Do you remember the "Row" thing?

[orochii]

In the "old" Final Fantasies, there was this thing called Rows. Your character can be on the front row, which meant they were closer to battle, or the back row, meaning they were safer behind their comrades.

Front rows had a boost melee attacks, while back rows had a boost on defense.

Here a vid to help illustrate so people that aren't familiar with it can take a peek.

(This "spoiler" actually contains spoilers!)

Spoiler

In this battle, all party members are positioned on the back row to get the defense boost, so the boss doesn't hits them THAT hard.

So after this introduction, what is the thing that keeps me thinking about the row thing? It's pretty simple. In RPG Maker XP and VX (at VXA isn't necessary, you can emulate it using features), exists this "Position" property for classes. This "Position" determines only how often will enemies target the ally that has that class. If your character is a back-row, chances are halved. If your character is on the middle, it's 1/4 less. Front row leaves it unmodified.

For some time I thought, "well, this could be improved! making position be changeable while in battle, just like good-old Final Fantasy!". But is it really meaningful? Let's illustrate the point. If you have a mage, which has poor defenses and attack, it will be confined forever to the back. Any person that understands how rows work will do the same. Warriors could like to switch if their attacks are useless (fighting against a highly defensive monster or something), and the defense boost happens to be more useful. But if that's not the case, if you have some defense-ignoring attack for example, it will be unnecesary, UNLESS that defensive boost is really that mandatory (in which case there is no strategic value, and you could just remove the rows and make the monster hit a little weaker).

I still see some potential on the row mechanic, something that makes it be meaningful no matter what class archetype your character is. One aspect where rows can be cool is having an impact on targetting range. Being on the back makes you unable to hit back-row enemies with melee. Some spells can also have a range restriction. It's another restriction to give to skills, like cooldowns and costs.

So that's the topic, I hope it interests you people and that we can have a good debate on the subject,

Orochii Zouveleki

 

[kerbonklin]

The biggest Row flaw i've ever seen was FF7, getting the Long-Reach materia IN THE BEGINNING OF THE GAME and then repetitively maxing it to get one more for each character. Eventually by mid-game or so, the front row no longer exists and everyone gains so much more survivability.

Speaking of FF, I believe FF4 did a nice job on Rows, because the player is forced to always have upto 3 front / 2 back, or 2 front / 3 back. However the character roster could have been slightly different to make the system give more difficulty.

I think more games definitely need to make a change to the pros and cons of rows to make it less "traditional".

Luckily the CDR Rows script for Ace by Ceodore provides special functions like affecting HIT / EVA / MEV, maybe whatever else parameters you can code into it yourself, and also give enemies Rows as well.

 

[Pugh95Bear]

You, muramasa, are a hammer.


This topic is a nail.


You just hit the nail so hard on the head that it obliterated the stud.


I have always like the row idea, and the limits and such are PERFECT.


And yes, FFIV was amazing on this.

 

[Eschaton]

The biggest Row flaw i've ever seen was FF7, getting the Long-Reach materia IN THE BEGINNING OF THE GAME and then repetitively maxing it to get one more for each character. Eventually by mid-game or so, the front row no longer exists and everyone gains so much more survivability.

This is why it's important that you grindproof your dayum games.  What the ****?!  Who does this?

I played Final Fantasy VII all the way through once.  I got Knights of the Round.  I beat every WEAPON.  I still didn't master a single materia.

For shame, kerbonklin, that excessive grinding would not only appeal to you (or anyone), but that it was the tactic you used to survive instead of, I dunno, strategy.

Sorry, I'm drunk.

 

[kerbonklin]

Lol Eschaton, the first time I played the game, I missed it and didn't know it existed. =P

But yeah people who did no-life the game did exactly that, they had it equipped 24/7 so they can get more of it for each character.  Makes the game into easy-mode.

And a lot of noobies and speed-runners like easy-mode. x_x

 

[orochii]

Maybe the idea behind giving the long-reach materia early is that, if I'm not mistaken, characters have a set kind of weapon, and no one of these is ranged (except maybe for Cid's spear?? dunno). Bad thing is that as kerbonklin said, you can master it and pass it to your next party member. Making the front row "potentially inexistant" is... bad... Pretty much makes the row thing gimmicky.
 
There is one thing that RM2k3 did pretty well on the row thing. In RM2k3's default battle system, you can't have ALL your characters on the back row (and actually having everyone on the back row doesn't makes sense anyway, because there is no human wall guarding your back allies, so it would be kind of surreal if they get any defensive bonus). But back on topic, this small limitation kind of mimicks FFIV's row handling, giving you the versatibility of how much characters you need to have on the front row, but, compared to the FFIV's example of course, lacks the "everyone change!" function, which was pretty comfortable when some nasty guy attacked you from behind.

About the enemy rows, there is one possibility, which is determining their row based on their position.

We have enemy A. If there is another enemy to the right of A, which we reference to as B, this enemy's row value is B's row+1. Any row value higher than, let's say, 2, is considered a back row. That would mimick a little how some of the old Final Fantasies managed the enemy formations (thought the enemy rows at FF were defined inside the formation data).

Another possibility is making enemies able to switch rows, but it maybe needs you to consider making a formation grid or something.

I just love rows, and formations, and that kind of stuff,

Orochii Zouveleki

 

[kerbonklin]

Expanding on the enemy-row thing:

A good sample of giving enemies Rows would be the game Radiant Historia. Enemies were on a 3x3 grid (row/column) and the player had specific skills that could move them around on that grid, or the enemy AI could use a turn to move themselves around. Grid positioning altered the physical damage of an enemy (Front row deals more damage AND takes more damage in return)  And then some enemies had special AI when in certain row /column positioning(s) (like a dangerous attack) so you have to keep them off those positions.

 Row3    Row2    Row1

    X           X          X         Actor1

    X           X          X         Actor2

    X           X          X         Actor3

  0.5x      0.75x      1x       <<<<<<< Physical Damage dealt/taken multiplier for enemies (Note enemies are pretty strong normally)

 

[Paladin-Cleric of Awesome]

I think it would be interesting to have some reason to bring your Mage or weakly defended character to the front. Ie their magic will only work on all enemies when their at th front because otherwise their team mates would be in the way.

Or a healer character can't heal all allies unless they areat the back because their wise the couldn't see who they were healing.

Or have it so your archers do more damage with some special attacks if they are at the back. Ie rain of arrows.

Melee characters get the skill cover while in the front row automatically because that's essentially what the are, but lose it when placed in the back row.

I like this idea for som proper strangely gaming. I may have to find out if its possible!

 

[Omnimental]

Another way you could mix things up is instead of your row determining an attack bonus it determines your accuracy.  Attacks/skills are more likely to hit in the front row (you're right in their face), but you're safer in the back row (and it's harder to hit your opponents).

 

[orochii]

About the Radiant Historia, just saw a video, and it's fun how you can smack one enemy against the other, so the next character is able to hit two enemies at once. Also, overall, the grid system seems great! Another thing I like from that is that, from your example, both allies and enemies have the same mechanic, same rule, that makes things even and I think that's great too, it's good design to make the rules work on both sides. The system gets simplified and more harmonious.

I really love that game mechanics, I'll see if I can get to play it!

And yes Paladin-Cleric! that's some of the uses for rows as a restriction. Thing is, the mage part is fine, back for single target, front to hit all. Maybe make its defenses not suck completely and voilà (let him survive at least one-two turns, that you can feel the danger of being there, but making it possible and not feel like being punished).

The healer, thing is that if you make his main role (healing) to be restricted to back-row only, it restricts the healing spell, yes, but you need to make something really meaningful so people would care about getting them back into the front. One example could be making a Paladin instead of a cleric (a fighter-healer hybrid). No dedicated healer as some people at the "healer topic" suggested.

Any ranged, like bowmen and gunmen, I think they will be confined to the back (unless they're some kind of hybrid like thief-archer). That doesn't means it's bad, I suppose some characters will inevitably be restricted to one row. Same for putting a melee on the back, it would mean that the melee is close to death, so you better retire it, change it to another melee, and heal it while on the back (or something).

Really good input guys,

Orochii Zouveleki

PD.: Isn't there someone who actually hates this mechanic? Would be great to hear the other side of the coin.

 

[Cozzer]

Hmm, I don't think there's a reason to hate the mechanic, but it can be implemented poorly.

Look at FF6: in the first half of the game, your best physical fighters have options that let them circumvent the penality for being in the back row (Sabin with Blitzes and Edgar with AutoCrossbow/Chainsaw/Drill, for example).

So, the row option only makes the most powerful characters even more overpowered, while poor Locke has to stay in the front row if he wants to deal a decent amount of damage.

In the second half, Magic slowly becomes the standard and more powerful attack option for everybody.

So, you can basically put everybody in the back row and forget about it.

I think a better way to do rows would be making a character's position affect all damage dealt and received, both physical and magical.

This way, it would actually become a strategic choice of "which characters do I put in harm's way to let them deal more damage?" and not only "put the fighters in the front row and the mages in the back row".

(Also, Radiant Historia is cool. But that's something way more complex than a simple rows system)

 

[Paladin-Cleric of Awesome]

For archers I was actually thinking of a reverse Mage, back row for multiple targets because they shoot lots of arrows up and they descend to hit multiple targets for less damage, but front row is for single target with more damage.

As to the healer, you could do it paladin like, but at the same time, you could make the cleric like the dungeons and dragons clerics who wear heavy armour and weild maces for massive damage, so it would be good to use them in both positions. Or your healer could also be the one who can take the most damage, so having them in the front row would protect those in the back, or maybe their defensive spells only work while in the front row because that's were they do the best work. Something like that.

Shake up how healers are seen, and shake up how the rest of the classes are used. I'm trying to think of a good reason for melee characters to be put in the back row. Maybe a regeneration system where they move back for a breather and regain Hp or tp or MP for special attacks or something.

 

[Cozzer]

I like the idea of every class having a different mechanic for the back row.

 

[Chaos Avian]

Etrian Odyssey handles rows in an interesting way. Sometimes. One idea is the Medic and Monk; the Medic is usually stuck in the back row healing when necessary, but they do have a physical skill that makes them entirely competent front row fighters (although your defense will still suck and be worse), but when not healing you Medic can smash faces in with his mace~ 

The monk is either a front row fighter, or a back row healer, entirely your choice. Heck you can even have 2 for those very different reasons.

As for skills, when have a gunner right? Stuck in the back row most of the time? But what about if different skills or weapons influenced the power of the attacks? In EO3, the Arbalist is a slow glass cannon back row fighter, but with the Front Mortar skill is an incredibly powerful attack used in the front row (but if you get hit...). We also know that some guns are effective at different ranges right? Sniper gun for back row, shotgun for front row.

In EO4, the Rune Master (black mage) has an ability that links elemental chains with your physical attackers, but full effectiveness, they need to be in the front row with them. Or leave them the back row to cast regular spells.

Also spending a turn to swap rows, yay or nay? Personally I say nay, why should it take a turn to shift positions? Obviously a restriction to one switch a turn would suffice.