Do you do anything about "X Random Enemies" skills?

[Wavelength]

By default, the "X Random Enemies" scope in RPG Maker's skill database is the only middle ground between single-target spells and spells that hit everyone.  But I was disappointed the first time I tried it and saw that it could hit the same target over and over - in general I've found this makes such skills much more powerful against a single enemy than against groups of enemies, and creates a strange divide where either the skill is extremely overpowered (compared to other skills) in boss battles, or is nearly useless in standard fights, depending on how you tune its power.

It's especially weird since I can't think of a single professional game where "random enemies" scopes were implemented as such.  They almost definitely exist, but they must be rare because in my RPG playing legacy I've either never encountered it or have forgotten the few that did use it.

In one of my games I tweaked the code so that such skills can only hurt an enemy once per cast; subsequent hits are ignored (I phrase it as, for example, "Hits 1-3 random enemies", so the player doesn't feel cheated).  In another, I have a couple spells that hits a random enemy, but the spell disappears for the rest of the battle if there's only 1 enemy left after you use it - so it provides the greatest value when you use it in a situation where there is a level of randomness you have to manage.

So, how do you manage these potentially balance-breaking skills?  Do you change coding / use scripts?  Do you do something clever with the formulas?  Do you just let the balance fall where it may?  Or, do you avoid the "Random Enemies" scope altogether?

 

[Bell Kruz]

For me, I choose to avoid it. At first I was thinking that the skills only available in non-boss fight but after some test I understand that if there are exclusive skill for non-boss fight there should be an exclusive skill for boss fight but because it's time consuming I prefer to avoid it.

Well, just my opinion~

 

[JosephSeraph]

Final Fantasy X did this with Rikku's items and overdrives, and Lulu's Fury. Using a Thunder Gem against a lightning-vulnerable boss was pretty powerful and fun, and using them to hurt small enemies was fun too. Each individual hit wasn't very strong but they did add up very well.

If I were to use such items, however, I'd rely less on damage and more on % chances of status inflictions, debuffs, etc.

Having a somewhat weak poison attack that hits 4 random enemies with a 40% chance of poisoning each is powerful but not op.

Also escalating damage with HP left is a nice way to do it, too! Having a skill that hits multiple enemies and deals more damage the more HP they have could be a nice way to go!

 

[Kes]

I have a few skills which do debuffs or status afflictions for X random enemies, otherwise I tend to avoid them.  What intrigues me is this:

In one of my games I tweaked the code so that such skills can only hurt an enemy once per cast; subsequent hits are ignored (I phrase it as, for example, "Hits 1-3 random enemies", so the player doesn't feel cheated). 

Is this in the public domain?

 

[Uzuki]

The Dance level spells in the Shin Megami Tensei series, specifically the Devil Survivor series, uses this method. What helped that problem is that you rarely fought a group of demons that would have the same elemental weakness. In the Devil Survivor series when you enter a battle you want to take out the demon leader so you can end the battle as soon as possible. So you will see the demon leader in the group is weak to fire, but the other two demons either absorbs, negates, or reflects fire spells. Now the player has to gamble whether they want the risk of healing,losing a turn, or getting damaged so they can kill the demon leader or not. Of course when your up against a single boss you can abuse this for multiple attacks if they're weak to certain elements, but the bosses in the SMT games have so much health I see it as a legit strategy. My advice would be to weaken the skill to the level of a single target skill or lower. Sure it's kinda overpowered in the beginning of the game, but if you scale the difficulty the right way it will level itself out.

 

[Mihel]

For me the middle ground between single target attacks and attacks that hit everyone are AoE skills, that way you can have more control over who you want to attack. This also makes sense with some deep piercing attacks with polearms that hit every enemy in a row.

I don't use skills that hit random enemies much, except some elemental skills. Like for example when calling magic thunderstorm, the lightnings hit randomly.

I second ksjp17, is that script available to use?

 

[Wavelength]

Great to hear everyone's opinions so far, and also nice to know that I'm not the only one who finds the implementation problematic.

I think that the idea of using these multi-target skills for status debuffs is very clever!

Thanks for the examples in FFX and SMT - SMT had the benefit of a lot of other really smart gameplay systems to go along with it but the idea of having lots of enemies with severe weaknesses or extreme strengths (to the point of absorption) against certain elements is really interesting and could maybe work in a well-designed RM game.

Mihel - AoE is an interesting idea... are you using Yanfly's script or some other way to implement it?

Is [your script] in the public domain?

I second ksjp17, is that script available to use?

The game was in RMXP and it's not a script per se but a lot of different tweaks inside the Script Editor that aren't easy to pull together.  I can see that there's some interest in such a script, though, so I'll try to construct one this week.

 

[Probotector 200X]

Some Final Fantasy's do this...I forgot that FFX did.

In FF7, I believe there are multiple Limit Breaks that get multiple hits against random targets, always the same number, so better against single enemies. I think even Cloud's Omni-Slash does this.

FF8 has a few Limit Breaks kinda like that too.

Even Final Fantasy Record Keeper has Limit Breaks that hit random targets multiple times, and...it's better against single opponents.

I myself use this for some skills. My latest version was for a Lightning-elemental, luck-themed character. Lightning/Thunder being luck based, makes sense, right?

I'd love an Area of Effect method for skills. There actually are scripts that do that, huh? Gotta go check them out now!

 

[Mihel]

@Wavelenght: Yes, that's the one I use, I'm very fond of Yanfly's scripts in general. It's also very easy to configure.
 
@Probotector: Speaking of FFs, iirc all highest tier elemental spells in FF12 were AoE.
 

My latest version was for a Lightning-elemental, luck-themed character. Lightning/Thunder being luck based, makes sense, right?

Me too, I'm working on a character proficient in Lightning spells with high LUK. In my headcanon Lightning/Thunder element make sense as being more luck based compared to the others.

 

[Wavelength]

Alright, here's the "Enhanced Random Targets" script for Ace, for those of you who were requesting it!

(It's free to use, with credit, for non-commercial games, but requires a license for commercial or semi-commercial (such as entry into the IGMC) use.)

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I didn't remember those skills from the mid-gen Final Fantasies!  Can't believe they'd design it like that.  I can see it for Limit Breaks since each character only had one (if I remember correctly) so they should be generally usable, but for other skills, shocker!

And I agree with you guys, a spitfire-type lightning character could be fun to use with luck-based skills.

 

[JosephSeraph]

since you were so awesome as to make this script, I'd like to ask an extension, which'd be to have a random number of repeats happening! Like, this skill can repeat 2 to 6 times! that would be awesome! ;w/ <3 tyyyyyyyyyyyyyy '>w<)/

 

[Wavelength]

since you were so awesome as to make this script, I'd like to ask an extension, which'd be to have a random number of repeats happening! Like, this skill can repeat 2 to 6 times! that would be awesome! ;w/ <3 tyyyyyyyyyyyyyy '>w<)/

Can you describe a little more in detail what you are looking for?  Like, come up with a skill, a tag, and an enemy troop, and kind of describe what you want to happen when the player uses the skill against that troop (and, if possible, how that would differ from the closest thing you can do with the script right now).

A lot of variable-hits behavior can kind of be accomplished with the existing tags, but there are probably some fringe cases where it can't, so if you can convince me there's a need for a feature, I'll be happy to add it.

 

[Dirge]

I think what Wavelength meant was this:

You've got a skill that hits one player-chosen enemy and two random other enemies, say for 100 damage. You've got a troop of four enemies, A to D. Player targets A, the skill deals 100 damage to A, B and C. 

Then say you have a tag with <repeats: 2, 6>. The skill will hit again between 2 and 6 times, picking new random targets each time. 

That said, would it work just by using the build in "repeats" option?

 

[Wavelength]

I think what Wavelength meant was this:

You've got a skill that hits one player-chosen enemy and two random other enemies, say for 100 damage. You've got a troop of four enemies, A to D. Player targets A, the skill deals 100 damage to A, B and C. 

Then say you have a tag with <repeats: 2, 6>. The skill will hit again between 2 and 6 times, picking new random targets each time. 

That said, would it work just by using the build in "repeats" option?

No, it wouldn't work by just using the built-in "repeats" option; that will double up on the number of hits that each chosen target takes rather than pick new targets each time (which, if I read the code correctly, is exactly the way it would work by default if you used a Repeats greater than 1 with a skill that targets multiple random Enemies).

What you could do is simulate it fairly well by using the "full" and "multi" arguments; the number of hits and the order they are done in are almost completely random.  Using a <random targets: 5, full, multi> tag on a four-member party or troop will guarantee you that each member is being targeted at least once but beyond that the total number and distribution of the hits will vary wildly and without pattern.

So the main argument I could see for adding a "max: x" parameter (to create a range, as in <random targets: 3, max 6> to pick a random number of targeting attempts between 3 and 6) would be to offer finer control over the number of targets instead of leaving it up to obscure mathematical calculations done on the tags and the party size.  The main argument against adding another argument is that it makes the script more complex to wrap your mind around (despite its ease of use, I don't think it's always easy to figure out which tags are appropriate to your gameplay).  So if I can think of a good way to add this in without increasing complexity by a lot, I'll add it as a new feature.

Thanks for your suggestions, guys!