Developing for other input devices

[Tsukihime]

When you develop games, it is common to think about mouse and keyboard.


There are scripts that are designed purely for the keyboard, and unless you provide alternatives, your game is effectively limited to people that have keyboards.


Do you take into consideration the possibility that someone might be using a gamepad, or a joystick, or a touch-screen?

 

[Hudell]

Right now I'm ignoring the gamepad on my game, just doing a minimum effort not to break RPG Maker's natural support for it. In the future I want to identify if the player is using one and provide some different options in the game.

 

[EternalShadow]

Touchscreen? No.


A keyboard is all I support at the moment, given all computers have a keyboard. But if RM is able to export to other devices in future, I'll look into other stuff.

 

[Galenmereth]

So far I've designed my games for both standard input controllers and keyboards. I am considering mouse support for The Vendor, which would simultaneously make touchscreen support easier.

 

[_Shadow_]

Touchscreen is far from the standard.

It is what Microsoft thought when released Windows 8 and failed.

If touch screens were standard technology for PCs Windows 8 would just rule the world on release.

Bad timing.

Same goes here.

But a controller, a mouse, a keyboard, a trackball or a touch pad should somehow be concerned as alternatives.

Trackball and touch pad are the same with mouse though.

And contoller is like a keyboard in general.

So a keyboard and mouse scheme could be sufficient, at least for today in my opinion.

 

[Shaz]

I tend to think only of keyboard and mouse - if someone is using a controller that the engine already handles, that's okay.


I really dislike the interface on the few mobile RPG Maker ports I've seen, where they give you the arrow buttons to press to move - it's a TOUCH device - you should be able to TOUCH where you want to move, and move there - not click arrows hiding off to the side of the screen.


I do know my mouse script works on touch screen But if I were developing a game/interface for a mobile device, I would change it around quite a bit too to take advantage of the touch screen.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

I really dislike the interface on the few mobile RPG Maker ports I've seen, where they give you the arrow buttons to press to move - it's a TOUCH device - you should be able to TOUCH where you want to move, and move there - not click arrows hiding off to the side of the screen.

Most RPGs that I've seen on mobile are like that... Makes it really hard on not so large screens.

Anyway, as long as we're only using the default keys available then it also supports controllers. As for mouse, never really thought up of supporting it. 

 

[_Shadow_]

I really dislike the interface on the few mobile RPG Maker ports I've seen, where they give you the arrow buttons to press to move - it's a TOUCH device - you should be able to TOUCH where you want to move, and move there - not click arrows hiding off to the side of the screen.

Maybe these were meant for tablets really. I don't know... that's the bad thing with Android I guess.

In any case I can't agree more with you Shaz.

Keyboard and mouse are more than sufficient I guess.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

Not really, the problem is not really the clutter but the idea that you have an on-screen direction pad instead of being able to just tap where you want to go. It's like they wanted touchscreen but cannot let go of controllers.

 

[_Shadow_]

Not really, the problem is not really the clutter but the idea that you have an on-screen direction pad instead of being able to just tap where you want to go. It's like they wanted touchscreen but cannot let go of controllers.

Well a mouse system can really be emulated in simple things using touch stuff and then you really need two virtual buttons or maybe three?

I mean, this shouldn't be any problem if people would make it right.

didn't know that there was an Android port. For the record, is such a thing legal?

I mean, I really don't know how it even works so...

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

It would be like how most MMOs do things, the buttons on the screen are for like skill shortcuts, hotbars as we call them... But for direction, better just make it work by touching the actual point. 

Yeah, there is a port under official development. Ksjp and Aldorlea Games' Undefeated was I think the first one to be included in the trials.

Once that gets finalized (maybe years more), then we really need to start thinking about supporting touch. Though hopefully, the next maker or maybe an update to Ace will add basic mouse and touch support

 

[Shaz]

Maybe these were meant for tablets really.

No, it's a case of providing something that simulates key presses because the engine is already built around keyboard use, instead of writing something new that takes advantage of the capabilities of the device it's being used on.


It's just a shortcut to avoid the work necessary to do the job properly.

 

[_Shadow_]

No, it's a case of providing something that simulates key presses because the engine is already built around keyboard use, instead of writing something new that takes advantage of the capabilities of the device it's being used on.

It's just a shortcut to avoid the work necessary to do the job properly.

Makes sense.

 

[Galenmereth]

The problem with tapping to move is that on smaller devices (and yes, I still use a "small" device, the 4S) is that depending on how the game works, it can be really imprecise and frustrating. For example, an RPG Maker games' tile size isn't that big on a small screen. My thumbs will misclick a lot. I would actually prefer a dynamic joystic directional input system for my device, where when you put your left/right thumb on the screen, that creates the "origin" point of a joystick, then when you drag in a direction from that, it moves your character in that direction. Then have the rest of the screen be tappable for "ok" actions, and a small button for menus / going back.

This is the problem with touch devices, though; a bazillion different resolutions, screen sizes, and problems to tackle when designing games for them. I'm not even sure I will ever bother releasing for mobile, because the more I look into it, the more I see it will almost be guaranteed to be a financial loss and a huge timesink.

 

[TheoAllen]

For scripters out there, you could take reference from Unity. There's Input Manager where you only need to put "UP" or even "Fire". If "Fire" is pressed, then do something. "Fire" could be anything and it depends on the controller and device. So that's why it could provide a multi-platform compilation.

RGSS3 also has its own Input Manager.

Input.trigger?C) check whether the symbol :C is triggered and :C could be anything.

 

[Galenmereth]

@TheoAllen: Yeah, that's the best way to do it, rather than bind a specific button on a device (say, F1 on a keyboard) is being pressed.

However, when it comes to mouse input, analog input (joysticks on controllers) and touch, it becomes a whole other pile of challenges. Especially touch. Now you have to think about the resolution of your game way more, the size of the screen it is played on (so that a button isn't too small for a thumb on smaller devices), and you can see even veteran studios have trouble finding the sweet spot here.

 

[whitesphere]

My phone (Galaxy 4S) has a touch screen, and I often find myself missing touch sensitive buttons on the GUI because my fingers are too big relative to the screen resolution.

So, to revise RPG Maker to properly support touch screens, the engine would probably need to support the "pinch and drag", effectively smooth resolution resizing on the fly --- since that is the only real way a user press the smaller buttons --- and the entire interface would need to be reworked so it has no dependency on keyboards.

I can imagine the current mobile RPG Maker port is quite difficult, but I really can't imagine how difficult it would be for Enterbrain to rework core aspects of their engine to be both mobile friendly and PC/console friendly.   To say the very least, it would invalidate basically every existing script.  So it would probably be a development effort at LEAST on a par with the mobile port.

I agree with Shaz that, technically, that is the "right" way to do mobile, from the ground up.  But I don't think it's realistic that Enterbrain's few developers will be able to put in that huge amount of effort for the next release.  After all, if we look at the iterations of RPG Maker itself, for the most part, they're incremental improvements and updates, not wholesale changes.

If they did make such a huge effort, how many of us would be willing to pay, say, $200 for an "RPG Maker Pro" which can indeed do multi-platform this way? Would it be enough for them to justify the expense of hiring more developers?

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

I would I think, that's still way cheaper than most commercial engines. XD

 

[_Shadow_]

This will be huge, so I added spoilers.

I would I think, that's still way cheaper than most commercial engines. XD

Spoiler

Errr... no. Unity is for free under conditions that benefit the end user and AGS, RenPy and JMonkey are also free.

But... there is a huge BUT here. RPG Maker VX Ace is still the BEST and EASIEST way to make an RPG game, out of the box. Not the best game ever, but you will be able to do it!

It is not cheap, but it isn't expensive either. Especially giving you the RTP assets with it. Some suck but... read Number2 thing I mention on my reply to whiteshpere's comment.

If they did make such a huge effort, how many of us would be willing to pay, say, $200 for an "RPG Maker Pro" which can indeed do multi-platform this way? Would it be enough for them to justify the expense of hiring more developers?

Spoiler

@Whitesprhere you are right in many parts. Your thoughts are nice.

I am not sure I would give $200 when Unity supports many platforms and gives me the opportunity to pay only if I will first sell a volume of $100.000 and above yearly.

I am talking about new studios here, considering that if you go commercial you are usually new.

Unity idea is great vs their competitors. That is the problem here.

For instance if 9.999 people would buy a $10 game that returns to the developer let's say $8  that would be $99.990 <100.000 so Unity stays free.

$8000 are earnings. Ok?

Now wouldn't the dev buy Unity Pro and some assets using that money he FIRST earned?

Let's say that $2000 were well spent on assets and Unity Pro!

It was like earning $500 for a month, got a great tool and new assets.

Gee!!! What an awesome marketing plan they had there!

Sure it's not $1500 what you propose RPG Maker devs would charge, but $200 paid front will not work very well.

Don't forget, the world is differend than when XP, VX and VX Ace came out.

Today just by learning C# and buying good assets for these $200 you can have an EPIC Enigne doing your job.

So this does not sound appealing either if you are Enterbrain, Degica or a customer.

Meanwhile RPG Maker VX Ace shows its age.

It is old and not so flexible compared to Unity.

There are three things though, that keep VX Ace alive and well!!!

Number 1: It is one of the greatest software you can use to make a game. Easier compared to others. Sure you won't do the best game ever using the event system and the default assets, but YOU CAN MAKE A GAME OUT OF THE BOX EASILY!

Number 2: The community. People making free for all scripts and assets. That's unbeatable. If someone search for how many free assets he/she can gather for VX Ace, then the FULL price on the shop or on Steam would suddenly sound cheapest price ever. If we add the free for non commercial games (hobbyist) then the price is even lower. Do you need any help? There is the same community gathered in this forum. The community is in my opinion 80% of the value of Ace. Take for instance Luna Engine. A new breath of life for VX Ace. Who made Luna? Answer me. Community members that's right! It's the only reason I work with it. I enjoy the challenge playing around with it and be part of this community. 

Number 3: Great Indie developers, especially from the old eras. Laxius, Aveyond, Millenium series developers can blush at this point. These people gave popularity to the software we all love. Not to mention new shiny entries like people behind To the Moon and Skyborn. 

It's not only about what you can do with a tool.

It's also what revolves around it that makes the difference.

After all RPG Maker targets in making old style RPG games mainly.

It's like comparing me RenPy with Unity. Sure Unity is better, but sorry I prefer RenPy to make a visual novel.

If I wanna make a 3D or a 2D with great graphics game, then Unity is the greatest tool ever ok.

But for old school RPGS I will stick with VX Ace.

So @Whitesphere, If they plan to release a new RPG Maker, I believe that they will make something new, priced around 80 Euros, that will be just like Ace without the bad things like low resolution, jitter on some systems, no deltas on animation (delta frame rate to make them smoother as Unity does), side view and front view Battle systems, an Event system with features that we could do only using scripts, script collection implemented, export for multiple platform builds, RTP for every platform... you know... major optimizations but same concept.

That way, they can tell everyone: "Hey you spent 75 Euro on our VX Ace. Guess what! We got our new RPG Maker 10! We ask you again to trust us and give us your money, because it is awesome. If I would see THESE changes I wouldn't give just 80 Euro. I would even give $100!

But not $200.

So back to the point:

"Do you take into consideration the possibility that someone might be using a gamepad, or a joystick, or a touch-screen? "

In general yes. You must optimize the experience for multi devices in my opinion, if you can, so the devices can optimize the gaming experience.

As long as I use VX Ace, if someone uses an interface to play a game I made, on his/her phone or tablet, I really don't care. It's his/her problem and the guy's who made that interface. If it was me who made that interface, then yes, I might consider optimizing it. I don't know.... I am not sure if it is even legal to make such a thing.

Anyway.

I am thinking of best controls on solo keyboard, best controls on keyboard and mouse scenario, also mouse solo if possible and finally something very little of people might think of.

I would support a controller especially if my game was based on an Acrion Battle System, or if it was showing button sequences on screen to be pressed....

If the game demands fast and much input, then ergonomic design is essential.

GAME INTERFACE is part of the gameplay experience. Optimizing it might make a game shine, while making a game full of sub menus, might make a user angry.

It's not about controls really, in my opinion. 

It's all about fun. Hurting yourself, like your wrists or something is never fun.