Dungeon Design for Dummies

[Ragpuppy87]

I've been working with RPG Maker for nearly 3 years now.

I feel I have become "adequate" at most aspects of designing a game with the software. Except Dungeon design. I am just horrible at it. I've read articles and watched some videos but nothing seems to click.

I've had to recruit a dungeon designer for my own project, but things are going slowly. I'd like to be able to take some more initiative. This is something I need to learn eventually one way or another.

To anyone reading this who is able to create a decent dungeon layout. How did you learn? What tips can you share?

If any knows of a good series of tutorials that can provide some hands on experience just to get the feel of dungeon design please feel free to share.

Basically I'm hoping this thread can become an index of various advice, tutorials, articles etc for myself and anyone else who struggles with dungeon design to use and hopefully learn from.

Anything and everything regarding dungeon design is welcome. Everyone has different learning styles. I personally do best with hands on experiences.
But that might not be the same for everyone. So feel free to share a wide variety of resources. I hope to help not just myself but as many others as possible. Eventually someone will maybe share something that provides the "Eureka" moment for someone else.

 

[Andar]

It would help a lot if you tell us two things:
1) what is the problem you have with your own designs? what part of your expectations do they not fulfill?
2) what is the purpose of the dungeons in your game?

There is no perfect dungeon because in different games the dungeons have different purposes - in some they are supposed to be there for enemy grinding, in others the players have to pass them to get to the next country in the world, or then they are just sidelines and places for story content or a number of other reasons.

and depending on the reason and purpose of their existance, they need to be designed differently.
waypoints should focus on windind tunnels to emphasis travel, grind fests should place lairs for their monsters and any puzzle should only block going in but not going out and more

 

[Ragpuppy87]

It would help a lot if you tell us two things:
1) what is the problem you have with your own designs? what part of your expectations do they not fulfill?
2) what is the purpose of the dungeons in your game?

The problem I personally have is layout and ideas to make the dungeon stand out.

I create a new empty map. And then I just stare at the screen for 20 minutes wondering what the heck to do.

Do I put a room here? A corrridor there? If I say yes then why? What purpose does it serve.

Eventually I get frustrated and just end up using the random dungeon layout designer, putting some chests in random places and calling it better than nothing.

I have 9 dungeons in my project.
8 Are based on the 8 in game elements. So I have a theme.
The ninth is a final dungeon that is supposed to be a final challenge for the player that takes aspects of all the previous dungeons and incorporates them.

The dungeons exist as the main quest line of the game. Something lies in each dungeon the player must collect. With all eight items they can unlock the final dungeon which Eventually leads to the final boss.

 

[TheoAllen]

Do you want it to have lore or not?
If not, then just design a layout based on your gameplay.
Put random secret place for no reason other than to surprise your player.

 

[LostFonDrive]

The problem I personally have is layout and ideas to make the dungeon stand out.

I create a new empty map. And then I just stare at the screen for 20 minutes wondering what the heck to do.

Do I put a room here? A corrridor there? If I say yes then why? What purpose does it serve.

Eventually I get frustrated and just end up using the random dungeon layout designer, putting some chests in random places and calling it better than nothing.

I have 9 dungeons in my project.
8 Are based on the 8 in game elements. So I have a theme.
The ninth is a final dungeon that is supposed to be a final challenge for the player that takes aspects of all the previous dungeons and incorporates them.

The dungeons exist as the main quest line of the game. Something lies in each dungeon the player must collect. With all eight items they can unlock the final dungeon which Eventually leads to the final boss.

I have this problem too sometimes. The ways to make the dungeon stand out a bit more:

1) Include backtracking and hub areas. Sounds weird (backtracking can be a negative if excessive), but dungeons where you keep moving forwards (corridor->room->corridor->room) are boring. Have a room with multiple doors, but some are locked and you'll need to come back later. Maybe there's an aspect of the room that changes later - e.g. the water level gets lowered, revealing a new part of the room you couldn't touch before (or it raises and you can swim across)

This also allows you to let the player create a shortcut back to these areas, which feels satsifying as a player. E.g. you see a high-up ledge you cannot reach yet. Later you get there, and you can throw down a ladder that acts as a shortcut. Souls games do this a lot for example.

2) Puzzles. Obvious but still worth pointing out. Tying in with my first point somewhat, don't have all puzzles be self-contained puzzles confined to one room. There could be larger puzzles that span multiple rooms or the entire dungeon, such as the water levels example (Ocarina of Time's Water Temple is a great example, but probably too complex to replicate in RPG Maker. But still, the concept behind it is inspirational)

3) Again tied to my first point - Goodies that are out of reach, to tease players. E.g. a treasure chest that the player can see but can't get to it yet. Later, when they reach it, it feels good. "Oh, this is that chest I saw 10 minutes ago!"

4) Landmarks that make certain areas distinct. Especially good if it's a dungeon where players are likely to get lost. It's very relieving when you come across something you can instantly recognize, and suddenly you're no longer lost because you understand where you are ("Oh, this is the other side of that broken bridge I saw ages ago!). It also just makes it visually more interesting. E.g. a lava themed dungeon could have a central room that's just a square-shaped path around a pool of lava and a big statue. With lavafalls in the walls. Or a big staircase leading to a boss door which you'll come back to once you have the key.

Sorry for being a bit vague but these are the kinds of ideas that subtly make dungeons more interesting. I highly recommend you play/replay a Zelda game dungeon for inspiration

 

[Ragpuppy87]

My project is set up very much like an old school Zelda game.

Take "Link's Awakening"

8 dungeons to collect 8 items.
As each dungeon is completed more lore is revealed about the game's plot and world. Each dungeon doesn't necessarily have it's own lore but is rather a piece of a larger puzzle regarding the story and lore of the world.

That's my current project in particular. But I am hoping for some more general tips regarding dungeon design. I do as I said have a dungeon designer currently and I trust them to do a good job.
But I would like to have a place to start with dungeon design for any future projects or simply for practice.

 

[Andar]

I create a new empty map. And then I just stare at the screen for 20 minutes wondering what the heck to do.

The first step should not be to create the map - and that counts everywhere, not just dungeon.

The first step should happen on pen and paper: a collection of things that are needed on the map.

On top of the paper you place your target as the title - Ice dungeon or farm village or whatever.

then you place a list of what should be the main points to include below it - at least three points of interest, more ifthe map is supposed to be larger.

and for each point you find that way, you may add more dependents to themselves.

so for an ice cave that might start with polar bears and snowman, and the polar bears might get a burrow to nest and an underground river to fish. Or for the farm village that might be pub, farmhouse and smithy, followed by what those need.

If at any point you don't know what might be connected to something, go to google picture search (important - picture, not regular search) and enter the word (like polar bear), then check the pictures that come up in the first ten or twenty pages - what have artists placed in their pictures of polar bears, or what got photographers in real life as part of the environment.


And when you think you have enough "points of interest", you start the map structure on another paper - plan what should be where before getting to the detailed placement.

 

[Frostorm]

I found this video to be very educational:

Note how ideas are jotted down 1st before even touching the RM editor, just as @Andar mentioned.

 

[gstv87]

Doom.


seriously, *Doom*, the original, from 1993.
it's Dungeon Design 101: enter the first level, and you see a normal reception atrium guarded by some humanoid troops. Next area, a control room, some humanoid troops that teleport in, and some exploded corpses. Something doesn't look right. Next area, and acid pool guarded by some aliens. Something is definitely wrong. Next area, dark storage room with some demonic paintings, enemies that teleport in, and some weird alien creatures, that can also be invisible at times..... "Oh hell no!"
that's Dungeon Design: escalation, complication, storytelling through art design, navigation, anticipation, etc.
When you go in, you can see the other end of the path through a large window to the outside. When you get there, there's a door hidden in the wall. "Can I get outside? Oh yeah, I can!" And you go outside and see the same thing from another angle. That adds to the gameplay later on, when you're required to traverse outdoor paths and see things from another place, to find your way through.
it was all there since 1993 and I didn't see it.
I might have to go and replay it lol.

Do I put a room here? A corrridor there? If I say yes then why? What purpose does it serve.

BSP design, which also inherits from Doom and Quake: instead of thinking in rooms, think in holes.
the BSP format works by "carving out" rather than "building up".... at processing time, everything is built as concave surfaces, and everything has to be an enclosed space, so instead of making "rooms" you're much better off by designing "walkable spaces", because if you need to stretch the room outwards, you can... because the room always ends up being the sum of it's interior contents, wrapped in a shell, and everything outside it is empty space.
make the path, obstruct the path, light the path, bend the path, etc.... once you're happy with the path that the player would have to make, THEN call it a "room" by adding the outer wall.
if you start from the outer shell and start adding things, at some point you'll have to alter the size of the shell... and if you don't, then the room will look cramped, or not too furnished at all.
that's what made me remember Doom: dungeons are just enclosed pathways with obstacles.