Frostorm

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For those of you that have level-ups in your game (which I assume most projects have), what is the level cap you decided to go with? Also, how significant is each level-up in your game? What do characters gain when they do? Stats? Skills? Points to spend? Etc...
 

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I think in order to have a good balance ..
(no OP, no grinding availleble)
.. its better to use low exp numbers, and not much levels..
(max lv 20 or 30 for example )
..make the exp and levels worthy by making class changes or skills only availleble with high enough level..
(with max level 20 or 30, class changes every 5 or 10 levels... and different new skills for each level and class)
Also in this example i would limit the enemys that give exp to make grinding impossible and to force the player to calculate what actors gets which kill
(only kills should give exp to make grinding impossible)

i played a lot of tbs.. the best balanced ones without grinding availleble where the oldest games, and the most interessing..
( having OP actors can make a game very boring => send one Hulk vs all enemys and wait till its over ..)

edit
if games allow and need grinding.. than not enough grinding makes the game not win-able.. and to much grinding makes them boring..
In oder to keep a good gameflow i preffer games without grinding and limited exp output that fits to Unlock everything.. (but only if the kills were well calculated..)
Make sure that 1 op char and 3 to weak chars, are less usefull than 4 balanced chars..
( by having different classes and skills that are needed in the game to kill different enemys.. so even an OP char cant win if the other chars are to low and dont have the skills that are needed to kill special enemys )
=> also Healers can have a similar effect, a healer can be weak but its speels can be important in later game chapters..
(like a Map with undead that need holy spells on the other actors&their_weapons)
 
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Milennin

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In RTP, there's only a fixed number of encounters, and every encounter grants 1 level-up. I believe the maximum is level 20? I honestly forgot, because I never fight everything in one playthrough, nor do I expect any player to do so. The minimum is 7, since there's only 6 mandatory battles (including the final boss), but you can clear the game doing just those. Clearing any on top of those will just make it easier, if players find themselves having trouble beating the later encounters.

For other projects, I never changed the default level cap, because I don't really care about players over-levelling. Character progress (such as in equipment or abilities) is made by progressing in the story and exploring, gaining levels is more like a way to set your own difficulty. Players who want a better challenge only require to fight a small number of enemies in each area, while players who want easier bosses will have to battle more regular encounters. I do balance my game in a way you can clear everything at a low level from skipping most of the encounters in an area, it'll just be a lot more difficult. This is why I spend a lot of time on my battle system, so players can compensate for having lower numbers by playing well and choosing Skills wisely.
 

Sparky89

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For those of you that have level-ups in your game (which I assume most projects have), what is the level cap you decided to go with? Also, how significant is each level-up in your game? What do characters gain when they do? Stats? Skills? Points to spend? Etc...
Hi Frostorm,

In my game, the cap level is 30 and I'm using low numbers, for a few reasons. It is easier to work with, for example a Actor has 50 or 100 HP..

When they gain levels I try and give them new tech skill and magic spells to learn, so they are rewarded..

this also helps with balance as my game is 90% controlled, and 10% player variance or something around those lines.

I don't have grinding, I think for most people it's a turn off.

My cap level is low, However this is also due to the fact of how my game will play out.. I'm using dungeon floor's like worlds - 4 or 5 each one I expect the player to raise their level by 5 or 10 by the end of each dungeon floor.

Having say 60 for the smaller scope of my game is not realistic. So to summarise smaller numbers are easier to work with, and abilities is what my players get when they level up.
 

TheoAllen

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what is the level cap you decided to go with?
Level 25

Also, how significant is each level-up in your game? What do characters gain when they do? Stats? Skills? Points to spend? Etc...
You gain a perk slot. No stat up, just perk slot.
The effectiveness of the slot depends on how you use it.
And level cap 25 means you get all the available perk.
 

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I don't cap levels; I think it's a lot of fun to see how high you can bring your characters' levels in the postgame when there's not much else to do, and feel like you're being rewarded with a bit of extra power as you do so.

It's different for game to game, but generally what I do is award stats, sometimes additional stats in the form of a choice of boosts or passives, and the ability to purchase or choose new skills. Having a new tool to work with makes the level-up feel that much more awesome.
 

Frostorm

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In regards to over-leveling, I can think of 2 possible solutions off the top of my head:
  1. Limit the number of enemies/encounters available.
    • This means no grinding, which is either a pro or a con depending on the audience.
  2. Apply diminishing returns to the amount of XP awarded.
    • I prefer this method more, though I'll have to look into how to actually implement this.
Which solution sounds better? Or should grinding be allowed? I know it's pretty divisive... my writer, for example, is adamant about having infinite grinding be a thing (i.e. Disgaea). I think that's going overboard though, cuz in Disgaea you can reach lv999 and max out stats to like 9999 or something ridiculous lol. On the other hand, I'm guessing for each player that loves grinding, there are probably several that don't...

I do like to reward players for the effort they put into "training" though, so I am kinda on the fence.

Edit: I was wrong...the cap in Disgaea 6 is lv 99,999,999!:kaoswt:
1609974913940.png
 

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Apply diminishing returns to the amount of XP awarded.
What is the difference with exp scaling? I mean, the more you level up, the more required exp to the next level. You don't need to diminish the reward.

I generally hate hard cap (which is ironic, because I do it in my game for reasons). As in, you can not level up more than this level. I appreciate a soft cap. And by a soft cap, I mean, either the exp requirement is too high and it isn't worth your time to grind over, or the reward of leveling up does not have much effect.

The reason why I hate hard cap is I feel like I don't feel rewarded for killing an enemy. After all the battle that rewards me for something. It doesn't do it anymore. It is different if the game is already level-less in the first place like arcade/shooter/fps. In soft cap, I know I will still accumulate something.

An example of a hard cap (that I hate) is
- Fallout 3
- Kingdom of Amalur
I reached the level cap in both games and I was like skipping all encounters and go straight to the final stage. I skipped a lot of uncompleted quests/tasks because I know I won't get anything worth it.

Fallout 4, on the other hand, has a soft cap around the level 70 ~ 80. Technically, you can level up forever until 250 and up, but level up by one needs a lot of exp and probably not worth your time. It is still possible though.
 

Frostorm

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Yea, I don't like Hard-Cap either, Soft-Cap is definitely the way to go, but it's not really a huge deal to me either way though. I guess EXP Scaling and Diminishing Returns basically do the same thing, they just adjust 2 different ends of the spectrum. I've seen both methods implemented well, or even both at the same time (unnecessarily imo).

Some games also reward EXP per action instead of on kills only. Not sure how I feel about that mechanic, because healers and support usually get the short end of the stick in such a system. But I guess everything has a workaround if you put in enough effort lol.

I don't cap levels; I think it's a lot of fun to see how high you can bring your characters' levels in the postgame when there's not much else to do, and feel like you're being rewarded with a bit of extra power as you do so.
This gave me an idea just now! What if you have a standard level cap throughout the game, let's say 50 or 25 or w/e you want. Then after you beat the final boss of the main storyline, it triggers the game to unlock the level cap. So for post-game, you can grind as much as you want and optimize your builds/characters even further. Never seen any game do this, but also not sure if this is even a good idea lol.
 
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kiyasu

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My game is going up to Level 999, but you beat the game around the "usual" RPG range. You get to play as characters at like maybe Level 500 without any form of New Game+, but I'm not sure about spoiling the ideas and reasons behind this. Initially I thought to limit it at Level 200 (like Tales of Destiny: Director's Cut) or Level 250 and I remember I was disappointed in Tales of Rebirth seeing that the maximum level is 100. So I wanted to do something different from the too-common Level 100.

I might be spoiling some "plot" if I tell you why or how I am going to do the levels thing though. That's why I'm not sure whether I "can" tell you more about what I want to do here. Also, by "usual" RPG range, I mean something like Lv. 80 ~ Lv. 150. Tales of Destiny: Director's Cut reaches Level 200 as its maximum and I was kind of a bit "aww man" that it couldn't go higher, especially for this difficult battle coliseum round. So I thought to use my disappointment, and in my own game, "fix" the disappointment issues I have with all the RPGs I played. So, my game starts at the usual Lv. 1 for the main characters, but there's a way that you also play as characters who are Lv. 500+ in the same world without any form of New Game+... the Lv. 500+ thing is part of the main story plot, in some sense.
 

Frostorm

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@kiyasu So what do players get when they level up in your game? I'm guessing stats most likely... since, with that many levels, it would be a hassle to gain new skills at every level right? Or maybe they learn new stuff every couple of levels? Curious to hear more about your game. :p

Edit: I also wanted to ask everyone...how do you guys reconcile players that like grinding w/ players that don't like grinding? Is it basically one of those "you can't please everyone" situations? Or is there an option #3 I'm not aware of?

Also in this example i would limit the enemys that give exp to make grinding impossible and to force the player to calculate what actors gets which kill
(only kills should give exp to make grinding impossible)
So in your game, only the killing blow grants EXP? And the EXP only goes to a single actor right? I'm curious how support characters (if you have them in your game) level up this way. I was considering a similar system but was unsure due to the issue I just mentioned.
 
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Dopan

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So in your game, only the killing blow grants EXP? And the EXP only goes to a single actor right? I'm curious how support characters (if you have them in your game) level up this way. I was considering a similar system but was unsure due to the issue I just mentioned.

that works by letting enemys that are nearly dead (very low hp) get killed from the "weaker actors".. there for every actor will have attack skills, even a healer will have atleast 1 magic skill that can be used to take down the last few exp..

That way every Lv up and kill that weak actors get were more challenging than usual kills from stronger actors..
..that gives more "success experiences" for the player, when "weak actors" lv up or kill enemys


Or you could make every actor able to recruit mercenarys
, depending on what actor and what class the actor is..
Those mercenarys stay only for 1 battle, they dont lv up and their exp goes to their commanding actor..
..that was how it worked in "death or glory"
(old tbs game in germany which was a clone of langrisser somehow.. but with better gameplay^^)
=> that last solution would be a bit harder to build into a project i guess
 

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Edit: I also wanted to ask everyone...how do you guys reconcile players that like grinding w/ players that don't like grinding? Is it basically one of those "you can't please everyone" situations? Or is there an option #3 I'm not aware of?
I'm currently experimenting the option 3, I might tell you the result later. I can not talk about it as I don't have a data to back me up, just a theory, and I don't want to spoil the theory just yet :p
 

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I especially hate level cap, i tend to lose interest when playing Rpg game and my character reached max level. In my game i have max level at 300, though it only give more stats each level up
 

kiyasu

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@kiyasu So what do players get when they level up in your game? I'm guessing stats most likely... since, with that many levels, it would be a hassle to gain new skills at every level right? Or maybe they learn new stuff every couple of levels? Curious to hear more about your game. :p

My project is a linear motion battle system role-playing game (LMBS-RPG). It is using its own LMBS script written from scratch just for my game(s). As you might can imagine, in my situation, a lot of things can be considered completely differently from how it is discussed in this Game Mechanics Design forum, including MP Healing versus Consumables. For your questions here, I currently have it that the characters gain stats every new level and new skills every once in a while. For the latter, it might be that for certain characters they stop learning new skills after reaching a certain level, but I also want to factor in side quests and other events affecting this.
 

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Some games also reward EXP per action instead of on kills only. Not sure how I feel about that mechanic, because healers and support usually get the short end of the stick in such a system. But I guess everything has a workaround if you put in enough effort lol.
Often Healers get EXP for using healing spells in games like that. But I'm not a fan of EXP per action at all - it universally rewards stalling out battles you've already won in, not to mention using skills that don't play into your strategy to actually win a battle (which makes it just not an interesting "game" dynamic).

EXP (or Stats) per action has certain advantages, but I think all of them can be better achieved with different mechanics.

This gave me an idea just now! What if you have a standard level cap throughout the game, let's say 50 or 25 or w/e you want. Then after you beat the final boss of the main storyline, it triggers the game to unlock the level cap. So for post-game, you can grind as much as you want and optimize your builds/characters even further. Never seen any game do this, but also not sure if this is even a good idea lol.
I think it sounds genuinely fine, but let me offer a counterargument - the main benefit this provides is that you control the team's Level for the final segment of the game. It won't control the team's level for most of the game, if players want to grind above it... and then all of a sudden they run into a cap. Then that cap is removed; it kind of sends a mixed message for only a small balance improvement.

I guess I've never really seen a JRPG (or any linear / semi-linear adventure) where a level cap was beneficial to gameplay. It makes a lot more sense in something like an MMORPG or WRPG, where you want the player to be able to go almost anywhere in the world at a given time after their first 50-100 hours in the game, and have both a fair chance to survive and a stiff challenge on their hands.

Edit: I also wanted to ask everyone...how do you guys reconcile players that like grinding w/ players that don't like grinding? Is it basically one of those "you can't please everyone" situations? Or is there an option #3 I'm not aware of?
There are lots of ways to make the game accommodate both. One of my favorite ways is to have steep EXP curves with steep acceleration in EXP gains from monsters across the game (so that even a lot of grinding will only put you a few levels ahead of par for one or two dungeons) - supplemented by some kind of customization system that provides a lot of flexibility but only minor amounts of raw power, which is fueled by points earned from grinding in some way.

Another interesting way to handle this is to grant rewards for combat, but also make it "costly" in some way - design to require the use of consumables, have equipment slowly degrade over the course of a lot of battles, etc.

An easier way to design for both grinders and non-grinders is to have difficult challenges throughout the game while ensuring that if the player can't beat them, it doesn't obstacle their ability to move on. The challenge might come in the form of optional bosses in each dungeon that are far more powerful than the story boss in that dungeon. (Maybe by defeating them, you unlock extra cutscenes and content that explore character backstories, and if you defeat them all, you can change the ending or access a bonus dungeon.) Or it might come in the form of special challenges in the game's normal battles, such as "Defeat the Boss in 10 turns" or "Win the battle without any Actors being KO'ed". These are especially popular in games where it's possible (and even commonplace) to go back to old bosses you've already beaten to grind for materials or EXP - these extra objectives give you extra things to shoot for even after simply winning the battle becomes trivial.

If you feel the need to choose between one or the other (grinders vs. non-grinders), look at how fun the combat is in your game compared to the rest of the game experience. The more favorably combat compares to the rest of the game, the more it's a good idea to lean into grinding.

So in your game, only the killing blow grants EXP? And the EXP only goes to a single actor right? I'm curious how support characters (if you have them in your game) level up this way. I was considering a similar system but was unsure due to the issue I just mentioned.
I know this wasn't directed to me, but just want to mention something I do in this vein: in one game I'm working on, all participants earn EXP but the character who lands the finishing blow on an enemy earns double the amount of EXP for that enemy. The EXP curve means that no actor ever gets too far ahead of everyone else (2x EXP doesn't mean 2x the level), but allows a player to favor a certain character somewhat if he wants to. It's also a game where you can customize any character enough to make them into a primary attacker, a support, or a hybrid.
 

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I love all the ideas and discussion in this post! I wanted to bring up a game called Fell Seal. There is a level cap of 100 in the game. You have the option to reset your character's levels back to 1 because depending on classes chosen, you can't get max stats in certain attributes and such. I personally don't like the idea, I like to grind and play the battles in tactical rpgs, it's more about the battles and improving my characters than the story most times. In Fell Seal, you can change the difficulty in so many ways and between battles, like adding enemies, scaling their levels, and giving them more items, that each battle changes enough that grinding isn't about the grind, it's a fun experience.

So now to my point, why do we feel the need to force the player to enjoy our game in a certain way. If a person wants to grind and over-level, could that not be okay? Besides, couldn't we just make things we don't want them to acquire early available only when they get to a certain point? My friend always used to ask why there weren't rewards for not grinding, unique ones...

From what I read, what I would think developers would do is keep changing the level cap. This section has your group capped at level 20, but after "event" occurs the cap grows to 30. Wouldn't that work? In tactical games, I like experience to be handled by encounter, not action. I think the experience should be how the group handled the encounter, not only how many villains you defeated.

Anyway, I think this is all game specific. Certain games like tactical games where the core concepts rest in battle and customization need high caps, a story driven jrpg likely needs a system like a mentioned above, and open world I like the idea of diminishing returns or soft cap as was discussed. Even then, depending on your game, breaking the mold sometimes works. @kiyasu seems to be attempting something unique, Disgaea broke the mold but individual levels mean almost nothing in Disgaea. (Although performing a world shattering move that does billions in damage has a sense of satisfaction!)
 

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Why do we feel the need to force the player to enjoy our game in a certain way. if a person wants to grind and over-level, could that not be okay?
I will answer this question in not an obvious answer. To protect your player.
This intention can be successful or not depending on how you decide to implement it. Some even go back and make the game worse.

To give you an example, let's assume an open-world game. The game provides a lot of side quests that you get skills and all if you do all of them. Then you proceed to the main story and steamroll all the contents because you're so overpowered. Of course, here is your question, "why we should not allow that?".

Here is the answer with an example case.
"I shot em and they die in a single shot. Or I can just use this skill and everyone dies. The whole quest is so boooooring".

Now, if you decide to cap the level or lock a certain mission that awards a certain skill or level cap after the main quest, you can create the more intended experience.

Which basically, if you are not aware.
Besides, couldn't we just make things we don't want them to acquire early available only when they get to a certain point?
You have answered your own question with your own question. Level cap included in this one.

My friend always used to ask why there weren't rewards for not grinding, unique ones...
The only possible reward I could think of for not-grinding would be just an achievement if you could beat the game at a low level. The reward for grinding is mostly the reward for engaging with the game mechanic. Why would you reward someone for NOT engaging with the game mechanic?

It is an odd design choice for me.
Just like how Dishonored has 70% of the skill tree focused on killing but the better ending is when you're not killing many people.
 

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For those of you that have level-ups in your game (which I assume most projects have), what is the level cap you decided to go with?
99. Honestly, I don't expect players to reach it, but it exists if they're "completionists" or whatever.

Also, how significant is each level-up in your game?

Not as much as other games. The one game uses each level up as a simple "unlock" point for things. New Quests, New Shops, Shortcuts around the map. Things of that nature. "Indirect Power" (you gain stats by getting new equipment and completing quests). I like the Indirect Power method so that people who grind for levels... can't break the game in any significant way (they still can, but they have to be clever about it rather than braindead).

The other game that is still in the "planning phases" (and won't leave planning phase until I at least have a demo of my current project running) uses XP as a Currency and Level as a Reputation Meter. That is, you spend XP to buy equipment, items, training, and other things. Your level only impacts what you have access to and can also provide "XP Cost Reductions" for the things you buy. The system is basically called "Favor". You gain XP by essentially doing "favors" for your community (each monster killed helps the community, so it's worth a set amount of XP). Then, you ask people in the community to help you out and your Reputation determines what they will offer while the Favor you have earned is what you'd essentially "pay" for services with.

What do characters gain when they do? Stats? Skills? Points to spend? Etc...

Not really anything. I tend to prefer to reward "indirect power" to my player. That is, their level really has very little bearing on how difficult or easy the game is, but what they do with the indirect power will affect how they play the game and how easy or difficult they've made the game for themselves.

I do this for two reasons.
1. Keep players from grinding levels. If there's very little reward for grinding a level, or almost no reward, then there's no reason to grind for it. Players still can if they prefer and they will get SOMETHING, but that something is usually, "first step in a new process of work".

2. I don't really like the idea of players wandering in circles while watching Netflix all disengaged just because they want to fill a meter, a bar, or get to the level with the cool new spell. If they aren't having fun, I'd rather they quit my game instead of extend playtime by walking in circles and doing something else.

So, with the first game system, players can grind their levels. There's no issue in doing that. They'll unlock quicker ways around the map, maybe some shops that have new equipment, and maybe some new quests. However, the "shortcuts and shops" are linked to the level of the main character while the "new quests" are linked to the levels of each individual party member. So, you may grind to Level 99 in the first area of the game... but if you don't yet have access to the location where you've unlocked all the quests and shortcuts... Well, your levels are worthless to you. Likewise, if you don't yet have the character in your party where those quests open up... there's no content for you to go get stats to get more powerful.

With the second game system, it's coupled with a "timer" type system. Each task and favor you undergo or obtain costs a set amount of game time. In this way, it is differentiated from Currency. Currency costs you no time and gives you something immediately. Favor costs time and contributes to running out your clock. For example, you can buy someone's existing sword or armor that they've already constructed for money. But, if you want to get some equipment made specifically to your liking, it costs favor, which means there's a "construction time" associated with it. Likewise, if you use Favor to train someone's strength from 5 to 6... they could be removed from your party for 7 days while they get stronger (doing the training). Granted, the "timer" is extremely lenient at the moment (covers something like 9,125 days), but each action drains some of that timer. Exploring some ruins? That might take a day. Maybe 2. Or, maybe you get lost and you burn 5 days doing it? Training stats can burn 7 days or more. Or, maybe less in some instances? Creating new equipment can burn 30 days or more. Main Story Quests have specific "windows of activation". If you miss one, bad things happen as you weren't there to intervene in events. If you miss the last Main Story Quest, it's game over. At the end of the timer, you lose the game if you didn't complete the last quest.

In this way, a player COULD grind for Favor and Levels... But... using it burns your timer.
 

Mythmaker19

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My plan is to have my game release in parts, Part One would have a level cap of 25. The idea would be to have all side content reward enough experience that there would be minimal grinding, if any needed at all, to hit the level cap.
 

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