Do You Treat HP/MP As "Base Stats"?

[Frostorm]

What I mean is, do you treat MaxHP & MaxMP as a function of another state (i.e. DEF/MDF), or do you treat them as separate, standalone things? Basically, in my project, I made DEF also increase MaxHP and MDF increase MaxMP. In conjunction, I don't offer any equipment w/ +HP or +MP. As a result, the player's health and mana pools are a function of their DEF/MDF stats + the base amount gained each level as dictated by the growth curve. Because of the way I set it up, I'm considering removing +HP & +MP from the stat allocations page altogether. Does such a system sound appealing? How did you guys do it on your projects?

 

[gstv87]

I reworked the stats to make HP a function of CON.
I calculated it outside of the program with a spreadsheet formula, but the curve itself is manually written.
I also added whatever change was needed, to items and skills, to make up for it. So any change in CON via an item or a skill will also change HP accordingly.
that way, if I need to make a new character or class, I can simply randomize the base stats, and get the whole set of values automatically, through that spreadsheet.

I guess I have to add fixing that to my to-do list.... :/

 

[Ami]

do you treat MaxHP & MaxMP as a function of another state (i.e. DEF/MDF), or do you treat them as separate, standalone things?

I use HP as Defensive (alongside with DEF and MDF),and MP (Stamina) as Offensive (Alongside with ATK and MAT).

 

[jonthefox]

I usually make them independent of each other. I do something like this:

HP = your overall defensive ability (how much damage you can withstand before falling in battle)
MP = your mental capacity for using spells (how many spellcasts before mental exhaustion)

ATK = the potency of your attacks (how much damage you do with physical attacks and skills)
MAT = the potency of your spells (how much damage/healing you do with spells/ability to inflict status spells)

MDF = your resistance to mind-based spells and status effects

AGI = your overall initiative (how quickly and how frequently you get a turn in battle)


I then sometimes either discard or have different use cases for DEF and LUCK...DEF I either discard or make as a natural evasion stat where each point of DEF gives some % of damage reduction (I prefer that over an RNG chance to dodge) and reduces physical-based status effects. I often turn LUK into my armor stat, which I keep separate from DEF, for various reasons. And then if I use TP, I make it kind of like stamina - basically like how MP functions, but for physical skills instead of spells.

 

[duty]

I've always liked the idea of linking defense with the health stat, as that seemed to make more sense to me than damage reduction. Doing the same for magic defense seems like the logical next step, too.

In my own projects, I typically repurpose the defense stats and have armor just increase Max HP.

 

[Nova By Creative Robot]

I use the default max HP and max MP so that the players will have more flexibility when it comes to creating their own builds. More importantly, for balance.

I thought about it carefully,

If for example, I create a skill that deals damage based on the max HP of the character. Then if Defense and HP is tied up in one attribute that would easily make the skill broken since

the character will be able to deal large amounts of damage + high hp+ high def. Also the character would be able to tank both formula calculated damage as well as constant value damage

In the end it depends on how you do your damage formulas. Goodluck!

 

[RachelTheSeeker]

HP and MP are best left as-is in my mind. The most "complex" stat I prefer in my VX Ace games is fusing MAT and MDF together. It's both an offense and defense stat, similar INT or SPI in all other RPG Makers prior (except RMXP).

I've pondered equipment that specifically adds HP or MP in exchange for less DEF. I've also pondered skipping a specific DEF stat altogether for armor (a la Final Fantasy Tactics), or handling ATK in the same way as INT / SPI. Of course, this is all just untested theory right now. I just don't like complex formulas for my games; what you see statistically is what you get.

 

[Wavelength]

I never, ever* have Max HP or Max MP be dependent on another parameter, and I also never "compute" any stat at all from a parameter (such as Attack from Strength). Doing so adds extra complexity that rarely serves any good purpose. There are at least three advantages of keeping it simple like this:

1. Clarity - Players never have to memorize, read up on, or wonder in confusion about what "Body" or "Charisma" are doing for them in battle. If you improve your ATK stat, you know you are doing more physical damage.
2. Choice of Builds - Avoiding mixed relationships (e.g. ATK derived from Body and Dexterity), and keeping things to One Stat = One Function, allows players to choose what they want their character(s) to specialize in. Tradeoffs are clear and easy to manage, and players who enjoy specializing in one things can do so.
3. Balance - It's considerably easier to balance a game when you can easily calculate how changing one stat or other lever will affect damage amounts and the flow of battle. The more calculations or mixing of parameters and stats happen along the way, the more muddied this relationship becomes as you try to tweak balance to hit the right difficulty.

* ....with one exception. In a game I'm making where Max HP constantly changes over the course of a dungeon due to the effects of Exhaustion, I do use a parameter called Vigor where your "true" Max HP (your Max HP after resting away all Exhaustion) is 10x your Vigor stat. Max HP is, for all intents and purposes, the only function of the Vigor stat. So most of the above logic still applies; it's just that I separated Vigor and Max HP so it's clear that the underlying stat doesn't change due to Exhaustion; only the Max HP limit itself does. And therefore it's clear that it's not a permanent loss in Max HP, because you still have the underlying stat to guide it once you rest up.

 

[Frostorm]

I never, ever* have Max HP or Max MP be dependent on another parameter, and I also never "compute" any stat at all from a parameter (such as Attack from Strength). Doing so adds extra complexity that rarely serves any good purpose. There are at least three advantages of keeping it simple like this:

1. Clarity - Players never have to memorize, read up on, or wonder in confusion about what "Body" or "Charisma" are doing for them in battle. If you improve your ATK stat, you know you are doing more physical damage.
2. Choice of Builds - Avoiding mixed relationships (e.g. ATK derived from Body and Dexterity), and keeping things to One Stat = One Function, allows players to choose what they want their character(s) to specialize in. Tradeoffs are clear and easy to manage, and players who enjoy specializing in one things can do so.
3. Balance - It's considerably easier to balance a game when you can easily calculate how changing one stat or other lever will affect damage amounts and the flow of battle. The more calculations or mixing of parameters and stats happen along the way, the more muddied this relationship becomes as you try to tweak balance to hit the right difficulty.

* ....with one exception. In a game I'm making where Max HP constantly changes over the course of a dungeon due to the effects of Exhaustion, I do use a parameter called Vigor where your "true" Max HP (your Max HP after resting away all Exhaustion) is 10x your Vigor stat. Max HP is, for all intents and purposes, the only function of the Vigor stat. So most of the above logic still applies; it's just that I separated Vigor and Max HP so it's clear that the underlying stat doesn't change due to Exhaustion; only the Max HP limit itself does.

Hmm, that was kind of my goal...as in I was trying to simplify by making DEF (Constitution in my project) increase HP, in addition to the usual physical dmg mitigation. I don't offer equipment w/ +HP, only +DEF. Basically, I was trying to save the player from having to weigh "should I stack more HP or more DEF?" Right now, I simply have it so 1 DEF adds 3 HP, which would be tacked on to the amount derived from the actor's parameter curve. That way, the player knows if they want more survivability, they stack DEF (CON).

It's like in WoW, where you don't ever actually increase HP directly (besides via a few rare exceptions), but rather stack Stamina instead since 1 STA = 10 HP in WoW. Same concept, different numbers.

I did the same for the magical side, though it's a bit different. The goal is to make the player choose between hitting hard w/ their spells by stacking MAT (Intellect in my project) or being able to cast more spells by stacking MP instead. However, I don't ever want a player to choose between...say +5 MAT vs +100 MP (since base parameters and HP/MP are almost never on the same "scale"). That's why I integrated MP into MDF (Willpower in my project). That way the player can compare between +5 MAT vs +5 MDF and they would have relatively the same weight. The goal has always been to improve player experience.

tldr; I want players to feel like a point in each stat is roughly equal in value.

Edit: Lemme know if u want me to remove the color formatting.

 

[Wavelength]

Hmm, that was kind of my goal...as in I was trying to simplify by making DEF (Constitution in my project) increase HP, in addition to the usual physical dmg mitigation. I don't offer equipment w/ +HP, only +DEF. Basically, I was trying to save the player from having to weigh "should I stack more HP or more DEF?" Right now, I simply have it so 1 DEF adds 3 HP, which would be tacked on to the amount derived from the actor's parameter curve. That way, the player knows if they want more survivability, they stack DEF (CON).

Ah, I do get what you're saying. But I would say that three stats which each serve one purpose, are better than one stat which serves three different purposes (unless some of those three purposes seem like they are very low value on their own - for example, in some games Critical Hit Rates are a lot less valuable than Attack Power. In such a case, you might want to look into how to make it more valuable).

Additionally, if the player wouldn't have a good reason to choose one or the other between More HP vs. More DEF, then you must ask yourself why you have both stats in the first place - it's just serving to further obfuscate damage output. Sometimes More DEF would be a better choice for heal-heavy teams whereas More HP be a better choice for teams without healing, or More DEF would be good against large numbers of weak enemies whereas More HP would be good against a few strong hits. But if the choice isn't important enough or clear enough that the gameplay feels different based on the choice you make... then it's usually best to just roll it into a single stat by removing DEF from all damage formulas and adding its "value" back into the Max HP stat.

It's like in WoW, where you don't ever actually increase HP directly (besides via a few rare exceptions), but rather stack STAM instead since 1 STAM = 10 HP in WoW. Same concept, different numbers.

I was a total casual who never paid much attention to stats in WoW, but if STAM's only purpose is to affect Max HP, then that's fine - it's just a little less clear and more confusing than having things affect Max HP directly. However, if STAM affects a bunch of different things, or if other parameters also affect Max HP, then it gets really muddy, really quickly.

 

[Frostorm]

Ah, I do get what you're saying. But I would say that three stats which each serve one purpose, are better than one stat which serves three different purposes (unless some of those three purposes seem like they are very low value on their own - for example, in some games Critical Hit Rates are a lot less valuable than Attack Power. In such a case, you might want to look into how to make it more valuable).

Yea that was kind of the issue I ran into regarding DEF, since I use armor scaling (division) instead of default formula (subtraction), therefore diminishing results are a thing. This makes DEF less appealing, especially when you stack more. It could be fixed by tweaking the coefficients on the armor scaling side, but that also runs the risk of making either the low lv or high lv side too OP. Thus I went with just making DEF also grant HP, to make it more appealing. A similar thought process applies in regards to MDF/MP, which makes less sense mechanically, but thankfully does make sense thematically (Willpower increasing how many spells you can cast while also increasing your resistance to magic in general).

Additionally, if the player wouldn't have a good reason to choose one or the other between More HP vs. More DEF, then you must ask yourself why you have both stats in the first place - it's just serving to further obfuscate damage output.

Yes, this is definitely a downside I'd really like to avoid. I would actually go ahead and do as you suggest, but I just remembered I have several skills in-game that use DEF as part of its dmg formula (mostly tanking/shield related skills). So atm, the only difference between HP and DEF is that HP helps against both Physical & Magical whereas DEF is obviously only Physical.

I was a total casual who never paid much attention to stats in WoW, but if STAM's only purpose is to affect Max HP, then that's fine - it's just a little less clear and more confusing than having things affect Max HP directly. However, if STAM affects a bunch of different things, or if other parameters also affect Max HP, then it gets really muddy, really quickly.

Yea, the ONLY thing STAM did was grant +HP. Its literal only purpose was so that an equipment's stat block would look "clean" like:
+8 STR
+8 STA
instead of:
+8 STR
+80 HP
But I totally agree that if it was bundled w/ a bunch of other effects, it'd get complicated.

Edit: This may just be my opinion, but my belief is that base parameters should all be of roughly equal value, as in: 1ATK = 1DEF = 1AGI = 1MAT = 1MDF = 1LUK

 

[KazukiT]

I use HP traditionally where it rises up and down based on the equipment or the level(if the game has levels) of the characters. MP I use as a limited resource so you have to use it more carefully. Although, you could recover MP by guarding or using a skill that uses a little HP to recover it.