Discussion on Dialogue and Ellipses

[Faye Valentine]

[Mod Edit]This is split from Pallidinthug's Dialogue Workshop. Any references not found in this thread will be found there.


As I said you earlier in the chat, your advices are great. However, I dissagree in two points:


First, the ellipsis. I don't see anything wrong using it. Why deny something that is grammatically correct? Ellipsis IS a literary resource, and RPG dialogues are not too far from book dialogues; The Ellipsis is intended to be a short pause, or to give certain feelings (can be sorrow, or doubt, just to name few) For example:


"I... don't know what to do right now. My whole life has been a lie..."


Same example WITHOUT ellipsis


"I don't know what to do right now. My whole life has been a lie."


Not the same emotion. Feels like the character is saying something, but that's it. No emotion.


Actions has no place in a spoken word, but Ellipsis is NOT an action xD. Also, friendly reminder that RMXP doesn't have a pause command


And then, facial expressions. I'll just say something: books don't have ANY visual elements, but the reader still can feel emotions, the reader still can take place in the events. Imagine them, be part of it. And as I said before, RPG dialogues are not too different from book dialogues.

 

[Bonkers]

As I said you earlier in the chat, your advices are great. However, I dissagree in two points:

First, the ellipsis. I don't see anything wrong using it. Why deny something that is grammatically correct? Ellipsis IS a literary resource, and RPG dialogues are not too far from book dialogues; The Ellipsis is intended to be a short pause, or to give certain feelings (can be sorrow, or doubt, just to name few) For example:

"I... don't know what to do right now. My whole life has been a lie..."

Same example WITHOUT ellipsis

"I don't know what to do right now. My whole life has been a lie."

Not the same emotion. Feels like the character is saying something, but that's it. No emotion.

Actions has no place in a spoken word, but Ellipsis is NOT an action xD. Also, friendly reminder that RMXP doesn't have a pause command

And then, facial expressions. I'll just say something: books don't have ANY visual elements, but the reader still can feel emotions, the reader still can take place in the events. Imagine them, be part of it. And as I said before, RPG dialogues are not too different from book dialogues.

You are correct they are a literary device, however; people use them excessively to the point an entire page or two is nothing but the little buggers.  Any literary device used in excess can be a bad thing.  I favor abstaining, and I don't think less of people who do not.  I just don't want to see them in every single sentence/scene.

Ellipses are an action, they are a pause in speech.  It represents trailing in thought, and much like an exclamation point; ellipses get overused.  That is all I am bringing to your attention.  I never said they were wrong, only that they add nothing in excess.

Don't let it...

spin your wheels.

Books can have visual elements, but not to the degree comic books and graphic novels do.  You are correct.  The reason why a reader can feel emotion is because of narration, and being able to see into a character's point of view.  We don't have that with the editor.  None of that is able to be communicated through the written word here unless we are willing to risk being meta.  In novels tone can be inferred when speech is terminated, and facial expressions are described.  

 

[cabfe]

(...)

And then, facial expressions. I'll just say something: books don't have ANY visual elements, but the reader still can feel emotions, the reader still can take place in the events. Imagine them, be part of it. And as I said before, RPG dialogues are not too different from book dialogues.

The books still have a thing that we do not put in games: descriptions.

Reading a dialogue in a RPG Maker game with all the descriptions you'd find in a novel would quickly make it boring.

Just an example I found of a "classic" novel presentation of a dialogue:

Yes, it does happen in visual novels, since they keep this format of course. The visual part is merely for illustration purpose.

However, I don't think it'll work inside RPG Maker games. Their presentation is all too graphical.

Also wanting to add that I'm making a visual novel into RM format, using lots of facesets. It's either facesets/busts or animating sprites. Text only doesn't fit.

 

[Ms Littlefish]

One last point on ellipses, because I don't want to beat a dead horse. But, I think the main point Palladin Thug is trying to make is that in a video game we have the luxury of using visuals quite easily. 

Most of communication doesn't happen with the mouth, it happens with the body. Ellipses can be used correctly and if I see a few (correctly) I'm not going to throw the game off a cliff. Heck, there is even a (...) balloon to use!

 

But, I think it would make more impact and be a good use of the medium to do it like this.

(worried or sad face): I.

(short wait, turns away from listener): I don't know what to do right now.

(listener reacts with a behavior balloon, perhaps a ?)

(speaker steps away, wait)

(listener follows)

(uses the most emotionally destroyed looking face you got): My whole life has been a lie.

A little more work. But worth. Essentially those ellipses become actions and actual time between dialogue. Sure, you can also put them right in text and if your sprites are moving and reacting, it's definitely a huge step up. But if your sprites are also communicating the pauses with their actions, then it does in a way become redundant.

 

[whitesphere]

I like using an ellipsis to indicate a pause between two sentences.  However, what I don't like is what happens more than a few times in Final Fantasy IV.  At certain key points, in the middle of an emotionally charged dialogue, a character will have, for his/her entire sentence "..."

To me, that is a non-sentence and there was no need for the character to say anything there.  If I wanted to indicate the character really didn't know what to say, I might use ellipsis like this:

You know I'd never...

I wouldn't have the ellipsis be the entire content of that character's dialogue.

In a novel, we can say "Frank stared at the floor and hung his head in shame" in response to a verbal tirade by someone he's talking to.  In RPG Maker, using the chibi sprites, there's no way to show that well (unless the player squints to see the animation).

 

[whitesphere]

I'm probably shooting my business in the foot with this next statement but you're right.  The game itself is more important than the resources used in it.  Resources should be used to enhance what you have, not filling in for what you don't have.

Best of luck with this!

I don't think you're shooting your business in the foot, Scythuz.  I believe resources --- be they tilesets, music, etc --- are what create the "window" into the game world the player sees and hears.  But the game's story is King, and if the story or world are just poorly done, the best resources are just putting lipstick on a pig.

 

[AwesomeCool]

What do you guys think of the way planescape torment does it? I ask since it is very descriptive in the text given and it is almost like reading a book.

 

[Scythuz]

I don't think you're shooting your business in the foot, Scythuz.  I believe resources --- be they tilesets, music, etc --- are what create the "window" into the game world the player sees and hears.  But the game's story is King, and if the story or world are just poorly done, the best resources are just putting lipstick on a pig.

Yeah, though some games are gonna be more focused on gameplay/mechanics rather than story. 

What do you guys think of the way planescape torment does it? I ask since it is very descriptive in the text given and it is almost like reading a book.

I feel like it does very well for the time it was released in, but nowadays I think we should be doing show and tell.  Back then it was too much telling, now it's too much showing.  We need a balance of the two I reckon.

Perhaps we need a separate thread to discuss these things?  I don't want to get in the way of Palla's workshop.

 

[cabfe]

I don't think you're shooting your business in the foot, Scythuz.  I believe resources --- be they tilesets, music, etc --- are what create the "window" into the game world the player sees and hears.  But the game's story is King, and if the story or world are just poorly done, the best resources are just putting lipstick on a pig.

Exactly.

How many times do we get to see a beautiful game, which when you actually play the game has only the graphics to "save" it?

On the other hand, some bad-looking games can be a lot of fun.

Too bad that graphics are the first thing people see (and want to see, sometimes).

You just have to look at another famous RPG Maker site (no name ) to see that a game, even poorly done, attracts many views with a fancy artwork.

That's why reviews are most important, since they deal with all the parts and judge the final result, instead of one ingredient.

What do you guys think of the way planescape torment does it? I ask since it is very descriptive in the text given and it is almost like reading a book.

I love this game.

Of course, you need to love reading too, since it's a lot of text even back then.

But can a game like this be made by a small team, even a one-man "team" like we see in the RM community?

Maybe we should limit our discussion at games in our range?

Edit: Scythuz is right, we should talk about these things elsewhere. Sorry Palladin.

 

[Sharm]

Hey, I split this conversation off from the other thread so you guys can keep chatting. Have fun!

 

[bgillisp]

Personally, I see two places where the ... makes sense.

1) Short pause in the middle of the sentence. Sure you can split that off into an action scene, but if you do that you also turn what was meant to be a short 5 second comment into a long 30 second scene. Too many of those and people will complain you padded the game with them.

2) Interrupted sentences. Sometimes players cut each other off (just like in real life), and the ... works well to illustrate that the sentence was cut off.

 

[Tsukihime]

One last point on ellipses, because I don't want to beat a dead horse. But, I think the main point Palladin Thug is trying to make is that in a video game we have the luxury of using visuals quite easily. 


Most of communication doesn't happen with the mouth, it happens with the body. Ellipses can be used correctly and if I see a few (correctly) I'm not going to throw the game off a cliff. Heck, there is even a (...) balloon to use!

Speaking of balloons....


Would the ellipses balloon be more acceptable than presenting the same effect in a dialogue box?

 

[Archeia]

In a way, the ellipses balloon is better as it adds the momentary pause to the dialogue but at the same time...overusing that could seriously irritate someone.

 

[Kes]

I would be a someone who was irritated by it.  If you want an example of how not to handle ellipses balloons, play some of The Contract in completed games.  There are more balloon icons packed into 20 minutes than most people put into a whole game.  When accompanied by the standard SE as well...

And there's an example of what I think is a reasonable use of an ellipsis - to indicate that the speaker hasn't finished the sentence because it doesn't need spelling out.  When used sparingly, it can be fine, just as the use of balloons can be fine when not overdone.  My preference is, though, to avoid the use of balloons as much as possible, as I feel they are a bit heavy handed.  If you think that the player might not get the point without using one, then it might mean that you need to have another look at the quality of the dialogue.

 

[Yato]

2) Interrupted sentences. Sometimes players cut each other off (just like in real life), and the ... works well to illustrate that the sentence was cut off.

I disagree with this point. Ellipses are meant to show a trailing off, not an abrupt cutting off. A dash (--) is much better in that case.

 

[EternalShadow]

I use ellipses to trail off, or to show pauses in dialogue along with \.\.\. So the player doesn't just think the game crashed or something. (As might happen if you try to show a pause without any action)

 

[whitesphere]

Personally, I see two places where the ... makes sense.

1) Short pause in the middle of the sentence. Sure you can split that off into an action scene, but if you do that you also turn what was meant to be a short 5 second comment into a long 30 second scene. Too many of those and people will complain you padded the game with them.

2) Interrupted sentences. Sometimes players cut each other off (just like in real life), and the ... works well to illustrate that the sentence was cut off.

I agree with #1.

As for #2, I use the same convention I use when writing.

I use the double (or triple) dash, so it looks like this:

Frank:  "You took the Crystal!  You're a---"

George: "Quiet, Frank.  If you slander the knight here, he is honor-bound to challenge you to a duel, immediately."

Frank: "But I---"

George: "You know he's slaughter you in seconds.  Now, calm down."

Frank: "Fine.  But we need the Crystal back."

I imagine that's merely a matter of preference though. 

 

[bgillisp]

Yeah, --- might work better. I was never trained to use it except to hyphenate cut off words though, so didn't even think of it.

Though, here is a question then. What would be a good way to represent a word that is said but the character doesn't hear it? For instance, what if the character was to say:

X, you are a jerk!

And all you hear is

X, you are (mumbled)

Dash? ...? Something else?

 

[Ms Littlefish]

@ Tsukihime. It was more of an example. I personally would think of other ways to illustrate silence but it is an option that can visually display the silence and also make the tiniest of actual pauses. They would essentially mean the same thing so it's really the writer's call. I agree with others that it could certainly get annoying, but it would be for the same reason that typing it out is annoying. If it's that excessive I would begin to wonder why no one is ever finishing their sentences. XD

 

[Tuxedo Leila]

@bgillisp In that case, maybe you could gradually change the font from small to large instead of using ellipses.