really dies, they're just knocked out. Lore wise 3 of the party members cant even be killed by physical means and would require the complete destruction of their soul to put down for good. Which is something thats practically impossible, but if their body's destroied they probably arent recovering for at least a few thousand years and need someone on the other side to bring them back via summoning ritual. The last is an Adene Elf, basically they're elves with an extremely militant culture, and she prides herself on being the strongest stereotype of that race possible, being tough enough that she has continued fighting despite such injuries as a knife through the forhead or a missing arm (thankfully healing magic can fix that.)

 

[XIIIthHarbinger]

From a lore perspective, there is no returning from death in my world. During combat, characters don't kill one another outright, the protag knocks enemies out for the most part, and you can make a conscious decision to deliver the killing blow (devour them) afterwards. Likewise, enemies elect to finish the protag off (it's a single character game) if you are defeated in battle during a mini-cutscene.

Interesting concept, from both a lore & mechanical perspective. With some potential moral story impacts based on those decisions as well.

However, I am curious; if there is no returning from death in your world, how do you explain the usual undead suspects ghosts, skeletons, zombies, etcetera?

Everything doesn't need to have an explanation in my opinion. A character "dying" and then being revived in/outside battle as part of the mechanic is a common occurrence and is a trope for a reason- because it works; players enjoy the feeling of reviving their characters to hopefully turn the tides of battle in their favor. People can still grow attachments to your characters if they are presented well enough of course.

I can understand how some people think the trope is common enough to not require explanation, but I honestly can't embrace such a perspective myself.

Perhaps, I am simply too inclined towards "hard magic" systems in my preferences; but I feel as though there must be set limits, concrete rules, & narratively coherent explanations for this sort of thing in video games, just as in any other story medium. Even if you don't explain the hows, whys, & wherefores in expositional dialogue to the player, as the "DM" for all intents & purposes of your game, I think you need set rules for the system to operate within; that if explained to the player are logically consistent enough to be readily embraced by the player, & not break their suspension of disbelief.

I actually explain it in my magic system. In my game, there are 8 elements of magic, one of them being Life, which focuses on healing magic. And it is actually stated in the story that with a Life Mage you can save someone as long as there is some life force present in them, though you may have to act fast to pull that off. In fact, there's a scene where the Life Mage explains they can save someone who had their head cut off, provided they act quickly enough.

It's an interesting idea, but then how do you explain things like people dying of things like heart disease, stroke, or cancer?

After all if you can literally decapitate grandma, then reattach her head in time for afternoon tea; then how do you attach dramatic tension to things like accidents & diseases, let alone justify people routinely dying by them, in a society presumably motivated to keep them alive lore wise?

However, if someone dies, that's it. They cannot bring them back, except as a skeleton in service to a Death Mage. In fact, my world also has many skeletons that wander around in undeath as they were brought back as one for some reason or another, and have wandered the world in undeath ever since.

Interesting concept, lore wise.

But, are your undead the person reanimated, or simply their body given pseudo life by magical means? Do these undead possess that person's identity, or are there merely lingering traces of their former identity like a residue, or are they entirely new entities inhabiting an old body?

 

[The Stranger]

nteresting concept, from both a lore & mechanical perspective. With some potential moral story impacts based on those decisions as well.

However, I am curious; if there is no returning from death in your world, how do you explain the usual undead suspects ghosts, skeletons, zombies, etcetera?

They don't exist. There are projections created by the brain powered machines\computers that could be described as ghostly, and there are skeletal looking robots made of various metals. The closest thing to zombies would probably be the Reapers, but they're just hosts to a parasitic organism, they're not undead.

 

[XIIIthHarbinger]

@The Stranger

Ah, that makes sense.

So yours' is a more Urban Fantasy/Future Fantasy, rather than the more common Tolkien & D&D style fantasy.

 

[The Stranger]

@XIIIthHarbinger Kinda. It's more steampunk\candlepunk in a dark fantasy setting, with a dash of cyberpunk.

 

[Punamaagi]

My game doesn't have resurrection as such, but in its lore, the souls of the dead end up in the Netherworld (i.e. a limbo of sorts) and linger there for a while before they fade away from existence. It's thus theoretically possible to bring someone back from the dead if
a) their soul is still in the Netherworld
b) their body is intact and hasn't started decomposing (which usually means putting it into stasis)
c) a dimensional portal can be tuned to connect to the Netherworld (portals exist, but next to no one can operate them)
d) someone is able to prevent any other soul from possessing the body when the Netherworld portal is opened (as it allows all souls go through the portal)
The souls of the those who feel like their deaths were unjust tend to linger there longer, and if someone's soul was forcibly torn out of their body before their death, they are the most resilient ones and have most time to spend there - or try to get out. It's very rare that people get "resurrected", however, given the above-mentioned requirements.

...As you can probably guess, though, one of my main characters ends up in Netherworld (after being hit by a cursed arrow that detaches his soul from his body), and the rest of the group rescue him.

More generally speaking, death in my game is permanent, and this shows in how the KO status is called 'unconscious' and no healing spells or skills make any mention of resurrecting people. I prefer games that do it this way rather than cutscene power preventing people from resurrecting important characters. People in the game world tend to believe that even attempting to resurrect the dead is a sacrilege, and no magic is known to have succeeded in it: even if someone had succeeded in bringing someone's body back to life, a body without soul would be more or less just a living doll (for the lack of a better word).

 

[bgillisp]

Simple. Who says they have heart disease, stroke, or cancers? Or maybe some die from it as they have the accident/stroke/heart attack and the life mage is too far away to get to them in time? After all I did say you have to act fast enough. To use the limb cut off example, you have like 30 seconds to save them, or they bled to death and you can't recover from that. So if you lose one too far away from a life mage, or you were working on something alone...

As for disease, many of them block healing spells from working right. So if you have a disease and then an accident occurs, bye bye.

As for undead, same identity. It's even mentioned in one of the endings if you mess up so badly that everyone dies.

 

[LaFlibuste]

Lately I've been thinking of integrating a permadeath mechanic into my game, while the reason for it is partially to increase investment in any given battle, the other reason for it is game world lore.

Lore is relatively easy to come up with. I'm not saying don't do permadeath, but don't do it because of lore. Permadeath is a gameplay element. Do it because it makes sense within your gameplay and will make your game more fun, not because the lore calls for it. Else it will feel artificial, if not detrimental to your game.

A good example of this problem, is how the infamous Aerith death scene at the hands of Sephiroth, runs into a real problem as soon as someone asks "Why didn't they just cast Revive or use a Phoenix Down to save her?"

Others have said so already but anyway: While it is true that some games have carelessly called this state "death", it is not the case with the FF franchise. Not since at least FF4, if memory serves well, anyway. It is called "KO" or some variant of it. The characters are not dead, they are injured and unconscious. I do recognize that spells being called "revive" or "life" is misleading, though, but still.

 

[AsuranFish]

I follow the belief that the state of having 0 HP is simply being knocked out / beaten to the point of being unable to act/respond in battle.

Of course, if everyone in the party is incapacitated, they’ll likely end up being devoured by the monster, or executed by the villain. I imagine some pretty grim things happen behind those Game Over screens.

The topic does have me consider having me distinguish between KO and Death statuses... with KO being somewhat easy to recover from, and Death being something more severe, requiring special items/magic.

I don’t think I’d want to do a perma-Death system in my game, unless the party members were vanilla archetypes that are replaceable somehow.

 

[A-Moonless-Night]

I always just thought of 'death' in battle as being knocked out, rather than actual death. In my game, there are healers that heal wounds and illnesses, and the more advanced the skill of the healer, the better they are at it. I've toyed with the idea of necromancy, but don't think it'll really fit at this point.

In a non-game-related example, I really enjoyed the way death worked in the Old Kingdom Chronicles by Garth Nix. The path from life to death is like a river, and the current grows stronger the closer you get to 'actual' death (therefore, harder to bring a person back the longer they've been dead for, and at a certain point, you just can't).

 

[Olra]

In terms of gameplay "death" I don't have that in my game- I don't like losing characters due to getting unlucky, it's frustrating. So they're just knocked out until a special item or spell is used on them (or you use an inn or something).

In terms of lore-wise, I have always been interested in rebirth, so I use ye olde "recycled spirit" in my fantasies when it's brought up.

 

[Lornsteyn]

I must admit when I was younger there were some games where I thought, why the party not use revive, it would be logical.
But I realized this is one of few things which you dont need to explain, there is no reason to do, its just how it is.
In many games you can explain battle death just as kockout.
Its the same with magic, Its just there, there is no need for a weird explantation. (Unless Its an important aspect for your story)
Most explantations I saw In some games were ridiculous anyway.