Dynamic Stories?

Mouser

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I don't think really think the same people praised Walking Dead's fake story branching unless they are hypocrites but regardless, it is an undeniable fact that Mass Effect 3 players have all the right to go mad at that ending. The game emphasizes on player choice all the time and gives the impression that it will affect the outcome but in the end, it gives you three preset options out of no where and that is it... What happened to all the choices we made along the way? At least they gave us different colors for the explosion, yay! XD
The worst game in that regard has got to be KoTOR 2.  Loads of choices throughout the game, gaining influence with different characters, and the ending comes down to one dialog choice you make literally a minute or so before the ending credits roll.
 

Tai_MT

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I actually wouldn't have a problem with all the whiny players going "Mass Effect 3 ending sucks because of choices not mattering at the end and only a different colored explosion!".  The problem is that they petitioned Bioware to change the ending.  Bioware changed all of the largest complaints with the ending (I'm not even kidding, the Extended Cut ending addressed all the major complaints).  They released the new ending FOR FREE.

You know what the response was?  "Ending still sucks!" along with "I'm not playing it again just to see the new ending!".  Basically, the people with the complaints about the ending to Mass Effect 3 amount to the biggest douchebags on the internet.  They are the spammers, trollers, and high pitched screaming and singing kids you meet every single match of every single multiplayer game.  They are the worst examples of not only Gamers, but Humanity in general.

Now, would I be so mean to such players if they had only complained about the ending?  Nope.  If they'd complained that it sucked, I'd disagree but could see where they were coming from.  I can see why it might have been unsatisfactory for some players (in fact, on release day, my friend and I played the game side by side for a weekend.  He beat the game on a Saturday Night and hated the ending.  I beat the game later and saw the new ending with that friend.  So, I saw the original ending and he saw the new one).  However, when Bioware was like, "look, we screwed up, we're sorry.  Here's a much better ending with everything you guys wanted and complained about.  Also, here's some other free DLC that we were planning to charge you for, but now we won't, 'cause we know how bad we screwed up." the same players who complained about the previous ending, suddenly couldn't be bothered to view the new one.  Of the ones that did view the new one, they started their complaints again.

So, with that attitude of those players in mind...  They're whiny crybabies who can't be pleased no matter what.  They were out to hate the ending of Mass Effect 3 regardless of what it ever was.  They were just there to complain about the series and didn't care about the experience at all, even when the programmers made your choices count after their "terrible ending".  It only gets worse when players keep saying that "The ending to Mass Effect 3 sucks".  It got changed, just for you, so why can't you just let it go and enjoy the ending you demanded?  I mean... just saying...

The absolute last straw for me was when I saw forums flooded with posts from a lot of these same whiners about how "amazing" The Walking Dead game was.  They were telling everyone about how "deep" their choices were and how meaningful their decisions were!  Why, nobody had ever made a game this amazing to do with choice!  None of these players had ever played through the game a second time to see that there are no choices in the game.  There are only illusions of choices.  The choices you make have even less impact on the story than the original ending of Mass Effect 3.  But, hey, none of them knock "The Walking Dead", even though a good many of them are still knocking the ending to Mass Effect 3.

It's just one of those things that makes me wish the Gaming Community was not as big as it is, because of the amount of absolute hypocrisy that has joined the ranks.  It makes me lose faith in humanity.
 

lorzilor

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I actually wouldn't have a problem with all the whiny players going "Mass Effect 3 ending sucks because of choices not mattering at the end and only a different colored explosion!".  The problem is that they petitioned Bioware to change the ending.  Bioware changed all of the largest complaints with the ending (I'm not even kidding, the Extended Cut ending addressed all the major complaints).  They released the new ending FOR FREE.

You know what the response was?  "Ending still sucks!" along with "I'm not playing it again just to see the new ending!".  Basically, the people with the complaints about the ending to Mass Effect 3 amount to the biggest douchebags on the internet.  They are the spammers, trollers, and high pitched screaming and singing kids you meet every single match of every single multiplayer game.  They are the worst examples of not only Gamers, but Humanity in general.
First of all, I would like to say I respect you as a person for your good advice in dynamic storylines. Second of all, I made an account just to reply to this.

Clearly you're a huge fan of Bioware -- I respect that. I honestly understand where you're coming from. It's easier to try to understand why they did what they did than to say 'Hey, this is lazy writing.' Because there was more wrong with Mass Effect 3 than the ending alone. And calling anyone that disagrees with your opinion "kids" "douchebags" or "whiners" is, frankly, uncouth and... well... unsportsmanlike. It is better to face the problem head-on, without insulting or demeaning the opposing side, and merely examine the work for itself. Let it speak for itself if there was nothing wrong with it, or let it stand the test of a thousand opinions and either come out successful or a failure. In my opinion, it was a failure.

The common gamer is easily swayed, true, yet I would endeavor to declare that ME3's entire story was not only fragmented from the rest of the franchise, but it was a clear and blatant example of bad writing. They failed to keep their characters consistent, failed to maintain the malleable main character spell, failed to be consistent with their presentation of lore, failed to present a clear solution to their problems, and succeeded in making everything about emotion and nothing about objective plot points. It was completely un-immersive. 

They did not change the ending, either. Remember what they called the add-on DLC? "The Extended Cut". I would like to, hopefully not in any condescending manner, though it may appear as such, remind you of the meaning of the word "extended". It does not mean in any manner that Bioware "retconned", "made anew", or even "changed" their previous ending, rather, it explicitly declares that they made what they had before longer. And contrary to what you may have witnessed, this placated about half of the unhappy fans. Some are even willing to give DA:I a chance now, while the other half retain bitter dislike of Bioware in general, much like a spurned lover.

I am of the latter. And I am only of the latter because I really thought Bioware was trying to complete a story they had set out in creating. I thought they would tie up loose ends and use the same wit and innovative storytelling they had used in their previous installments. When I saw ME3 wasn't up to par, I was both offended and wounded. Offended because I had thrown so much cash into a game I had researched and found the presented information (information given by Bioware, I may add) inaccurate and even deceptive, and I was wounded because I had long been emotionally invested in the Mass Effect universe. While I understand the hostility of the fans as a result of their, perhaps, similar emotional reactions, I did not partake in it aside from some moping and griping. And a lot of drawings of Tali. A lot of that.

So hopefully you can at least endeavor to understand that the Retake ME3 movement wasn't meant to show entitlement or childishness. Rather, it was a hopeful statement created to the end that Bioware would listen and accept criticism for their writings -- criticism that Bioware had shown time and time again to censor, disregard, or label as merely childish or entitled, just as you are doing now. While I wouldn't say Bioware should be forced to obey the voices of the internet, I do think disregarding them and censoring them is not only unjust, but bad public relations, and it only further incensed their opposition.

Just my piece.

(Also the reaction to Walking Dead has pretty much nothing to do with the reaction to ME3. There's no reason to relate the two.)
 
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Tai_MT

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Well, since this is your first post, let me welcome you to the forums.  This next bit is the disclaimer.  If you stick around long enough, you'll notice I'm the resident jerkface.  If anything I say offends you or makes you angry in any way, it kind of means I'm doing my job.  With that said, I don't intend to anger anyone, it's just the easiest way to make people actually think about their own point of view as well as mine.  Especially since angry people are much easier to manipulate.

Now, let's start this thing and kick the popsicle stand.

I am not a huge fan of Bioware.  In fact, I think the only games I own that they've made are the Mass Effect series.  That should give you a good indication on what I think of their other games (not worth the time to play or buy).  I am, however, a fan of a game company that actually listens to the complaints of its fanbase and then attempts to fix them.  Not many companies try to do that.  In fact, fewer and fewer try that every year.  It's a quality I admire, even if they completely botch it.  Also, I saw both endings of Mass Effect 3.  There were some pretty large changes made (including being able to actually have a romantic moment with your sweetie before the end as well as being able to "go it alone" so that your squadmates don't die with you).  We had added options at the end so that the endings we were choosing were explained to us, we even had a completely new ending choice added so that you could basically tell the holographic star child thing to kiss your rear and you'll fight it out by yourself (with predictable consequences).  Lots of these changes were things the community wanted in the ending that they didn't get.  In fact, much of the "extended content" went towards complaints about the endin(including the Mass Relays only being damaged instead of destroyed) was not just addressed, but fixed entirely.  So, it's not merely an "extended ending" it's a "we rewrote large chunks of this ending just to cater to an angry fanbase".

I like that your complaints about Mass Effect 3 are the very same complaints I have about Mass Effect 2 and the absolute garbage of a game that was.  In fact, I love Mass Effect 3 only because it removes the bad taste of Mass Effect 2 from my mouth and wipes the memories clean (thanks for changing Ashley's personality between games!  Thanks for changing Shepard's personality between games!  Thanks for rendering all my progress with the council moot!).  The great thing about Mass Effect 3 is that it fixes most of the problems I had with 2.  I still love Mass Effect 1 the best.

I don't have issues with people who didn't like the ending of Mass Effect 3.  I don't look down on them simply for not liking it.  I look down on them for complaining about the Mass Effect 3 ending and then going on to say that "The Walking Dead" and its ending was "amazing!".  It was not.  These are the people I look down on, the hypocrites.  These same players should actually hate The Walking Dead game for the same reasons they hated the Mass Effect 3 ending.  Nothing more, nothing less.  I'm just demanding consistency.
 

Mouser

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Might I suggest if you get the free time to try out the earlier Bioware titles, back when they were with Black Isle and were, frankly good at what they did, which was making kick-ass games.

Baldurs Gate Trilogy (really the first two, The 3rd was meh). Play it with the trilogy mod though so it all goes as one seamless game, using the better engine of BG 2. Planescape: Torment is still a classic that developers today could learn from: the best solution to the die/reload last save mechanic I have ever seen in a game. Ever. Icewind Dale isn't bad if you like dungeon crawls, but they're kind of weak on story.

The first Neverwinter Nights and it's expansions are pretty good (and there are over 100k new adventure type mods for it - seriously). KotOR 1 was another great game - a great reveal with a good story line and gameplay mechanics.

I haven't played Mass Effect. One of those games I keep saying I'll pick up someday but never do...
 

Tai_MT

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I just have no interest in any of the other games Bioware has put out...  I tried Dragon Age...  It's like Mass Effect except the game doesn't really tell you where you're going or what you're doing.  As far as dungeon crawlers go, the only one of those I ever played that I liked was "Champions of Norrath".

Mass Effect was the first game they ever put out that I saw and went "I want that.".  Even if it wasn't quite "as advertised" in the Dev Diaries they released as well as the trailers.  I assume that's from Executive Meddling.
 

Eschaton

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Mass Effect was the first game they ever put out that I saw and went "I want that.".  Even if it wasn't quite "as advertised" in the Dev Diaries they released as well as the trailers.  I assume that's from Executive Meddling.
Yeah, when I saw that beta gameplay, I felt cheated.  They were probably made to dumb it down for the console.  That, and I'm pretty sure that lower-end rigs wouldn't have been able to handle that awesome Galaxy Map.
 

Tai_MT

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Yeah, I was sad that most of the "open areas" they showed in the BETA and ALPHA footage as well as trailers simply didn't exist in game.  They even removed the "interrupt squadmate" feature and it never really saw a return to what it was advertised as being.  A lot of the enemy models and weapon effects (as well as menus!) even looked much better in the trailers than we ended up getting in game.  Considering that they had all this cool stuff in actual builds in the game and then it was all nixed and simplified... you can only assume Executive Meddling took place in there somewhere just to get it released.  It didn't even get much fanfare when it was released.  It was one of those "hidden gems" that gamers pass amongst each other until they all buy the game too, as there wasn't really anyone anticipating it on launch.
 

Eschaton

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I can't really say "executive meddling" because this was before the EA acquisition.  However, I am aware of the practice of building and re-building.  You never make a final game off the beta build.  Good practice is to re-build from the ground up after you have established proof-of concept.   Lots of factors go into the rebuild, such as disc space, bugs, code optimization, etc, etc.  Sure, gameplay in the final game was buggy as hell, but the menus and user interface was flawless.  I'm sure the Mass Effect beta build had lots of bugs.

Reminds me of how I felt when I crammed as many scripts into my first project as I could, only to run into compatibility issues.  I had to really get to know the scripts I wanted and redesign my gameplay to fit the scripts as they were compatible with each other, taking out the incompatible ones.

But, back to topic, I think the ME3 ending sucked because it was so ridiculous and contrary to the themes of the setting and in defiance of the series' hard-or-at-least-plausible science.  The ending failed because they introduced a plot point at the 12th hour, they took away almost all player agency, and the only real difference between each of the 3 endings are really the color of the explosion and the slideshow.  While I do agree that the endings that are available to the player needs to be congruent with their choices, the endings need to be wildly different, indicating difference in themes and morality based on player agency.
 

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