Does anyone have a conflicted response to feedback?

[Indinera]

I don't think they meant CHANGE it, they just meant find out WHY they think the way they do. But I can see that simple miscommunication. Is good.

It's kinda moot if you don't change it even if you (think you) figured out why.

 

[lianderson]

It's kinda moot if you don't change it even if you (think you) figured out why.

Not really, understanding why someone thinks a certain way can help in unpredictable ways. Ways that don't particularly pertain to the one at hand.

 

[Indinera]

Not really, understanding why someone thinks a certain way can help in unpredictable ways. Ways that don't particularly pertain to the one at hand.

True, in the sense that it could be specific to them. For instance an allergy to an ingredient that is part of the recipe.

 

[CineadH]

Let's say you put your product out in the world, one you poured a lot of care and hard work into, and one huge aspect of it (like per example the story in a story based game) get mostly negative feedback. Do you still want to continue? Does it not feel like you wasted your time?

 

[Ms Littlefish]

@CineadH It’s really going to depend on how specific that feedback is. If you’re getting mostly negative response, there probably is something that needs addressed but you’d absolutely have to get down to the root and determine what is and is not controllable in this situation by investigating the feedback further and even following up with some of the reviewers.

It can also be something as benign as distributing your game to the wrong audience and needing to change marketing strategies.

 

[Iron_Brew]

Let's say you put your product out in the world, one you poured a lot of care and hard work into, and one huge aspect of it (like per example the story in a story based game) get mostly negative feedback. Do you still want to continue? Does it not feel like you wasted your time?

It is always more beneficial to figure out why people are taking issue. If you get disheartened because people don't like an aspect of your game then you might need to step back a bit and think about why that is. It's not an attack on you if people don't like something that you've poured your heart and soul into, it's a comment on a part of that product.

A big part of making games is adapting to feetback and iterating - especially in blind spots that you think are OK, or even Good that people really dislike en masse. That's the beauty of the craft, no-one gets it right 100% of the time

You have three routes: Fix it, Ignore it, Give Up.

Give up should only really be a consideration if you can't do option A or B.

 

[Bernkastelwitch]

Do we make games for ourselves or for others? What's the point of making a game nobody will play? Or one that nobody will like? I wonder, sometimes. I think i want people to experience what I create.

For me, I have a game with a story and experience I want to show off and tell. And I put in gameplay from games I grew up on or ones I love, mainly games like Suikoden or Trails. And to me that should be enough.

I do know people say I should 100% gut my games plot because "It's too different" or "RPG Maker players won't like it" even if the plot is what you would see in an RPG. But I always assume it is people who never played those games or at least a couple of cases, the people critiquing it mentioned they don't play actual RPGs in RPG Maker and avoid them. I do read what they say but they aren't an audience for me.

I am willing to compromise to get others to look at it. The only issue is if it becomes completely unrecognizable other than the games title or one or two characters having similar names. That kind of meddling is extreme but apparently it happens.

That is what is worrying. Yes it is extreme but it has happened to others before where their dream project is completely unrecognizable and barely what they wanted to share, if at all. Something akin to making a serious Fantasy story turn into a goofy spaghetti Western romcom for an example.

 

[Tai_MT]

@Indinera
Yeah, I'm not saying you change it. I'm saying you should just try to figure out why that person didn't like it. Could be important. You never know unless you find out.

@Ms Littlefish
Could be the grilled cheese was burned. Could be some other issue. Maybe you weren't cooking that night and your replacement mucked it all up.

Or, their bad experience with the grilled cheese may have nothing to do with the grilled cheese itself, and the sandwich was bad for some other reason. You just never know.

I can't count the amount of times someone has told me "combat system is bad" and it turned out it had nothing to do with how the combat system actually worked... but how it FELT. A few tweaks later... and golden again.

 

[BubblegumPatty]

For me, I have a game with a story and experience I want to show off and tell. And I put in gameplay from games I grew up on or ones I love, mainly games like Suikoden or Trails. And to me that should be enough.

I do know people say I should 100% gut my games plot because "It's too different" or "RPG Maker players won't like it" even if the plot is what you would see in an RPG. But I always assume it is people who never played those games or at least a couple of cases, the people critiquing it mentioned they don't play actual RPGs in RPG Maker and avoid them. I do read what they say but they aren't an audience for me.

I am willing to compromise to get others to look at it. The only issue is if it becomes completely unrecognizable other than the games title or one or two characters having similar names. That kind of meddling is extreme but apparently it happens.

That is what is worrying. Yes it is extreme but it has happened to others before where their dream project is completely unrecognizable and barely what they wanted to share, if at all. Something akin to making a serious Fantasy story turn into a goofy spaghetti Western romcom for an example.

Well, in that case it would be time to Press them on further feedback, and give specifics. How is it different? Why won't RPG maker players like it? What are their expectations for a RPG maker players tastes vs mainstream rpgs? What do they expect from an RPG maker game in general?
Since it's not the audience you're targeting it's not a big deal if they don't like it, but it doesn't hurt to actually pinpoint why they're saying what they're saying and going form there.

I have not heard of many stories like that (at least none I can remember). But I do know if your final draft is the exact same as your first one... than nothing's changed, and thus nothings improved.
Also, to be fair, The fact that something is someone's dream doesn't necessarily make it good by virtue of it being their dream. Sometimes an original idea or concept is genuinely bad.

 

[TheAM-Dol]

I see the conversation has moved past this point now, but I wanted to briefly circle back to the point about success being randomness. I know this is unintentional on the OP's part, so I'm not chastising the OP for this statement, but just want to make clear it's really reductive on people's hard work.

Luck plays a part of it, but the way I see it is "Right place, right time". Often people are working hard to maximize their "Right time, right place". And your hard work on maximizing "right time, right place" is additive - that is, "right time, right place" is for your life, not per project. For example, you worked hard and in the end found 100 people who are now interested in your work. Well, in the scheme of things, that's nothing. But you plod along with your next endeavor, working hard to maximize that "right time, right place" and your work alone has garnered you only another 100 followers...but wait, now that's 200 followers, and wait, now some of your followers are sharing your work and you got another 50 out of it. Eventually this growth is going to build out a network that that one "right time, right place" event hits: getting noticed by a wealthy investor, attracting the attention of a publisher, or simply the internet doing it's thing and just sending your game to the moon. Along that way you have other smaller hits of success; new partnerships that help your growth, new friendships that inspire, so many other small things that all add up to hitting The Big "right time, right place", but to get there you just got to work hard to maximize your "right time, right place". All this hardwork adds up to your success, and without it, that random stroke of luck has such a low percentage of hitting that you would find more success playing the lottery. Success is rarely "just dumb luck", it was years of toiling to maximize their "right place, right time".

Edit:
Clarified some language. I also want to add that when I talk about working hard, I pretty much mean in every aspect of life, and not working hard on just your product: networking with people, working on improving yourself, working on skills, working on social media presence, etc.

 

[Gensun]

I feel as if I don't have conflicted reactions to feedback. Whatever things players tell me don't reflect on my person, but reflects on my current abilities which are subject to change.

Though I might sound like I react poorly because I might bombard feedback with follow up questions especially if I don't understand the complaint

 

[C64_Mat]

I don't tend to agree with that. If you don't have the skills/brain/personality for the task... it is better you give up on it.

Awful advice. I hope you don't have children.

 

[Indinera]

Awful advice. I hope you don't have children.

The thing is, it's not "you do have the skill" or "you don't have the skill". It's a spectrum.

AND even more so with games and game making, where countless things are just subjective and a matter of personal taste.

My take is that you don't have to compromise your vision and cater to the bigger number, as long as you're fine with the results you're getting.

If everybody would always want to cater to the bigger number, we would never get anything original, personal and/or different (not just in games).

For instance, do you think prog-rock bands are all that interested reaching the bigger number of people? No, they do their own thing, and if they generate enough money to make a living out of it, they're happy with just doing their thing for their entire career.
I think this mindset applies very well to INDIE gaming ventures.

 

[TheoAllen]

As someone who does a lot of creative work, from music, drawing, making games, and writing a story, comments and criticism can really change how you feel about your work. Even if you do it for fun or even when someone said a carefully constructive criticism. Sometimes I feel like "Yeah, this sucks. This goes to the trashbin".

Someone could lose their hobby and/or passion over that. Be careful when you said that they should give up. It is only valid under professionalism when they constantly under-deliver because it might affect the whole company. But randomly telling someone to give up when you're really not affected by it is the worst unsolicited "advice", as if unsolicited advice is already not bad enough.

On the other side, if you get that (a lot), it might be just because you're trying to cater to the wrong demographic. So, try a different one. Some people might not appreciate what you do. But some other people would.

 

[Tai_MT]

Awful advice. I hope you don't have children.

I dunno man... I think it's probably the most useful advice even children would receive.

Or would you rather teach them to waste time, money, and effort on something that will never pay off?

I think it's more useful to tell your children, "this is what it takes to accomplish what you want. If you can't deliver, then you should give up, because you're just wasting your own time, your own money, your own effort, for nothing more than heartache and a dream that won't come true".

It's less useful to play into people's delusions and to build them up when it isn't deserved. Doing that breeds unwarrented expectations and often leads to things like long-term depression.

EDIT:

After all, how many people do we now have with massive amounts of college loan debt who were "chasing their dreams"? Trying to get jobs that were already highly oversaturated with employees.

If you want to do the thing because you enjoy the thing, then do the thing. Ignore criticism because you enjoy the thing.

If you're looking to do the thing for fame, fortune, or any other reason...

It's better to teach "if you don't got what it takes, you're better served learning the lesson of 'cutting your losses' and then moving on."

Or, do you always go "all in" on a 3, a 7, a King, an Ace, and a 5 in Poker? Gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and when to run.

Moderation is what is important. If you don't teach your children valuable lessons about when and where platitudes end, then all you're doing is setting them up for failure.

 

[Trihan]

I dunno man... I think it's probably the most useful advice even children would receive.

Or would you rather teach them to waste time, money, and effort on something that will never pay off?

I think it's more useful to tell your children, "this is what it takes to accomplish what you want. If you can't deliver, then you should give up, because you're just wasting your own time, your own money, your own effort, for nothing more than heartache and a dream that won't come true".

It's less useful to play into people's delusions and to build them up when it isn't deserved. Doing that breeds unwarrented expectations and often leads to things like long-term depression.

EDIT:

After all, how many people do we now have with massive amounts of college loan debt who were "chasing their dreams"? Trying to get jobs that were already highly oversaturated with employees.

If you want to do the thing because you enjoy the thing, then do the thing. Ignore criticism because you enjoy the thing.

If you're looking to do the thing for fame, fortune, or any other reason...

It's better to teach "if you don't got what it takes, you're better served learning the lesson of 'cutting your losses' and then moving on."

Or, do you always go "all in" on a 3, a 7, a King, an Ace, and a 5 in Poker? Gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and when to run.

Moderation is what is important. If you don't teach your children valuable lessons about when and where platitudes end, then all you're doing is setting them up for failure.

I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but it's important to keep in mind that just because someone tells someone else they don't have what it takes to do X, it doesn't mean *they actually don't*.

Look at Lindsey Stirling: she had been told her entire life that her skills were unmarketable, that her ambition of combining dancing with violing would never fill theatres...heck, even Sharon Osbourne told her that. Look at her now, you think she'd be where she is if she'd listened to any of the people telling her she couldn't do it?

 

[Ms Littlefish]

Kids don't really think about time and money, though. Not when they're super young at least. Kids think about fun and reward. If your kid is growing frustrated and unmotivated, then steer them toward another activity.

Kids obviously turn into adults so they absolutely do need to be guided toward something they can make a career from later, but if they've found something fun and rewarding along the way...it's OK to do something just because it makes you feel good and enjoy your time. Adults could use that lesson sometimes too. Smaller scales of success are also valid and another lesson many adults could use. There are plenty of authors and gig musicians that live suitably but are not mega stars.

I really love your point by the way @Indinera

I play string instruments and saxophones. Wanna guess what I played in jazz? Not the saxophones. Wanna know what I won more awards in jazz doing? ...the string instruments. I found a niche category in our jazz show circuits and did pretty well for myself. The saxophone category. Well? Pretty crowded.

 

[Indinera]

Or would you rather teach them to waste time, money, and effort on something that will never pay off?

How the hell do you know in advance whether it will pay off or not?
If you mean on average, who cares? Some kids (and people) are different. If you feel you are different (and this feeling should come from inside of you), at least give yourself a fair shot at success, and don't give up at the first few hurdles, and ESPECIALLY NOT because a random someone said you were bad (worst reason ever to give up).
I, too, heard from my parents it would not pay off because of this and that and the other - they were wrong. A lot of people who eventually succeeded were told they would fail - they all have in common that they (thankfully) didn't listen.

it's important to keep in mind that just because someone tells someone else they don't have what it takes to do X, it doesn't mean *they actually don't*.

Very, very true. Thanks for a bit of common sense here.

 

[Tai_MT]

@Trihan That's not really my point. We're sort of comparing apples to oranges here. What they might have been telling her is that "I don't think your actual skills can be marketed to draw an audience to make enough money". In this case, they were wrong.

Happens all the time.

But, what if they told her that she just couldn't do it because she just lacked the skill and drive to be able to do it in the first place? Might be appropriate to just tell her to give up at that point.

The problem is that people who make their living by having knowledge of what the public wants aren't "wrong" all that often, much as we complain that they are. EA, for all the problems it has, and all the backlash they get... still rich as crap... still producing crap games...

If you happen to find or create your niche to get your audience and your fame and your fortune, then that is an amazing and fantastic thing. But, it takes drive and work to get there. It takes the ability to create that niche, to get there.

To such people who have such things, I doubt they went, "people said I have no talent, they are mean people and I'm not going to listen to them". I'd wager they went, "people said I have no talent, I'm going to prove them wrong by being AMAZING" and then put in hard work to get there.

If someone is capable of improvement, they should absolutely improve. But, that requires they have the drive and ability to hear "You suck, please quit for the benefit of everyone else" and then go, "I'm going to prove you wrong" and actively improve on everything. People who probably aren't capable of improvement and working hard in the first place tend to hear the same phrase and immediately turn it into an excuse to never improve (they're mean! They have no idea what they're talking about! I am, too, good at this! On, and on, and on.).

@Indinera

Depends on "how much in advance" we're talking. It, personally, infuriates me when people tell their children, "you can be anything you want to be!", because it is such a lie and such a missed opportunity to instill values in them as well as teach them important life lessons.

If your child decides "I want to be an astronaut", and chases that dream despite:
1. Being horrible at math.
2. Doesn't like being alone.
3. Doesn't like and can't handle rides with a lot of G Force.
4. Can't make quick decisions.
5. Routinely does poorly in school in other subjects.
6. Doesn't take physical fitness seriously.
7. Doesn't like working with machines or computers.

Do you continue to encourage them to become an astronaut?

I mean, I wouldn't. I'd be like, "you don't have what it takes, you will likely NEVER have what it takes, so set your sights on something else".

Likewise, I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that "everyone who is told they can't measure up, eventually does!". It's quite the opposite, in fact. The amount of people who manage to prove everyone wrong and actually eventually measure up and make their dreams reality is depressingly low. Like, "play the lottery" levels of low.

But, it all depends on what you mean when you say "success". Because, parents will measure that differently than their children.

Namely, your parents want you to grow up, have a family, find happiness, and be financially set. They don't want you to struggle with money, to forgo the happiness you might have had by chasing heartache, and ultimately fail to do anything with your life that would even make you self-sufficient.

I'm also not entirely sure where you're getting this idea of "if a random person on the internet tells you to give up, you should give up". I'm pretty sure I haven't said that once. I'm pretty sure I've been saying, "You should take such things seriously as it typically means these are the mistakes you're making, and if you're incapable of fixing those mistakes and learning, then maybe you should give up".

As in, if you're unwilling or unable to fix your mistakes, learn from errors, and take criticism well...

Then you're probably best served by getting out. Unless, of course, you just like the hobby regardless of your skill level in it... but then you probably don't care about criticism anyway if you're just "doing the thing you love".

 

[Bernkastelwitch]

Well, in that case it would be time to Press them on further feedback, and give specifics. How is it different? Why won't RPG maker players like it? What are their expectations for a RPG maker players tastes vs mainstream rpgs? What do they expect from an RPG maker game in general?
Since it's not the audience you're targeting it's not a big deal if they don't like it, but it doesn't hurt to actually pinpoint why they're saying what they're saying and going form there.

I have not heard of many stories like that (at least none I can remember). But I do know if your final draft is the exact same as your first one... than nothing's changed, and thus nothings improved.
Also, to be fair, The fact that something is someone's dream doesn't necessarily make it good by virtue of it being their dream. Sometimes an original idea or concept is genuinely bad.

I do know some people I get critiques on don't bring up specifics. It took until me showing stuff like the intro here which I got specific feedback on. And it is difficult to get specific feedback at times because some people purposely try to be as vague as possible. At least what I notice.