Diagonal tiles make a world of difference, Enterbrain.

[Tsukihime]

This .gif does a decent job of showing the difference between blocks and no blocks.

Definitely a big difference, however just because a tile is a square doesn't mean the contents of the tile needs to be square.

Would take a lot of effort to get those using auto-tiles though, since you'd have to first understand how autotiles work in order to figure out how to actually make it tile that way automatically.

 

[Felix Trapper]

Definitely a big difference, however just because a tile is a square doesn't mean the contents of the tile needs to be square.

Would take a lot of effort to get those using auto-tiles though, since you'd have to first understand how autotiles work in order to figure out how to actually make it tile that way automatically.

Well, the real problem with Ace's autotiles is that Enterbrain decided to lazify them. Instead of having a 3x3 tile, we got 2x2. If you do the math, they took out more than HALF the tiles that an autotile used to have in the previous makers. So, as a consequence, the "corner" tiles got truncated and are now only represented by a quarter-tile, instead of a full tile. So, despite our best efforts, it's near impossible to make it look round using the autotile feature.

Notice how the VX "corner" tiles are 1/4 as large as previous iterations.

In this day and age, I can't help but wonder why that choice was made. The extra storage space is negligible, and the amount of work needed by the pixel artist would be minimal~however, the effect would be large.

 

[BigEd781]

Looks fine to me.

Spoiler

I disagree. Here's a map that I made years ago with more natural tiles (I had some much nicer screenshots that I posted long ago, but couldn't find them. This will do).

--

I prefer that look. So yes, someone with a good eye can make blocky tiles look good... but there is a limit as to how much you can do with them. If you're going for a blocky/retro style then of course there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but I think most people prefer the RTP that came with XP over what we have been given in the last two installments.

 

[MyLordRobinson]

The limitation is not the tool, but the artist.

I am very stupid. Please delete this post.

 

[Victor Sant]

The fact is how th autotiles are handled on VX and Ace. Even using XP autotiles can't solve that, because the blockness come from how the maker handles autotiles.

The limitation is not the tool, but the artist.

No matter how good your autotiles are, you will be never able to do something like this with them:

So you're wrong in saying that it's only the artist fault. The autotile from VX and Ace are very limiting.

 

[BigEd781]

The limitation is not the tool, but the artist.

Yeah, that's easy to say, but if I give you a piece of charcoal and a slab of stone you may have a hard time competing with someone who, say, has a copy of Photoshop handy. Also, this is a hobbyist engine. It is unrealistic to expect the majority of its users to have even a moderate level of artistic ability. Better to give them something that makes the task easier.

 

[Felix Trapper]

The limitation is not the tool, but the artist.

*yawn*

as demonstrated in that gif, I can make rounded cliffs and diagonal tiles. The tool that is autotiles limits that profoundly. Just because there exist workarounds does not mean there isn't a problem.

 

[MagicMagor]

I don't remember how big tilesets can be in ACE, but if the autotiles make it difficult to make nice maps there is a simple solution - don't use the autotiles.

Autotiles make the mapping easier and the change from XP to VX/ACE is probably done to make it easier for the spriter to make these autotiles. Of course the exchange for this is, that the maps looks more blocky.

But the rpgmaker has a ton of limitations. The software is meant to be (very) easy to use as long as you are using it inside its limitations. Everything outside these limitations means a lot more work. This has always been the case for scripting/technical stuff, so now it also applies to mapping.

Net result of my post?

The maker will always have a ton of limitations, pleasing everybody is impossible. But there will always be workarounds so nothing is really "impossible". Besides on a personal note i like the "blocky" look of VX and ACE-maps. Gives it a somewhat retro feel to it.

 

[Victor Sant]

I don't remember how big tilesets can be in ACE, but if the autotiles make it difficult to make nice maps there is a simple solution - don't use the autotiles.

While this a solution, this in the end limits the user, since he can't make 3 layered floors (floor + grass + object). Neither animated water.In the end the only good solution is parallax mapping (And i just noticed that my fog and overlay script allows to place a overlay above the auto tiles but bellow the player so it can be used as a floor above the animated autotiles *-*).

But the rpgmaker has a ton of limitations. The software is meant to be (very) easy to use as long as you are using it inside its limitations. Everything outside these limitations means a lot more work.

Sad but true. And some of the limitations aren't even justified, they could have both the "easy" and "hard" way avaiable in a lot of them.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Autotile format is the one thing where I will say I think Ace is a bit lacking.

Do I think its impossible to make good maps with the current autotile format? No, I don't.

Do I think that better maps could be made by an equally practiced mapper with better autotiles? Yes, absolutely.

 

[Holder]

What I've started to do is not use A2/3 for floor/ground/cliff tiles, why would you use those if they don't give the results you want. Even in the RTP there's cliff tiles within the A5 set. Create the angled tiles in there.

Yeah I don't like the way it's been altered -since XP- and I've had a horrible time trying to find things to do with those, but if you don't like it then there's always an alternative without changing the entire way you do something (ie doing the parallax background thing).

 

[Fomar0153]

I agree don't diagonal tiles look good?

Spoiler

The path is an auto tile but the cliffs are in B-E.

I do admit that to get the less blocky look parallaxing might one of the easier ways.

 

[Mouser]

For all of you who got the new High Fantasy Resource Pack email:

Tell me the blocky coastline doesn't take away from the beautiful sprites and scenery...

edit: Heres the linky: http://resources.rpgmakerweb.com/high-fantasy-resource-pack/

third screenshot down.

 

[RavenTDA]

Well while it's not exactly the same thing you can still use tiles like that just don't put them in auto-tile format. You'd just have to do it manually, but you can still get the same results.

 

[Avadan]

Actually diagonal and rounded autotiles are really easy to do... and I'm sure most graphic resource staff members on the site have a few sets made out there, so finding them isn't the issue.

The thing is, vx went with the retro 8 bit squarness, they shoud have gone with the later years of the 16 bit era : /

Back in the day before bulletxt "Swap Tileset" script or "Ace", fitting every rounded/diagonal resource in the limited tileset was the challenge x D

 

[Felix Trapper]

I've looked around and found some 'rounded tiles' for VX, but none work quite the way I want them to or appear, well, too 'round'. I like a more diagonal look as seen in the 2000 RTP.

I'm starting work on my own custom set, here's an (unfinished, unpolished) example:

I plan on doing the same for the default RTP, and I can share those with anyone that wants them. I think it makes the world look so much better!

I should note, the above picture uses no parallaxing whatsoever, just tiles. The light effect is the only picture.

 

[tpasmall]

After you posted this topic I was thinking of giving it a try too, I know grafikal had made some rounded tiles but I never tried them out. This looks great though.

 

[Mouser]

Yeah, great job Felix

Ultimately, I think that's what I'll have to do. Spend a few (or more) days of my life with the graphics editor making diagonal and rounded tiles, then creating special tilesets from them for every map (or at least every similar map). You generally don't use all the cliffs available in a scene, so there's room for cutting and pasting what you need there.

At least the autotiles make it easy to throw down a map quickly so you can set up the events, quests, dialog, and things like that. Then go back and tweak the looks later.

 

[Tsukihime]

I plan on doing the same for the default RTP, and I can share those with anyone that wants them. I think it makes the world look so much better!

Think you'll write up some tutorials for creating such tiles?

I was reading the auto-tile tutorial for...something (VX?) but it didn't make it any clearer to me how you would combine the tiles such that you can use the auto-tiles properly.

 

[Des]

Think you'll write up some tutorials for creating such tiles?

I was reading the auto-tile tutorial for...something (VX?) but it didn't make it any clearer to me how you would combine the tiles such that you can use the auto-tiles properly.

those aren't autotiles. they're just regular cliff tiles like in 2K/3 and XP.