differences between magic and physical attacks

[Oddball]

Ok, so before I start. Most skills besides Attack and Guard in my game gain TP. Characters lose 2 TP per turn. If TP gets above 40, the character can't move until it's below 40. If TP is managed effectively, it can stay relativly low

Anyway. Physical attacks gain the most TP. Also, there damage is reduced the higher TP is, but don't have any other restrictions

Most Magic attacks gain less TP, the majority being at 2. However, Magic attacks also cost MP and have cooldowns before they can be used again. Also, there damage is not affected by TP

I plan on making more differences, but wanted to know what people thought before i added more

 

[Kes]

Can I just check that I have understood something.

If TP hits 40, then the character cannot move.

If the character cannot move they cannot use a skill which costs TP and which would bring it down below 40

they are standing there doing no damage, so the enemy can keep on hitting them.

Every time they are hit TP is gained.

TP never falls below 40 so the character remains effectively paralyzed.

That happens to a couple of characters.

Game over.

 

[Wavelength]

It sounds fine.  Note that it's functionally pretty similar to gaining TP each turn, and paying for physical skills (and to a lesser extent magic) using TP.

Edit: I didn't think about the fact that by default every battler gains TP when hit.  Well, that's very easy to turn off (give every battler a TCR * 0% feature or just disable the call to the Charge TP By Damage method in the Script Editor), but if you implement this rule for both actors and enemies (yes, enemies do have their TP tracked by Ace, you just don't see it), and change the amount that battlers naturally "recover" per turn to a larger number like -5, and make it even larger for boss enemies, you might have a very interesting battle mechanic in play where you can target and disable foes for a short time using regular attacks rather than problematic "status effect" skills.

 

[Oddball]

TP never falls below 40 so the character remains effectively paralyzed.

Characters lose 2 TP per turn

Also, skills don't cost TP they INCREASE TP, and being hit gains no TP. Also, do you think the players need a way to dump TP, or is attack good enough. Because this system is supposed to reward proper managing of TP, but I think it punishes improper handling of it too hard

 

It sounds fine.  Note that it's functionally pretty similar to gaining TP each turn, and paying for physical skills (and to a lesser extent magic) using TP.

Edit: I didn't think about the fact that by default every battler gains TP when hit.  Well, that's very easy to turn off (give every battler a TCR * 0% feature or just disable the call to the Charge TP By Damage method in the Script Editor), but if you implement this rule for both actors and enemies (yes, enemies do have their TP tracked by Ace, you just don't see it), and change the amount that battlers naturally "recover" per turn to a larger number like -5, and make it even larger for boss enemies, you might have a very interesting battle mechanic in play where you can target and disable foes for a short time using regular attacks rather than problematic "status effect" skills.

 

That is an interesting mechanic. Although it kind of blows out the flavor behind what i envisioned for this particular TP mechanic, which is the actors getting too tired to move. 

 

[Andar]

So basically you're using TP as a scale to limit the number of actions an actor has.


There is one problem however:

Characters lose 2 TP per turn.


Physical attacks gain the most TP.


Most Magic attacks gain less TP, the majority being at 2.

If magic skills gain 2 TP, physcal skills gain more than that, and the TP is only reduced by 2 TP per turn, then the players will have less than one attack per turn after the limit is hit.


And you can't prevent reaching that level if most skills add more TP than the number reduced per turn.


So all you get is a time limit on how long the player has to effectively defeat an enemy.


That can be an interesting twist on battles, but it will require a lot of careful balancing, and it will drive some players away from your game even if done correctly.

 

[Oddball]

Most skills besides Attack and Guard in my game gain TP

I figured this would be enough. Attack and Guard under this system become pacing mechanics. So the player can use these to keep TP low, or so was the intention

Also, in this system, using a weaker skill over a stronger skill can be a strategy. Although I haven't tested this with later game skills yet

 

[captainproton]

Interesting, but I would find it too frustrating and would soon quit. It also just encourages spamming attack over and over just to get the fight over with. When you're penalized for using powerful or interesting skills, what's the point?

I say boo.

 

[Oddball]

@captian proton: I'm balancing the enemies so that spamming attack would prove fatal. Though, new players might not see that, and would think the game was too hard or something

I think proper balancing of the pace of battles might be a way to make this work. Also, as wavelength pointed out

It sounds fine. Note that it's functionally pretty similar to gaining TP each turn, and paying for physical skills (and to a lesser extent magic) using TP.

Only in this system, you can use the powerful/interesting skills right away instead of having to wait to gain enough TPEdit: well with this system a skill that raises 8 tp after 5 turns gives you 30 tp, so i think im going to up the threshold a bit. Either that or make that the most powerful attack

 

[TheHonorableRyu]

Sounds interesting!

 

What's TP going to be called in your game? Is there a particular storyline reason why you decided that gaining TP and going over a certain number would paralyze the characters, as opposed to losing TP and falling below a certain number?

 

There's nothing inherently wrong mechanics-wise with that decision, but without an explanation of what TP or the TP gauge are supposed to represent in your game it could be counter-intuitive or confusing for some players. "Gaining" something tends to sound more positive, and "losing" something tends to sound more negative, but in your game it's reversed. If your TP meter were called a "Fatigue" or "Overload" gauge or something such that could help. 

 

There are some similarities to what I'm doing with TP in my project: Most classes start with 100 TP (called Stamina Points or SP), and most actions (including normal attacks with equipped weapons) cost TP. If a unit's TP reaches 20 or below it enters a Fatigue state in which all their stats are halved, until they go over 20 TP again (they can still act but are terribly weak offensively and defensively). Different classes automatically recover TP per turn at different rates, such that different actions for each actions will result in a net decrease, increase or even break in TP for that turn. For example, a Human class unit may lose some TP each turn it performs a regular attacks with an equipped Ax, but a Zombie class unit using the same Ax normal attack may break even. The same rules apply to enemy troops. Skills that cost MP typically cost less TP, as well. 

 

 

So with my TP system I've had to think through some issues common your TP system, and here's couple things to consider with yours:

 

1) Is losing 2 TP per turn (each time you attack or guard) the only way units can reduce the TP gauge?

 

In my project I tried to give different classes different ways in which they spend and regain TP, to effectively give them different "tempos" or play-styles. For example, Flying classes units are glass cannons that can take two actions per turn and doing two front-row attacks will have a high TP cost, but they also have a skill called Roost which recovers TP, the more the TP lost the higher the regain (but the skill costs their entire turn and reduces their Evasion to zero for that turn, making them rather vulnerable since their other defensive stats are low). So a Flying unit can be played in cycles of high burst damage followed by retreating/recovering TP. On the other hand, sturdy Insect class units have movesets that allow them to gradually buff their stats and the amount of TP they regain over time, such that they can use their more powerful skills more efficiently and freely as the battle progresses. 

 

Some classes can recover TP by last-hitting enemy units, some by sacrificing their MP, some at the cost of temporarily debuffing some of their own stats, some support units can transfer their own TP to ally units, etc.

 

So in your project would there be any other options to reduce TP other than to attack or guard (or use low TP-gain magic)? Is there any way to reduce more than 2 TP at a time?

 

 

2) Is paralysis the best penalty for going over 40 TP?

 

How much do skills cost in your game? If they raise the TP bar by like 3-5 TP on average, then that's a lot of actions/turns before a character can reach 40 TP. But if skills cost like 6 to 10 TP on average, that means an action could paralyze a player for like 3-5 turns. Not very fun, and especially frustrating on a misclick. 

 

In my particular project I briefly thought of paralysis being the penalty for hitting 20 TP or below, but went I with stats being halved for a variety of reasons.  Paralysis is unfun and would probably make worse the biggest risk of my TP system--the player getting "stuck" in a situation where they'll always have low TP unless the battle drags on and on. That's a real drag and invites the player resetting the game in frustration. To avoid this, since different units have actions that can recover TP, I wanted to at least give those units the chance to use them to get out of their situation, rather than make the whole system only a matter of prevention. The stat halving also makes it so that if a player just unwisely spends all their TP on all their characters at the same time, the enemy troop would likely just wipe out the party and end the battle. The player would be back playing again in a jiffy, ready to try a different strategy with their full options available to them. 

 

I'm not saying that you should do what I did in my case, since we do have some notably different rules, but I do think it's good to consider what will happen when TP get too high and what the player's experience will be like. Some players may spend a lot of TP because it seemed like it would be enough to end the battle, but if it turns out to not be a case through no fault of their own they could be in for a drag. Misclicks do happen, and paralysis for several turns, followed by no skills for several more turns, could be a real pain.

 

 

One simple thing that I think could help your current system a lot without changing too much is if one character is currently paralyzed due to going over 40 TP, other characters could sacrifice their turn (and gain 2 TP) to reduce the paralyzed character's TP gauge. This could help the going over 40 TP rule still feel like a penalty (other characters have to sacrifice their turns) without it being as much of a dead end or black hole. 

 

You could maybe also play around with having characters being able to do this at any time (not just when the target character is paralyzed due to going over 40 TP). For example, perhaps one character has a skill that halves magic damage for the entire party and you're up against a boss that uses a devastating magic attack after a one turn warm-up, but if the character used the anti-magic shield every time it's useful they would gain TP too quickly. So the player could pull off a neat strategy by having several characters sacrifice their turns to fund the use of the anti-magic shield as much as needed.

 

 

[Oddball]

@TheHonrableRyu: the weakest physical skills gain about 2 to 3 TP, and the strongest skills cost 8 (which puts TP above the tired threshold in 7 turns)

I was actually considering using offensive stat drops as well as 20% loss of accuracy so players could still guard and use items. But i might use what you suggested as well

I'm considering different options for reducing TP. One of them having a TP drop with recovery items, although if this was the only option, player may just burn through there recovery items and be screwed when they really need them

Aslo, Fatigue is pretty close to the flavor i wanted to emulate with this mechanic. Only i was calling them "tired points"

 

[Wavelength]

One other possible solution: you could have a "Rest" command (alongside attack, guard, skills, etc.) that reduces the character's TP by an amount (maybe a fixed amount like 8, or a percentage of the character's current TP).  Don't "paralyze" characters that find themselves over 40TP, but rather "exhaust" them: give them a severe penalty to their ATK and MAG (figure out the right numbers so that they're dealing about a quarter of the damage that they normally do), and a small penalty to DEF and MDF (so that they're taking maybe 125% of the normal damage); if you have a lot of skills/magic in your game that don't factor in ATK/MAG, such as a spell that simply Poisons or Slows an enemy, then you should also increase a battler's MP Cost Rate (to 200% or so) when they're Exhausted.  These penalties will allow the player to keep making interesting decisions for the character instead of watching idly as they lose turn after turn, but they will also be severe enough to make the player prioritize lowering a character's TP once they hit the 40 threshold or even get close to it.

 

[Oddball]

@wavelength. I was considering sealing skill types as well

I like the rest idea. Although I was also trying to be creative with it. Like when characters that can equip a large shield use guard, after taking damage they counter attack. (not sure if that's too overpowered or not) Inspired by viking combat tactics 

Or interweaving TP drop into recovery items, or several others

I probably am going to use something similar to wavelengths idea, although i don't want to be a copy cat, so it will definitely be something different

Edit: Thanks for the input everyone. I think now i can make this into a mechanic that forces the player to strategize (which is what i envisioned in the first place) but make it much more so now, because it frees up more options

Now, back to the original question. What do you guys think about the differences so far? I know i'd like to add more differences between physical and magic attacks

All physical attacks use luk in both to augment the attackers attack and the defenders defense. only i renamed it Skill or SKL

 

[Wavelength]

Now, back to the original question. What do you guys think about the differences so far? I know i'd like to add more differences between physical and magic attacks

Assuming your combat uses the basic RPG battle system (turn-taking, location doesn't matter), there aren't too many "tactile" elements (dealing with the feel and control of play) that you can use to differentiate physical skills and magic, since you're simply choosing a skill from the menu and then watching it play out without active counterplay from an opponent.  (A game like the Tales series, on the other hand, has a very different feel and playstyle for swordsmen versus archers versus mages.)

So what you will need to do, if you want to differentiate physical versus magical skills beyond the resources that you need to use them, is to do something like arbitrarily introduce different rules into your entire combat system and then balance around those (for example, all characters start the battle with a shield against magical attacks but physical attacks can break this shield and then magic can hit hard... or physical skills are more powerful normally, but magical attacks have greatly increased effects against Exhausted enemies), or carefully classify the different effects into the different types of skills (for example, all disabling status effects come from physical skills, versus all stat-lowering ailments come from magical skills).  Like Ryu has said in a couple of different places, the trap you need to be careful about not falling into is to make it so that physical-skill users and magic users can do pretty much the exact same things, except they're called different names.

 

[Oddball]

Thanks. Im also thinking about making magic skjlls cost between 20 and 100 mp with 100 being the default max mp and have the battlers regenerate around 25% mp each turn so that the resources behave differently.

I was also sort of making the physical skills more powerful normaly

 

[Oddball]

What if you could add effects to magic attacks but didnt regenrate as much mp that turn?

Sorry for the double post. My phone is messing up