Element system - which games uses this system?

[FlamingWolf - Zezaph]

So, I'm choosing the elements for my game. I don't want to use the usual fire/water/earth/wind thing, since it's just too common. At the same time I don't want 10+ elements ( like it happens in pokemon ), because it can make things confusing.

So I chose this concept: Wu Xing ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Xing ), which are the elements in the chinese alchemy.

Ok ok, I know, using the Wu Xing isn't more original than the fire/water/wind/earth combination, but at least is different.

Now my question: do you know of any videogame that uses these elements? I don't remember seeing any, and I would like to see if these elements have been used in other games ( just to have a point of reference for balancing spells, attacks and so on... )

Thanks

 

[Pugh95Bear]

Using the normal system is totally fine. There isn't too much of a need to do this. Although it is good to try and make your game as original as possible, keep in mind that the players do need something to relate to. That something usually being an idea that his become a norm of the genre. Also, in some cases, it even brings a sense of nostalgia.

Here is an example of a game from my childhood that uses the basic element system, and their opposites. This game being The Legend of Dragoon (I know, other readers may realize I keep referring to it).

Fire - Water

Earth - Wind

Light - Darkness

Thunder - No Opposite

Non-Elemental - No Opposite

Okay, so it seems fairly basic right? Well, not really. The enemies get progressively harder, and you have a Dragoon Meter to keep filled to use your good elemental attacks. All enemies have some form of elemental attribution, and the game makes sure that you think before you swing. Sure, your characters' basic attacks still follow the elemental idea too, but the real damage is dealt in the Dragoon state.

There are several games that do an idea like this such as Final Fantasy and, yes, Pokemon . Many people would expect to see the names of the elements like you would see in the older games, so it's okay in many case to keep using them.

Of course, this is all opinion.

_______________________

Now, to answer your actual question, Ninja Gaiden uses the system, though it is far more elaborate (a lot of sub elements in there too).

 

[kerbonklin]

A pro tip is always try to relate your elements into the game somehow, whether it be plot or the world itself or the characters. (like if they have very special cases being religious or biological or whatever)

Like for example (although not a game), take Avatar the last Airbender. They have some people who are born with the ability to bend/control 4 mainstream elements (Earth/Fire/Water/Air) but as people they also live mainly separate in kingdoms/nations based off those elements. 90% of Fire benders lived in the Fire Nation, which is made of Volcanoes and close to the Equator. 90% of the Water benders live in the North and South poles which is the Arctic environments. See where i'm getting at here?

 

[orochii]

Can't remember it clearly, but if I'm not mistaken, Perfect World uses the five Win Xu elements. Only thing is that they didn't made any relation. Your element resistance comes from a numerical value increased by equipment. Same for enemies, which numerical value comes from their own stats of course, since they don't have equipment.

I think the way the graph from the wiki says it's pretty nice.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Wu_Xing.png

"Generating interaction" would mean recovering or half damage to that element. Overcoming interaction means higher damage. And you can throw Fire heals fire if you want, or leave it as half or even x1 damage. It all depends on what interpretation you give to it all.

I want to share my element categorization too <3. I use the 8 vanilla elements... Fire, Ice, Thunder, Water, Earth, Ice, Light and Dark.

Fire and Ice are opposites. Water and Thunder are opposites. Earth and Wind are opposites. Being the opposite of an element makes you to deal and receive twice the damage.

Wind is weak to Fire, but strong against Lightning.

Ice is weak to Lightning, but strong against Water.

Earth is weak to Water, but is strong against Fire.

On top of that are Light and Gloom, they are opposite one to the other but I forgot to include them on the image.

I also gave elements a color, so enemies would have that color somewhere on their body. Dunno if I'm actually going to do that lol.

I hope it gives you some ideas,

Orochii Zouveleki

 

[kerbonklin]

Fire and Ice are opposites. Water and Thunder are opposites. Earth and Wind are opposites. Being the opposite of an element makes you to deal and receive twice the damage.

Wind is weak to Fire, but strong against Lightning.

Ice is weak to Lightning, but strong against Water.

Your element logic is weird...

 

[Pugh95Bear]

Actually, it's surprisingly normal lol. That's another common one.


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[kerbonklin]

Actually, it's surprisingly normal lol. That's another common one.

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I wouldn't call Water and Thunder opposites at all, lol.  Water conducts electricity, they don't null each other out. Electricity completely takes over water. Also it takes a lot more Ice to douse Fire than it does Fire to douse Ice. Also Wind does not dictate Lightning paths.

There's just a major lack of relatable logic and it just throws everybody off. It's like saying Knives are super effective against Guns.

 

[Pugh95Bear]

When I say common, I mean commonly used. I know the logic is slightly lacking, but that doesn't mean it isn't common xD


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[orochii]

Well, I started pairing everything, and Water/Thunder were the leftovers. The reason I use for Thunder and Water is this. The thunder user itself is "weak" to water. When you're manipulating electricity, getting soaked puts you on a dangerous situation. Using water to power up your thunder is a double edged weapon.

Take "Ice" as "Cold", and "Fire" as "Heat". I hope that makes more sense.

Wind and Earth as opposites comes from the idea of Sky and Earth. Up and down. It's a pretty common thing on a lot of ancient cultures aside from the chinese Ying-yang.

My phrasing for the wind-lightning was not very explicative. Thunder is less effective against wind. Comes from the logic of air not being conductive, and when the lightning comes from the earth to the clouds, it ionizes the air, but after that it pretty much recomposes.

Lastly the Ice part is mostly balancing issues from the previous part. Water being less effective against Ice/Cold, which can be fine if seen from the "ice being solid water". And Thunder being strong against Ice (this is the part that makes no sense at all).

Anyway, you're correct, I have a weird logic, not matters what issue we are talking about x'D,

Orochii Zouveleki

 

[Pugh95Bear]

That looks about right, actually xD. I like the system, personally.


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[FlamingWolf - Zezaph]

Thank you for your replies

Using the normal system is totally fine. There isn't too much of a need to do this. Although it is good to try and make your game as original as possible, keep in mind that the players do need something to relate to. That something usually being an idea that his become a norm of the genre. Also, in some cases, it even brings a sense of nostalgia.

[...]

______________________
Now, to answer your actual question, Ninja Gaiden uses the system, though it is far more elaborate (a lot of sub elements in there too).

I understand the nostalgia thing, but the elements are not where I want to put it. I prefer to evoke some nostalgia with some of the mechanics, the epic events, the tricky bosses and some easter egg here and there.

I'll try out Ninja Gaiden ( I played it many years ago and I barely remember it ). But, surely, I'll not go into much complications with my system

A pro tip is always try to relate your elements into the game somehow, whether it be plot or the world itself or the characters. (like if they have very special cases being religious or biological or whatever)

Like for example (although not a game), take Avatar the last Airbender. They have some people who are born with the ability to bend/control 4 mainstream elements (Earth/Fire/Water/Air) but as people they also live mainly separate in kingdoms/nations based off those elements. 90% of Fire benders lived in the Fire Nation, which is made of Volcanoes and close to the Equator. 90% of the Water benders live in the North and South poles which is the Arctic environments. See where i'm getting at here?

That's already in my plans actually. One for sure are the 5 temples, that are part of a big sidequest to unlock the secret boss. And, for sure, the factions. Each and every one of them has one or 2 main elements ( elements that will be seen in the monsters of that areas and in the interactions with npcs ).

My intention is to make the elements an important part of the world ( like, for example, Magic the Gathering gives importance to the 5 mana colors ).

Can't remember it clearly, but if I'm not mistaken, Perfect World uses the five Win Xu elements. Only thing is that they didn't made any relation. Your element resistance comes from a numerical value increased by equipment. Same for enemies, which numerical value comes from their own stats of course, since they don't have equipment.

I think the way the graph from the wiki says it's pretty nice.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Wu_Xing.png

"Generating interaction" would mean recovering or half damage to that element. Overcoming interaction means higher damage. And you can throw Fire heals fire if you want, or leave it as half or even x1 damage. It all depends on what interpretation you give to it all.

I want to share my element categorization too <3. I use the 8 vanilla elements... Fire, Ice, Thunder, Water, Earth, Ice, Light and Dark.

Fire and Ice are opposites. Water and Thunder are opposites. Earth and Wind are opposites. Being the opposite of an element makes you to deal and receive twice the damage.

Wind is weak to Fire, but strong against Lightning.

Ice is weak to Lightning, but strong against Water.

Earth is weak to Water, but is strong against Fire.

On top of that are Light and Gloom, they are opposite one to the other but I forgot to include them on the image.

I like your elements. One thing: why not keep the 4 elements ( fire/water/earth/wind ) and mix them to create 6 new elements? For example fire+water=steam / water+wind=ice / etc...

It could create some nice mechanics and great bosses for your players

One of the reasons why I like the Wu Xing elements is that they are very balanced ( even in Chinese medicine the balance of these elements is existent and important ).