Does anyone have a conflicted response to feedback?

[BubblegumPatty]

People are often not very not good at pinpointing why they like/dislike/think something without needling, so I don't think it's purposeful but I know it's no less frustrating. (Unless they realized they're completely wrong and are being obtuse to save face I guess? in that case anything they say wouldn't be too helpful anyways :/)

Someone who says a game feels "Clunky" may need a bit of guidance to get at that they mean "There are too many confusing menus to navigate" or "The controls are overly complex and difficult to remember", or "The inputs are delayed and feels like I'm moving underwater." or "The physics of how I jump/interact with the world feel very off from reality/what I expect from similar games, and it's throwing me off my groove", etc. It's why a lot of surveys often have a millions questions followed by questions asking why you answered xyz.

 

[Tai_MT]

@Bernkastelwitch
Depends on who and what you ask, unfortunately. Part of the reason I try to tell people "you gotta be able to parse what you get". Because, the average game player lacks the knowledge to tell you what is wrong in the first place, and they're primarily going on "feeling" of the thing. As in, X frustrated them. But, they don't know why it frustrated them. X is stupid, but they couldn't tell you why it's stupid (don't believe me? Cruise bad reviews on movies, books, and games all over the internet. The vast majority of which are basically going to be "this is bad", with only a few people actually able to express why).

If you want highly specific feedback, then you need to have people who have knowledge of game design and player psychology critique your product. Which is... as you've experienced... people here on the forums. Even then... depending on who you ask, it still may not be that specific because they just don't have the knowledge required to give you "quick and immediately diagnosis of problems".

I am curious about your statement about "people purposely try to be as vague as possible". I haven't really seen that outside of like... friends or family who don't want to hurt your feelings, so they just say, "I liked X, that part was good" or "I didn't like that part, it could have been done better". I'd be curious what that looks like. Might be interesting to try to figure out what's going on.

 

[Iron_Brew]

If your child decides "I want to be an astronaut", and chases that dream despite:
1. Being horrible at math.
2. Doesn't like being alone.
3. Doesn't like and can't handle rides with a lot of G Force.
4. Can't make quick decisions.
5. Routinely does poorly in school in other subjects.
6. Doesn't take physical fitness seriously.
7. Doesn't like working with machines or computers.

Do you continue to encourage them to become an astronaut?

I mean, I wouldn't. I'd be like, "you don't have what it takes, you will likely NEVER have what it takes, so set your sights on something else".

Likewise, I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that "everyone who is told they can't measure up, eventually does!". It's quite the opposite, in fact. The amount of people who manage to prove everyone wrong and actually eventually measure up and make their dreams reality is depressingly low. Like, "play the lottery" levels of low.

Jesus Christ, imagine telling your kids to give up rather than encouraging them to improve themselves

 

[CleanWater]

Any feedback is valid on my humble opinion.

Good feedback shows you what you are doing right, bad feedback shows you what you are doing wrong (or maybe the right thing if the person is envious of your work).

 

[Indinera]

Jesus Christ, imagine telling your kids to give up rather than encouraging them to improve themselves

I had parents who weren't very supportive, so if I had a child, I wouldn't want to go down the same road.
I imagine though that it's not easy to find the right balance.

 

[Ms Littlefish]

It must be a tough challenge to balance.

Being an adult means you have a more nuanced and experienced view of how the world works but an adult can take "I want to be an astronaut," as a clue to help a child gain skills and aptitude. Space-obsessed kids are not really aware of all the other roles in aerospace so they usually just say, "astronaut." There are ways for parents to support a kid's passion without completely deluding or curb stomping their expectations.

There's also a huge difference between say... a 16-year-old who never passes math tests and a 6-year-old who just learned subtraction exists.

 

[Indinera]

There's also a huge difference between say... a 16-year-old who never passes math tests and a 6-year-old who just learned subtraction exists.

This.
Children can have "dreams" that evolve and even completely change with time.
What matters is what they truly want when they become adults. This is when parents should be wary of being completely unsupportive, even if their child's aspirations do not fit theirs. It's easy to always encourage what looks like the "safer" road, but it might also lead to a miserable life (even if the "safe" goal has been attained).

 

[Tai_MT]

Jesus Christ, imagine telling your kids to give up rather than encouraging them to improve themselves

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

You can encourage people to change and grow and improve and do more work all day long... But, most people just won't. These forums are proof of that.

I, personally, think it's better to instill in a child the drive to accomplish their goals, rather than "support their dreams". As in, "it's going to be difficult, so you need to do everything possible to achieve it. You don't get to sit around on your laurels if you want to do this."

I think it's important for parents to CREATE OPPORTUNITIES, but not to encourage bad behaviors in service of achieving a dream.

If your kid says, "I want to be a game dev", your responsibility should be, "Okay, let's get you some classes so you can learn how to do that". It shouldn't be, "I will cheer for you, even while you make bad decisions!"

As in: "This is what you need to do to succeed. If you don't have the drive and ambition to do it, then you should probably quit."

Proper support isn't blanket approval and encouragement. Proper support is telling you that you're screwing up, holding you to a standard, and telling you to quit if you just aren't going to try that hard to accomplish your dream.

If you want to be a game dev, then you fight, you claw, you scratch, you bite, you tear, you slash, you bash, you punch, you kick, you scream, you bleed, you sweat, for every single inch of progress. You accept the criticism. You take your punches on the chin and keep on coming. If you want it, that's what you do. That's what you have to do.

You don't whine and cower in a corner that "it's too hard" or "people say mean things about my work". No, you take that stuff, you learn, you build, you do better, you fight and scratch and claw harder.

If you don't have it in you to do that for your own dream... then why do you even HAVE your dream to begin with?

EDIT: Or, more precisely:

If you aren't going to fight with everything you have to accomplish your dream, and do any and everything it takes to achieve it... it is no longer a dream. It is a "passing fancy". And what parent, in their right mind, would encourage their child to restructure their lives and possibly live a very risky life just for a "passing fancy"?

 

[CineadH]

Having a "dream" is such a vague thing anyway. If my dream is to be an artist, when will I "accomplish" it? When I get payed for what I do? Well, why do I need to make money off of something I enjoy doing?
Or is it when I have enough skills to draw what I actually want to draw?

 

[Tai_MT]

Presumably, your "dream" is something you want to accomplish as a facet of who you are and your intense desires to have that experience. What that entails is going to be "up for grabs" as everyone has different "levels" of what they have as a dream.

It'll be different for everyone. Might even change with age as your values and experiences solidify through your life.

But, if you aren't really actively pursuing your dream, then it's not really a dream. It's more of a "passing fancy" for you. It's something you wish would happen "in the moment" because it "seems cool", and isn't an ultimate goal of yours in the long term.

Dreams can be practical or they can be ridiculous. They're not all created equal. They can be realistic or pure fantasy.

I think the interesting question that probably should be asked is this:

How many people in these forums will give up on game design and never release a game, despite it being something they had initially wanted? Even if nobody ever tells them to give up? Even if people actively encourage them to not give up?

EDIT: And a follow-up question: What if some of the people in this very thread who have been fighting so hard for "you shouldn't tell people they aren't capable of doing the thing" gave up on doing the thing, because they lost interest, lost ambition, lost drive, or whatever else? Does that then make them a clockwork hypocrite? Does it render their statements retroactively invalid? Does it make the statement of "some people don't have what it takes to make a game, and should quit" correct? In hindsight?

It's a delightful rabbit hole.

 

[CineadH]

I interpret "not having what it takes" as a form of "no pain no gain" mentality, maybe even a "competition" one. That's probably just me, but I'm not a big fan.

There are many reasons to give up on a "dream", priorities change in life. I don't think it invalidates what the person said at this given time.
Like, if I lost my eyesight, I'd have to give up on my dream to be an artist.

 

[Bernkastelwitch]

I have a dream of being a game designer and a dream of developing my dream game I had for a long time. And I have been doing both here. Probably won't be successful until said game is done but still. I always have people tell me to "give up" constantly but I ain't giving up unless something real bad happens.

I think it's okay to not give up on a dream unless you physically can't do it or lost all ambition. It is why I do my best to separate good criticisms(I.E: Pointing out pros and cons of a plot or gameplay, what can be done, what is good, what should be looked into, etc etc) from ones that are useless(I.E: Death threats, people trolling to put you down, or someone who ain't into RPGs trying to review an RPG). That is something to look into.

 

[atoms]

Not a parent myself but on the topic of children and dreams. As mentioned before, it does depend on the child's age, what it is and what their skill on it is or likely could become.

I wouldn't advise crushing a child's dream at all but if they're a lot older and it doesn't look like it would work, then a gentle honest conversation about it, with some other ideas and directions, probably would be the right move. But I can't say for certain, so...

About feedback. I'm not really fully sure myself but can try to share what I think sounds good. When you work really hard on something and put it out there, you have to be aware that people may like it or may not. On top of this, we have subjective opinions. Sure, if a lot of people are saying the same thing, then it's likely something could be improved there.

But yeah, while a lot of negative feedback can easily really feel discouraging at the time, I don't advise deciding whether you continue your hobby or not based on it. (Or fear it for any other reason). I think feedback is really useful for improving but if you can only take bits at a time, then that's fine.

Some people will probably give an honest opinion of their view of your game but that shouldn't decide if you make another game or not. (Or fear feedback for other reasons. Or keep fearing feedback for any reason). I wouldn't really fear it but that could be natural.

And that's assuming people will give negative feedback or only negative feedback. I think practice and experience make your skills better. Most first RPG Maker games, if you put them out there, are likely going to have at least some negative constructive criticism. But there probably is something positive there too, about the game, already. Hopefully. If not, skill makes games better so just continue your hobby, as long as you enjoy it.

It's good to take the advice given but just work at it at your own pace.

Positive feedback is really nice as well, but I'd say do the game you want to do.

But yeah, as mentioned earlier in the discussion, there are people out there who might say negative nonsense to you or just be a bit mean, etc. My advice, on comments like those, is to try to judge if there is anything useful in the comment and ignore the rest.

But don't assume all negative comments are trying to put you down because they might just be explaining their experience with the game or trying to help you improve.

Lastly, you don't have to make changes to the game or future games based on the feedback. If you feel it's overwhelming or too much, that's okay. I mean I would still try to improve something and see how much you can try to improve, but as a hobby, I'd advise you to keep enjoying your hobby no matter what. If you want to put your games out there, good or bad, you are allowed to. But some players will play and give an opinion based on their experience. So you have to be aware that yes that will happen but you can keep enjoying your hobby and putting games out there, regardless of what you do next. Ignoring feedback outright though, I don't advise.

Games having a lot of negative experiences in them isn't fun to play, so to balance out what I said, I'd still try to improve some things each time and see if you can do maybe more after that. But it really is up to you what you do, etc.

I would find it annoying if I gave constructive feedback and the person didn't care at all and just continued doing it. More so if a lot of people gave the same suggestions. I guess it would depend on what it is. I mean if you're maps are always large and empty I'd try improving that. If your battles are always spamming the same skills, I'll try improving that. I wouldn't advise or force it for your first game or maybe even a second game, but I'd try to work on it a little bit at a time.

I don't know everything about this subjective though, like I said I'm not fully sure, but I hope that still helps a little or a lot!

Edit: The vagueness is why, I think, it can be like a rabbit hole. As it's harder to pinpoint one thing. I.e. What type of fear? Why do you fear? Is this your first game? Where do you plan to share it? Are we talking about people being honest? Mean? Vague in their responses? Etc. But I don't think it matters here, as it's still an interesting discussion.

 

[Nereid]

So... it happened again, and this time it's taking me the longest to just look, because I had come into conflict with the one who left feedback, but as it's a different name I use it's not like they probably even connected the two... and yet I can't bring myself to look, even though I got prior positive feedback about the same game from others... not sure why I care at all about any reactions, as it's not like I write games with an audience in mind...

 

[Tai_MT]

I would wager that it's two things:

1. The fear of personal rejection. A lot of artists need to combat this fear at some point in their lives and career. For them, "creation" is deeply personal and an extension of themselves. Maybe an extension of their ideas, their thoughts, their ideals, or even their soul. Their product is a "part of them". In sharing that product with an audience, they are, in essence, sharing themselves. So, rejection of the product is also rejection of the artist.

2. The tendency to cling to "the negative", rather than the positive. People will typically forget the 4,000 compliments they receive, but they will remember every single scathing thing said to them by people, even years later. This way of thinking tends to cloud the way people act/react/think. It's why people respond better to negativity. Negative posts create longer threads. Negative news gets more views. On and on. We seek the negative, unless it is about ourselves, then we internalize it and focus very hard on it. Did 4,000 people call you "very handsome"? Makes you feel great. Did 3 people tell you in excruciating detail how ugly they thought you were? You're going to remember those 3 people and those 3 people are going to make you doubt how correct the other 4,000 were. Were the 4,000 people just "being nice" to you? Just engaging in "social politeness"? They might have been, after all, there were 3 people who didn't feel the need to "sugarcoat" anything and instead tapped into your insecurity. 3 People tapped into what you secretly fear or believe about yourself. So, the 3 call into question the legitimacy of the 4,000, don't they?

I can't say for certain what your own personal issue with negative feedback is, but I'd wager it's a combination of these two things. Two questions that roll around in your head when you get it, and you don't know what to do about it.

"Doesn't this mean the person doesn't like this part of who I am?"
and
"What if this person is right about these negative aspects of me?"

To me, it sounds like an inner conflict you'll need to deal with at some point. You'll have to find a way to rationalize the way you feel, understand why you feel that way, and through doing that, be able to separate it from yourself so that it no longer produces the fear you feel.

This is typically called "parsing criticism". Which is just the act of figuring out why you get the criticism you do, if there's anything you can do to fix it, and deciding if you want to fix it once you know you can.

It isn't an easy to skill to learn. Most people take criticism very personally. That game you like that someone else hates? Why, that's a personal attack on you, since they're attacking a thing you like and that thing you like was deeply personal to your identity.

But, the skill requires you separate yourself out from that way of thinking. It requires you "not give a crap" to an extent. "Yeah, you didn't like it and those are fair criticisms, but I enjoyed my time with it, and that's what matters to me."

With gamedev, it's similar. "4,000 other people liked it. You didn't, so I'll look to see why you might not have, and if there's anything I can and am willing to change for you. But, if not, oh well. 4,000 other people liked it."

Trust me, it is never pleasant to read critique about you, your projects, or even the things you like. I get a ton of criticism all the time, so I've gotten very good at parsing it. Sometimes, it takes me a while to come around to accepting it. Sometimes, I know it's just complete nonsense and comes from a place of other people just making things up so as to bolster their own ego. But, you still need to read it. You still need to engage with it. Even if you do not actually engage with the people who gave you the criticism. It may be difficult to find a way to deal with it, but that's part of interacting with people in the first place.

After all, if you are unable to take criticism, the public space becomes a very anxiety inducing place to exist in. Living in anxiety is not fun, so putting forth the effort to parse that criticism can be one of the most important parts of "becoming mature" that any human can do in their lifetimes.

 

[Gallas]

Feedback is bunk. It is always a player telling you their 'opinion' on something. First off, the player cannot articulate what is right and wrong. Second, the player is going to hold back and be 'nice'. Asking for player feedback is like asking a girl if you're handsome. They're just going to be 'nice'.

A MUCH BETTER way is to watch the player interact with the game. I tell potential feedback testers "No!" because I require video playback. This way they can't lie to me. Players may not be able to articulate what they say or mean, but their actions speak the truth.

For example, if a player says he doesn't like 'this part' because 'it is boring', that's not helpful. However, the VIDEO shows the player running around in circles because there was no clear indicator of where he should go. THAT was the source of the frustration. I don't listen to what the player SAYS, I watch what the player DOES. That is my feedback!

I don't have any anxiety about this 'feedback' because it is all data to be analyzed.

Where would you rather be?

Someone who says they love your game but doesn't buy it...?

Or someone who says they hate your game but keeps buying it over and over...?

I look at actions, not the pretty words. Ironically, the more 'negative feedback' you get, it is because they are playing it more which means this is a net positive! The more invested people are, the more feedback they will give. The more sharp the negative feedback, the more they actually like what they play and want to see it improve. It's the milquetoast stuff you need to completely ignore. Frothing passion, be it hatred or love, is what you want your game to invoke.

 

[pawsplay]

Everyone loves feedback. Especially feedback that provides a harrowing mirror of our deepest insecurities, peeling back the layer of security we have in our sense of mastery. Everyone wants to hear that something close to their heart, in which they have invested so many hard hours they will never get back, is imperfect, maybe even bad. Something people always enjoy is un-entangling people's biases from things they say and do that are actually verifiable and useful. One thing you can do is sit around and try to divine, through guessing or psychic might, how representative the feedback you've gotten is of everyone who participated... or whether the audience you have is the audience you want.

Good times.

 

[TRIDIUM]

As a playtester meself, I can attest to that.

 

[Iron_Brew]

Feedback is bunk. It is always a player telling you their 'opinion' on something. First off, the player cannot articulate what is right and wrong. Second, the player is going to hold back and be 'nice'. Asking for player feedback is like asking a girl if you're handsome. They're just going to be 'nice'.

A MUCH BETTER way is to watch the player interact with the game. I tell potential feedback testers "No!" because I require video playback. This way they can't lie to me. Players may not be able to articulate what they say or mean, but their actions speak the truth.

For example, if a player says he doesn't like 'this part' because 'it is boring', that's not helpful. However, the VIDEO shows the player running around in circles because there was no clear indicator of where he should go. THAT was the source of the frustration. I don't listen to what the player SAYS, I watch what the player DOES. That is my feedback!

I don't have any anxiety about this 'feedback' because it is all data to be analyzed.

Where would you rather be?

Someone who says they love your game but doesn't buy it...?

Or someone who says they hate your game but keeps buying it over and over...?

I look at actions, not the pretty words. Ironically, the more 'negative feedback' you get, it is because they are playing it more which means this is a net positive! The more invested people are, the more feedback they will give. The more sharp the negative feedback, the more they actually like what they play and want to see it improve. It's the milquetoast stuff you need to completely ignore. Frothing passion, be it hatred or love, is what you want your game to invoke.

This is completely wild.

I don't know what kind of people you're interacting with to have this little faith in the feedback provided by testers, but declaring that feedback is "bunk" and saying you can only rely on actions and first hand video of gameplay is provably, demonstrably inaccurate.

There area bunch of issues which could lead to you not getting truthful, or actionable feedback; but there's also ways to mitigate this. Questions which garner qualitative data, excluding long-form answers, or simply broadening your player base can do that. Seeking out different testers in specifically-curated pools of testers with track records of providing decent feedback.

I really don't think you can just write off all feedback as useless, or simple opinion.

That attitude is how you prevent yourself from improvement. Shutting out feedback is a baffling, move, no matter who it's from.

Feedback is ALWAYS useful, no matter how brutal. Some of the moments and experiences which have catalysed my development have been the hardest to live through and hear. "This is garbage" is just as useful to a decent developer as "I didn't enjoy X feature" - because if you're smart you ask follow-up questions and drill into the feedback you receive to find what is actionable.

Anyway, TL;DR - your post had some good points. Primary sources and observing play is always going to be useful, but regarding feedback as "bunk" is - to be completely frank - ridiculous.

 

[Gallas]

So far, I've refused to give out my game to those who will not provide gameplay footage. To those who cried about it, why would they cry? Player observation is far superior than the player's own interpretation. Player feedback is based on the fallacy that players understand why they are doing things and can accurately articulate them. They rarely can. It's not reliable. Hence, I call it bunk.

True Story: When Nintendo was doing market tests for the NES in the United States in the mid 1980s, the feedback was all negative. Kids said the games were terrible. NOA President spent all this money on market research, and he got all these terrible results! But he noticed the kids were still going to the arcades. So despite the negative feedback, he launched the console and all was history.

It's become modus operandi at Nintendo since then. They'll stick a controller in your hand and watch what you do (and ignore what you say!). When Zelda: Breath of the Wild was being developed, development staff spent Friday simply observing players play the game.

Other companies do this as well. Blizzard did it extensively back in the day (Strike Teams and all). The point is that you look at the player's actions as opposed to his or her words.

Feedback with gameplay footage is fine. But feedback with no gameplay footage can be misleading. I simply don't trust such feedback. After all, anyone can write anything on the Internet.

One observation I've had is that the RPG Maker games that do get big tend to do so from outside the community. Why is that? Unknown. Whatever it is, it's clear community feedback plays no role because they weren't part of the community to begin with!