Does anyone have a conflicted response to feedback?

[Nereid]

Not sure why, but despite the norm being no feedback (unless they're linked somewhere), when I do get some... I fear it, and this happens even if prior feedback was positive, although I suppose all of it is kind of not clearcut, which is probably the reason why one would have such a response... but fear is ridiculous, isn't it? I mean, I once got someone recording their reactions for a mere five minutes, and they were mostly uninterested seemingly, and could barely read what I wrote... someone then posted a video over ten minutes long, and instead of thinking "oh, this is likely going to be more feedback than I've ever got" and start watching... I didn't, because, as usual, anxiety is the strange response to the very thing I requested...

 

[sunnyFVA]

Being nervous about getting feedback is a natural response, but one you'll have to learn to work through as a creator. After all, if you weren't intending for other people to experience and have thoughts about your work, you wouldn't distribute it, right?

You could also try thinking of (especially negative) feedback like this: if there's something on your face, even though it may be uncomfortable in the moment to be told that, wouldn't you prefer to know and do something about it rather than unknowingly walk around with it all day?

 

[Nereid]

Yeah, but writing games is slightly different from random stuff on faces... after spending months writing a story, it's sort of how I want it to be told... so, it's also a bit conflicted, but I end up perhaps resistant to the feedback, especially if someone makes such a bold request as to overhaul all my writing, which would obviously be impossible... other than that, I might be so used to negativity that I always expect it, which is why it seems weird whenever I get positive feedback...

 

[sunnyFVA]

The intent of my analogy was to say that there can always be things you missed or did not think of. Perspectives other than your own are valuable. It is not advisable to think you always know better or have already done the best that can be done.

especially if someone makes such a bold request as to overhaul all my writing, which would obviously be impossible

You have to parse the feedback. If someone gives obviously unhelpful advice like "make the story something else", you should not value it the same as someone saying "I thought this section felt out of place and broke the flow" or "I'm not sure I understand why this character behaved this way". Perhaps you have your reasons for why the piece is like that, and you don't need to just outright agree with or bend to other people's opinions, but improving your understanding of how your work might be received is always useful.

 

[SGHarlekin]

That's classic beginner dev behaviour. We're having a podcast, where me and 2 other dudes play and review RM games, and we get a butthurt dev every once in a while.

Feedback will always be a mixed bag. None of us is a professional gametester, you're getting "Player" feedback, meaning it can be anything. The story might be exactly how you want it to be told, yet the player can find it sh*t.

Nobody is stopping you from making a game just for you, your family or friends, but if you want a public game, heck, a commercial game perhaps, you'll have to deal with any type of feedback. No way around that. It's your responsibillity as the developer to dissect all feedback received and implement what is good, and avoid what is bad. Not all feedback needs to be put in the game. Not all feedback will be constructive, simply because a player will always just tell you how they felt while playing your game. They don't care about technicalities, they're here to have fun. And if they don't have fun, you're gonna feel it.

As a developer, never react butthurt. We all understand how you want to protect your "baby", but that's not how you grow as a developer. Same goes for explaining things away. If something in your game is jank, and you start explaining how it's the engines fault or whatever, you're already on the wrong track. A player will not care what engine you used or how you make the things in game happen as they happen. It is your responsibility to fix it or to find an alternative method of doing it.

That being said, I'm not here to discourage you, the opposite in fact. Keep going, keep improving. Take bad feedback on the chin and move on. Keep developing, even if it's just out of spite. Even if it's just out of "I'll show this **** that I can make a great game".

 

[Nereid]

I don't react badly per se, I just fear it beforehand and if it merely says "not my type"... then, not sure I can respond much... but, yeah, with regards to 'fun'... it's kind of my problem, as what I like my stories to be about isn't stereotypically fun, presumably... but I don't want to write them to keep to myself, so there's the conflict...

 

[Andar]

And there is another aspect that has been completely missing in the answers:

A "good" feedback will never help you improve your game, especially not if the person giving the feedback is giving a "nice lie" due to being close family and not wanting to hurt your feelings despite finding the game to be of bad quality.

The only way to improve is to be told "there is a bug" or "this dialogue reads very wooden".
Because you cannot bughunt without being told that there is a mistake in your work.


But that is also why there is a definition for "constructive critique" as opposed to "baseless ranting".

Yes, there are people who will try to downvote any product (usually because they have a competing but lower quality work of their own displayed on the same site, happens all the time with good stories on Royalroad for example).
So you need to be able to read all critique to see the difference between constructive ritique that tells you where you made mistakes and baseless ranting.

But you cannot improve if you refuse to read about your own mistakes.

 

[Alright]

Used to do some literary work back in the day.
Man, I craved and thirsted for any kind of criticism, even if it would say I suck. That's the bets way to get better, knowing where you're lacking most.
Don't worry about being worried. Folk are adaptive and the sooner you get through the stress, the better you'll feel in the end. Don't let it get to your head. Do some exercise if you can't get your mind at ease lol

 

[BubblegumPatty]

criticism always stings no matter how helpfully or kind it's phrased, so it's normal to be apprehensive about it. criticism is also not useful if you're not willing to consider it bc of xyz. Sometimes a major flaw can start even in the premise or basic concept, and it's best to catch that as early as possible for both for your sake and your players.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "not fun", but Fun doesn't mean your story or game has to be puppys, sparkles, and Bombastic explosions. Lots of games like the Last of Us, Walking dead, a ton of Horror, etc all cover very dark topics and can get kind of miserable story wise, but people keep trudging through it bc they either love the characters and or want to see how everything shakes out.

 

[eomereolsson]

I agree with the general sentiment of this thread that feedback is just needed to improve on your game.

This feedback does come in two categories.

Technical feedback will tell you where your software does not behave as it should. This is just a natural occurence when developing software. You implement something, you see if it works and iterate until it does what you want. Inevitably you will fail to consider some edge case which doesn't wirk as intended. It is just because humans are not perfect and do make mistakes. However if the same person that developed something later tests it in search for bugs, the likelihood is high that they will consider and test the same edge cases they did when implementing - and overlook the same. This is why in the software industry there ate the distinct jobs of developer and tester. Because you need another set of eyes.

The other category is a lot more tricky.
This is the this 'dialogue reads bad'/'this class is lame' category where it is a lot harder to impossible to objectively determine a correct result. Undoubtedly you also need feedback in this category to improve. However there are two major caveats to consider.
People are different. They like different things. But people tend to be more vocal over things they dislike. So if you get rid of a thing in your game because person A told you they don't like it, you may well get rid of a thing person B and person C liked but kept silent about.
People excel at telling whether they feel good about something. They are really bad at telling why though. Or at guessing how to fix it. So when receiving feedback focus on how the feedback giver felt. Try to determine for yourself what combination of factors might cause this feeling and how to best approach fixing it.

There is some research in getting good structured feedback. I suggest you take a couple of friends/family members through your game and don't just ask them for feedback in general. Come with specific questions prepared. Take the feedback you get this way to heart. And feel free to give feedback from random people online a lower priority.

 

[Tai_MT]

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

I find all criticism valuable and the trick to not getting upset or discouraged by it is just to learn how to "parse" that criticism.

Is someone just attacking you as a person for the sake of making you feel bad? If yes, you can safely ignore them. Though, you might want to try to figure out WHY they feel the desire to mess with you. Just in case you've slighted them in some way and they're not just jerks.

Is someone complaining about an aspect of your game?

Learn to parse what's wrong, why it's wrong, and try to accomodate if you can.

You will not be able to accomodate EVERYONE. You just won't. But, don't take up the attitude of "they just want me to change my vision", because most people don't. Most people wouldn't leave you feedback unless they were excited for what you were doing and then got disappointed by how badly executed it was.

For most games, even AAA games, you're only looking at MAYBE a 15-18% of the playerbase actually taking time to "leave feedback" at all. Of that feedback, you will either get praise which is useless to you (but, useful to other potential customers, so safe for you to ignore, and you probably should ignore) or you'll get people tearing you and your game down. People tearing your game down is always useful.

Never treat your players like "the enemy". Never get "stuck on a feature".

Look, I know how easy and tempting it is to say, "I worked on this for X years, we can't change it now! It's exactly the way I want it!". Yes, you can change it if you want to. Do you just not want to change it because it's a lot of work, or because of sunk-cost fallacy? If changing it would "change the intended experience", then don't change it. But, if the change does nothing except improve the user experience... then bite the bullet, toss your pride to the side, and get to work.

My game has always been "exactly how I wanted it". Yet, I've changed a ton of things in it. Removed things. Fixed things. Reworked things. Rewrote the entire story at least twice (maybe three times?). Rewrote characters and their personalities half a dozen times. Removed pointless systems of busywork. Redefined what I cared about in terms of "the intended experience".

I did all that based on "Feedback" I got. Based on people saying "the game sucks" and "this is boring". Or, even, based on critique supplied by people in these forums about the systems.

Your project is not an extension of your personality. Work hard not to treat it as such. Your game is not you. It never will be. If you treat it as sacred, unchangeable, and rigid... it will never succeed. And, you will look like an idiot alongside the failed project.

Sometimes, you have to decide between:
1. Do I want people to enjoy my game and get something important out of it?
Or
2. Do I want to make the game my way and who cares what people think of it?

Ever dev needs to decide. All visions must be compromised to some degree in order to be agreeable to a general audience, or even a specific audience. You aren't going to sell political views from one side of the aisle to the other very easily, if you manage it at all. Know your audience. Know what you're trying to peddle. Make that experience amazing for the customers you want.

You do that by accepting feedback and considering that "nothing is set in stone" that you have right now. Because it isn't. None of it is until you hit "publish" on the project and put it up for sale. It can all be changed up to that point.

But, you will need to decide "is my vision more important than what an audience thinks of it or is it more important for the audience to enjoy the experience than to defend my intended vision?"

 

[Nereid]

Feedback can be kind of 'useful' sometimes too, in other ways... I was recently getting one bad news after another irl, so much that I had to get drunk, but just before continuing on trying to desperately resolve some problems irl (which, as it happens, is way more difficult than technical troubleshooting...) - I decided, then, to check some new message I had, and it happened to be someone being positive specifically about what I mainly do with video games, ending up saying it seems to be a strength of mine, which sort of makes me feel less delusional about it... well, it didn't resolve my irl problems, but it sort of provided a tiny oasis in the midst of a hell...

 

[Danatoth]

I tend to believe that if you are fearing feedback, there is something in your game that you know you could do better, or that you know you cut corners or did something wrong. I firmly believe that if you actually believe you did your best in doing something, then feedback you get will be news to you.

For example, if I decided that in my game knew that the shadows looked bad, but didn't want to spend a few weeks going through and fixing them all, then when I got feedback I'd be fearful that they'd mention the shadows. However, if I knew the shadows in my game looked bad and spent the time fixing them, then received feedback I wouldn't be scared someone would point out the shadows, because if they did after I fixed them - then I'd know that I messed up doing it.

This is how I see it anyhow. The only things to fear are the things that you already know need to be improved, and are too scared to talk to yourself about and put in the work. You hope that nobody else will see those flaws so that you don't have to put in the work.

Put in the work in the areas you feel your game is the weakest in, and the criticism to come will only help you fix those areas.

 

[CineadH]

Throughout almost the entire process of making my game, I'm expecting either people to think it's gonna be amazing or absolutely dreadful. I think it can be hard not to take criticism personally sometimes, but feedback is essential, and I kind of not even see the point of doing anything creative if you will not end up getting feedback, wether good or bad.

Maybe it's not quite related, and probably wildly unrealistic, but I am sometimes worried that me showing up my game to the world would lead to some people harassing me online, because themes or characterisations in said game would displease them. This is stupid, obviously, but I sometimes think about it.

 

[Kes]

I tend to believe that if you are fearing feedback, there is something in your game that you know you could do better, or that you know you cut corners or did something wrong. I firmly believe that if you actually believe you did your best in doing something, then feedback you get will be news to you.

I think this is simply not true as an absolute statement. Some people fear feedback because of harsh criticism in the past; some fear it because they had an overprotective upbringing and so never learnt how to deal with negative feedback; some fear it because they have a slightly wobbley sense of self worth; some fear it because they've seen an internet mob crash down on someone; some fear it because their game is a bit like their baby, and when you send your baby into the world you both hope and fear. The list could go on, but I hope you get the point.

 

[Nereid]

@Danatoth it's not necessarily something fixable, though... might be e.g. all of one's writing, or its style, which is obviously not something to be fixed per se and whether it's liked is subjective, or in areas where one is weakest or getting assets from elsewhere due to being unable to make them from scratch... people these days seem to see these commercial games made by hundreds of people and assume that individuals not even partnered with one other can do something similar...

@Kes yeah, some people can be overly critical (while others seemingly use positive adjectives like candy... someone recently described mere screenshots I had as "gorgeous", which I wouldn't do myself at all... hadn't even started the game yet) - and negativity seems to stick more, although in the end it seems feedback is mostly more of the neutral/subjective opinion type.

 

[Bernkastelwitch]

To me, I don't fear criticism. What I don't like is the "bad" kind of criticism. AKA the ones telling you that you should "Give up" or say that you have no talent or worthless. And the worst part is people manage to disguise it as criticism and hide it there even if all it is done is to tear the person down.

There is a difference between criticism to help others improve and criticism designed to break someone.

So its only conflicted in the sense that I take actual genuine criticism but I don't listen to people who basically say "You have no talent. Give up" which is a lot more common than one would think.

 

[Tai_MT]

@Bernkastelwitch

I don't tend to agree with that. If you don't have the skills/brain/personality for the task... it is better you give up on it. Cut your losses and move along to something else. Unless, of course, you just really like the hobby of game making... but if you did, no amount of criticism would ever get you down, and you probably wouldn't care about criticism anyway, since the act of game making would be where you're deriving joy (for example, I love singing. I'm terrible at it. So, I don't do it in public, but I sing to my hearts content anywhere else. I will always sing, despite how awful it is. But, I'm doing it for me, and not for other people.).

If you are utterly incapable of improvement (and most people are for most things), then why live in a delusion of "but I can be better!"?

Is it beneficial to tell someone completely incapable of writing good music any sort of criticism to improving how to write it? Or, is that a waste of time? I'd consider it "a waste of time" because said person is simply unqualified to do the task, and they will never be qualified to do it.

If you are 3 foot 2, do we actively encourage you to play Basketball? Do we give you tips on how to better play Basketball? Or, do we force you to accept that you will NEVER be able to play Basketball against anyone except other 3 foot tall people in any meaningful way?

It is more kind to basically tell you that the only way you would bring anything of value to what it is you're doing, is by lowering the standards for you?

I would think this is pretty cruel. Unless all you really care about is the participation trophy. A sense of belonging to a group. But, then the question has to be asked:

Do you really belong to the group if the standards have to be lowered for you to be accepted? Or is it that you've deluded yourself because other people pity you?

I think the only "worthless" criticism that can be given to people are just things like death threats or personal hatred toward you. You can't really fix those things in a game. So... useless.

But, if someone tells you, "you have no talent", then that's actionable criticism. You're performing under par. That is, below average. It is also telling you that you lack the self-awareness to even be able to analyze yourself and your own work without bias. If someone tells you "you have no talent", they are telling you that you should've KNOWN what you made was not good before subjecting ANYONE ELSE to it. If they are telling you to give up... it's for the same reason.

What those mean is, "You should've easily spotted the problems and fixed them before an audience ever saw them. The fact that you didn't, means you probably aren't capable of ever doing this well." After all, if it never crossed your mind as a designer that it was poorly designed and you should improve the experience... Then you obviously aren't qualified and probably never will be. You never worried that what was out there wasn't good. Or, if you did, you released anyway.

For me, I'm always thankful when such people are in jobs that at least don't affect the lives of others. Because, if such people had to be responsible for work where lives could be on the line... Well, I don't even want to think of the consequences of "it's good enough" and "I didn't know that was a problem before the complaints rolled in".

 

[Nereid]

I love singing. I'm terrible at it. So, I don't do it in public

Why not... I specifically like syncing animation to the words, which is mostly why they're still uploaded... don't fantasize about a career there or anything (like I do when it comes to...) - but, occasionally, why not...

a waste of time? I'd consider it "a waste of time" because said person is simply unqualified to do the task, and they will never be qualified to do it.

I think it's also context... some years ago I did actually give up on LoL because after a thousand games somehow I could never even make it beyond bronze... this year, though, possibly through technical changes and it might be that Wild Rift isn't played as much... miraculously, just after fifty games, platinum... no idea how, but context, time...

If you are 3 foot 2, do we actively encourage you to play Basketball?

With this kind of thinking the wheelchair version would have never been... everything is relative, if they wanted they can all be short and have a short net... I mean, I'm tall and I don't play...

But, if someone tells you, "you have no talent", then that's actionable criticism.

Still not sure how... if I declare that I can't do art, then I'm supposed to just quit? Guess I can always learn very basic drawing, but then I'd be criticized even more, besides taking forever to make any progress... so, I borrow, and only focus on what I can do... but no, even my terrible drawing wouldn't kill anyone...

It's not like I am the optimistic type... but from my observations so far, those who are 'successful' aren't really because they are genuinely talented... only that they lucked out (talking creative outlets, here). People don't go 'viral' because they're talented... sometimes I'm absolutely amazed at the utter dross that becomes popular, but it is because they've used all-caps, or just counted thousands for some bizarre reason... it really isn't talent, currently...

 

[Tai_MT]

Why not... I specifically like syncing animation to the words, which is mostly why they're still uploaded... don't fantasize about a career there or anything (like I do when it comes to...) - but, occasionally, why not...

So I don't inflict the pain that is my voice on others. Trust me, you don't want that.

I think it's also context... some years ago I did actually give up on LoL because after a thousand games somehow I could never even make it beyond bronze... this year, though, possibly through technical changes and it might be that Wild Rift isn't played as much... miraculously, just after fifty games, platinum... no idea how, but context, time...

Probably a lot of variables in there too. Lots of game changes from my understanding. Rebalancing. Etcetera. Also, I've heard that "quality of the vast majority of players" has reduced as well, but I have no idea how true that actually is.

It may be a case that you were actually capable of improving, provided your mind developed enough. Or, it might just be a case of "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king". I don't play LoL, so I wouldn't be able to tell you.

Sometimes, growing up is all that is required for someone to get the correct mindset and personality to do the job well.

But, sometimes... nothing you do will change the fact that you can't do it.

With this kind of thinking the wheelchair version would have never been... everything is relative, if they wanted they can all be short and have a short net... I mean, I'm tall and I don't play...

Well, there is also the midget version as well. "Relative" is fine and all. But, if you had dreams of being in the NBA... ain't gonna happen. If you had dreams of fame and fortune by playing in the wheelchair version... probably not going to happen either. If your dreams were, however, just to play competitively... then the wheelchair and/or midget stuff is all you'll ever achieve. It's not on the same level, it's less popular, and generally requires far less skill/ability.

Sort of the difference between people who participate in a "local militia" and people who are Green Berets or Marines. Do those people who go out into the woods with their friends and play at being soldier garner the same respect as people who actually were in armed conflicts and given proper training and conditioning to do those things? Not really.

There's a marked difference between "I play only at my skill level and for fun" and "I am attempting to achieve things beyond my level". If you are incapable of moving beyond your current level, then that level is where you will stay. If that level is only "just under competence", then.... you run into issues.

Still not sure how... if I declare that I can't do art, then I'm supposed to just quit? Guess I can always learn very basic drawing, but then I'd be criticized even more, besides taking forever to make any progress... so, I borrow, and only focus on what I can do... but no, even my terrible drawing wouldn't kill anyone...

I explained how it's actionable. They are telling you that you are "below par". As in, you missed basic common sense stuff that comes with the territory. You are "under basic competence". If you can rise ABOVE that level, then do so. If you can't... Then you should probably quit.

But, typically, you really only see criticism of "you have no talent, and you should quit" when it comes to people who have done something so terribly that they REALLY have no excuse for not knowing it was bad and in which ways it was bad.

There are levels of mistakes, as well as kinds.

1. Malicious incompetence. Don't know how to do it, but do it anyway regardless of consequences. Or, falsely believe something that is easily provable to be wrong, out of stubbornness, pride, or stupidity.
2. General incompetence. Don't know how to do it, but might be able to learn it.
3. Beginner mistakes. Know the basics of how it works, but not really much beyond that.
4. Typical mistakes. Know a enough about the subject to work well with it, but still hit all the "common" pitfalls and "assumptions" on the subject.
5. Advanced mistakes. You know a lot about the subject, so every mistake is from the complexity of what it is you're doing and those mistakes are "things you probably couldn't have seen coming".
6. Expert mistakes. Nobody can tell you even what went wrong except yourself... or other people at your level. You very likely won't even receive criticism from anyone except those who know as much as you do.

It's not like I am the optimistic type... but from my observations so far, those who are 'successful' aren't really because they are genuinely talented... only that they lucked out (talking creative outlets, here). People don't go 'viral' because they're talented... sometimes I'm absolutely amazed at the utter dross that becomes popular, but it is because they've used all-caps, or just counted thousands for some bizarre reason... it really isn't talent, currently...

I see the same trends. But, I also notice that most people don't use criticism of "you have no talent" and "you should quit" without much merit.

It's more often, "this game is crap" as the universal criticism. Or, even "this music is crap" or "this thing is crap". Which... less actionable than "you have no talent", because now you have to sort of narrow down what particular part of the thing was upsetting, and you may not even be able to fix it. But, "you have no talent" and "you should give up" tell you that you've made some very rookie mistakes somewhere and didn't even know you made them, which means it's likely time to crack a book on the subject and compare what you did with what the experts in the field are doing to see where and how and why it went wrong. Because, if you can't figure out why something is or was designed the way it is, and how it manages to do that thing... you've got something to learn. So, you should learn. If you are incapable of learning that thing, because you're lazy, you lack the brain power, you lack the personality which grants you the drive to improve, etcetera... Then, they are words to tell you "just give up and do something else you're better at."