Each Character has Impact by Class

[Tagris]

I am in the process of making my game. 

I have 10 characters that the player chooses from to put in their party.  These characters fit into sub-groups (Healer, Magic DPS, Physical DPS, Tank, Support) with two for each role taking a variation on the idea for each character.

So the two Magic DPS champs have very different ways of addressing this idea.  One is a wild mage and one is an elemental blaster, creating different approaches to the idea.

But then I stepped back and looked at my classes and wondered what made them FEEL like that class.

For example:  My rogue is a (support) class.  He has debuff abilities, he does okay dps (not like the actual dps) and assists the party by being able to steal items.

This felt like other RPGs, the rogue is just like every other character but in combat has a skill that allows him to 'steal' something.

That frustrated me, I wanted it to have a greater impact so that if you choose the Rogue you FEEL like that class is with you.

I looked at dialogue options, and added them...but felt like it was not enough.

So recently I added a 'mini-game' where when you stay at an Inn you can send your rogue out at night.  I dim the map, have events to keep the character in bounds of the town, and have doors locked and stuff to 'steal' inside the houses.  The rogue separates from the party and the game starts.

As the rogue steals things and lockpicks, it increases the chances of being caught (using a random variable + a variable of other events run that are stealing/lockpicking).

What it ended up doing, was creating a fun little game that had impact if the player wanted to feel like they had a rogue with them (also further increasing the 'item' boost that the character provided which is the primary support aspect they affect)

I then started looking at my other characters and wondered what ways I could look at their class and have them feel more like that class out of combat so that by choosing them you feel like you actually have a 'rogue' 'mage' 'cleric' in your party and that it impacts your play through and experience in the game.

Anyone else experimented with this idea out of combat?  What ways did you implement it that you feel worked or didn't work?

 

[BloodletterQ]

I don't intend to recruit people to discuss my this on my post, but I made a simiilar one here. Just don't want to flood this board with many topics on the same subject.

 

[Tagris]

Hello.  I reviewed your post and it appears to be talking about skill balancing.

Specifically , I wanted to review out of combat options for having characters have impact based on their class to enhance their role or their 'feeling' as that class to the player.

Did you mean to link a different thread?

 

[Natural]

Dude that stealing system sounds dope. 10/10 I would have never thought of that tbh. 

 

[Ralpf]

That sounds fun, you need to figure out a way to limit it so players don't feel like they have to grid items to do well in the game, but beyond that sounds great.

I would try to get some of your other characters involved in there own way with there own mini games.

 

[Crimson Dragon Inc.]

first and foremost, rogues =/= thief, a rogue is someone capable of talking their way out of trouble, who generally does things for their own benefit/cause and are generally very skilled in several aspects of finess, becuase of this rogue is generally used to describe people, like rogue paladin, or rogue priest or rogue warrior etc

a thief is someone who steals for a living 

but recent rpgs and media have decided to just change it to where all rogues are thieves or assassins becuase they are lazy

now that mini game does sound like a great idea, but how are you gonna balance it so that it doesnt greak the game by obtaining some super gear long before you would get it normally?

and for priests you could have them when you go to the inn or enter a town to give sermons or help the sickly or just simply try and convert all non believers to their religion?

for mages it depends on their personality, is the mage an experimenter or do they love to read and study? you could add aspects to them based on these

same goes for warrior types, tank or melee dpser, what exactly are they? are they rage monsters, or thugs, or noble paladins? their dialouge should reflect this to and you can add quests that only a noble paladin would drag the rest of the party on

and you could add something like the rogue and paladin are at each other's throat constently cuase of differances in opinion

 

[ArcaneEli]

Above poster said pretty mcuh everything I wanted.

also if only the rogue has a minigame then everyone would pick him cause that stealing minigame can EASILY make up for not being so good in combat.

And if everyone has a minigame then it's not really picking which characters are good in battle, but which minigame can benefit you more to help your bad fighting.

 

[Tagris]

Thank you Natural and Ralpf.

Symantics aside, a question was brought up about balance.  I would like to resist the urge to move the discussion there because it exists for all aspects of the game.  Skills, at their foundation, can unbalance the game...but we still give them to characters...we just balance them before we do (or attempt to).  The mini-game offered here would go through a similiar balance based on %.

I.e. if you have a 5% chance to get caught after 1 lockpick and 1 stolen item, on average how many items could you steal before being caught (loosing all items and being fined).  Take that average number of items and create a small varience in the power of what is offered in the items (Several healing items on level with the Rogue, a few above, a few below).  Look at the gold amount that is offered by this process and balance it based on party gold at that point in the game.

Additionally, this ability is only able to be used once in each town (after being used, the rogue is 'too worried about being caught')

It is important to note, that the Rogue character is a Support character and is meant to offset the cost of not having a healing class go with the party (ideal in a tank/dps party grouping) which would require the party to use items to sustain them.  The rogue helps offset that cost while also providing DPS.

Now that we can place that aside, Einherijar and ArcaneEli you bring up points that is why I brought the discussion to the forum as I encountered the same thoughts and wanted to know how others would handle it.

Not every mini-game is emersive or enhanced the feel of the character without costing the player experience...IE having my Paladin give a sermon is only so interesting, even as a mini-game to try and gather followers...and it would have to be optional...since maybe the person picked the Paladin, but isn't that interested in his out of combat playstyle.

However, Einherijar you did mention mages and got me thinking.  Adding a little process for them to create their own spells would be an interesting twist and I could do it at a key point (allowing them to create a signature spell).  I could do it using events and have the variations made.  This would make it so that they felt more like that 'dedicated' mage that can use arcane tomes to gather knowledge.

As for your concern ArcaneEli with everyone picking the rogue, I don't think that will be an issue.  Even if he is the only character I can flesh out in this way.  His mini-game isn't unbalancing (as I control the rewards), but it is fun (if you like that kind of play).

I feel like it gives a 'take it or leave it' attitude towards getting more into the character.

To refine the conversation:

How would you, out of combat and dialogue branches, express a character class in a way the player can interact with.  Let's use the archtypes: Rogue, Wizard, Fighter, Healer.

Is there a way that is meaningful for all of them?

 

[Crimson Dragon Inc.]

well every thing dialogue wise boils down to character personality, a rogue would use guile and finess and will also use other more thugish means if nessacary to improve their situation as rogue is in fact a personality trait

wizard (basicly any spell caster) generally take a more logical approach to situations, but thats for old experianced ones, you could have one with a fiery temper or one who is silent and shy, though considering the time and effort it takes to be a wizard, the logical narcistac personality is usually picked

fighters now this one is entirely based on personality and why they chose to be a fighter, for instance lets say you have a fighter named brutus, he wanted to be a rogue/thief but was to big and clumsy, he tried to be a wizard aswell but had no magical gift, but found he was highly talented in the art of combat and decided to become a soldier.

 

[jonthefox]

I think this is such a great idea, and may steal it.  Mages could work on potions or alchemy.  Knights could do a training exercise every morning or something which ,if they do it successfully, gives them a (very small, like +1) boost to their HP.   The possibilities are endless.  I do think things like this add greatly to the flavor of the game; they're just a lot of extra work to implement.  

 

[Chrispy]

I don't have specific mini-games for any of my characters, but rather, I am planning to give each of them a useful ability for when you are exploring the map. Using the game I'm planning for an example of what classes/characters can do outside combat if you have them in your party ::: (all mechanics are assuming enemies spawn on the map as NPC's before you fight them....)

- The Changling can change their form to look like guards on the map to make it easier to sneak into new areas without having to fight or find a key. They can also change into a mouse to get into pipes and a bird to fly to hard to reach areas.

- The Elementals are able to conjure effects tied to their base element. Fire Elementals for example can melt Ice and glow to light up pitch-black dungeons. Earth Elementals for another example can summon a sand storm to make it easier to sneak past guards, or can break through cracks in the wall to make a new passage.

- The Techno-Wizard (working title) can craft electronic devices and use them in combat, but also out of combat to aid in navigation. They can build things like night-vision goggles to see in the dark, or build a bomb to blast through a crack in the wall.

- The Vampire can change into Mist to cover the dungeon, making it easier to sneak past guards, and can turn into a bat to fly to hard to reach areas.

- Werewolf has Dark-Vision to see in pitch black areas, and can speak to animal enemies to talk them out of a fight, and get information on the dungeon itself.

- Etc. There's at least ten more classes/characters. Many abilities overlap so that way you can pick the party you want without feeling limited.

These aren't traditional classes, but you can easily transfer it over if you want to, lets make it more interesting to give them an additional out of combat effect if they are made your party leader :::

- Rogues aren't just thieves, they are master lock-pickers and trap detectors. If you take a Rogue and make him party leader, maybe traps on the map are highlighted so you can avoid them....or disarm them for materials and experience.

- Wizard would be your master at getting past most obstacles. Freeze water to make a walkway, turn the waterfall to steam to get past, etc. If you have a Wizard as leader, then these obstacles are highlighted so you know they exist, but having someone else as leader wouldn't necessarily prevent you from interacting with the obstacle, then using the wizard to get past.

- If you have your Barbarian as your party leader, you have a chance to intimidate nearby enemies, causing them to run away and leave their treasure behind. If your Barbarian isn't party Leader, you should still keep him around to interact with some obstacles to break them so you can keep going (such as boulders or cracks in the wall)

- If you have your Paladin in your party, human enemies might be a little hesitant to attack you. Use your Paladin as leader to speak to the humans to possibly gain an ally, gain an item, or gain information.

- Druids could speak to animal enemies to gain a temporary ally, or gain information like the location of the human's treasure.

- Rangers, being masters of survival, would highlight medicinal herbs on the map when set as party leader, and even if not leader, you can use their superior marksmanship to shoot hard to reach buttons and switches.

As far as dialogue goes, use of language is important to set classes apart. Your Orc Barbarians, no matter their personality, might use simple words, and maybe never speak a sentence with more than one word. An Elven Wizard though,  might use much larger words, and be far more descriptive when describing the same situation. Example :::

Barbarian - Beware! Dragon Big! Dragon Strong! Fire Burns!

Wizard - Watch out everyone! This is a Zilvarian Greenback. She's only a juvenile though, not quite full size. Don't let her size fool you! That breath attack could ignite steel as if it were paper.....

 

[Wavelength]

A few other things you could do outside of combat, besides using their powers to solve puzzles of course, would be to have a ranger/survivalist type character be able to gather items while walking around in wilderness areas, have elemental mages "draw" resources out of landmarks with strong natural affinities, have a character that rides horses (or some other fantasy creature) serve as your "vehicle" on the world map, or allow a merchant/banker character to enable "haggling" with shop owners around the world.

I think there's a lot of room in combat to define your character's style too, though.  An interesting rogue or assasssin character, for example, might have high offensive and speed stats, pathetically low defensive stats, abilities that can "stealth" the rogue or even other party members so that they don't get targeted until they attack an enemy, other abilities that deal high damage while stealthed, and bonuses against enemies that are near death (or bonuses for killing enemies).  This would create a play pattern of "avoid getting hit, wait for the right time to strike, and then unload a lot of damage for a kill", which feels qualitatively different than other DPS characters might feel, even in a turn-based system.

 

[Tagris]

 A lot of great responses...specifically Chrispy your outline really helped me to identify some options and opportunities.

I am filled with new idea's and options as a result of this thread.  While I don't have a response, I am interested in more dialogue about what individuals would use out of combat (other then text) to create a feel for a character class.

One i have near heard a response for would be the Healer class.

What options do they have?  I feel like they have struggled for an out of combat identity that ties to their character class.

I pick a Healer.

I want to feel like a healer.  I like the identity of a healer.

Now I am walking around the world map, how do I 'feel' like I am a healer.  Is it an event, is it an optional way of solving an issue?

What do you guys think?

 

[Crimson Dragon Inc.]

well healers are a difficult subject.... what kind of healer are they? do they use magic to heal or gather herbs and mix healing remedies?

 

[Chrispy]

It really does depend on the type of healer. Lets assume that your healer isn't a ranger posing as a druid, and your healer isn't an armor wearing, skull bashing Cleric. Lets just look at a healer that is literally a non-combatant that is supporting the rest of the party from the back line, like a Priest, or maybe a Medic.

- The Priest or Priestess is generally a religious leader of some rank, of whatever patron god or goddess they believe in and draw power from. In fantasy games they are also powerful magical healers. If you have the Priest as your party leader, then enemies that have the same religion might hesitate to attack you, not wanting to bring on the wrath of their patron god. Though, this would cause enemies of other religions to attack you harder and possibly in greater numbers, wanting to kill the false believers.

No matter their religion though, a Priest generally doesn't want death, they want life, After battles with enemies, a random event could spawn, giving you a chance to heal the enemies you just beat to an inch of their life, in exchange for their thanks, information, or an item they were hiding. In towns, an event could happen where the local villagers are begging you to heal them of the plague that just hit their town, or they might want you to preside over a funeral, a marriage, or just pray for them.

- A Medic might be magical or not. They might be less discriminate than the priest over an enemy death. Their medical knowledge is vast though, and no matter where they go, there is always need of a doctor. Like the priest, they could heal the sick and injured (and unlike most priests, charge for their services!). They could examine dead bodies in a dungeon or town and determine the cause of death, the information could help you tremendously in battle if it is a foreign status effect you never heard of, but the information can also be used to solve a mysterious murder in a quest.

Can't think of much more than that, but I'm sure here are plenty of options involving Alchemists, Bards, and other classes similar to healers.

 

[Tagris]

Good stuff!  I like the ideas thanks for taking the time Chrispy

 

[HeathRiley]

I do think healers in general are a difficult subject. When the pen and paper rpg genre even began a healer was a necessity and now a lot of things are moving away from that in favor of higher damage (action) and accessibility (easiness). I personally think it's a good idea to have a healer or some sort whether the are full heal or support heal. I liked chrispys last post and it brought up some roles that healers come from.

If you had an alchemist you could gather herbs outside or during battle to do both heals and effects.

A priest could allow each battle to begin with a small shielding effect for the party. Or teleports between temples.

A bard could heal and buff with music during battle and could allow for special occasions at locations such as pubs.

A medic could allow for heals for every step taken outside battle, like an mp free upkeep ability.

Or you could mix and match to make a class you feel provides a unique sense of identity.

Cheers