ellipsis maker ace or ellipsis maker xp

mlogan

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un·nec·es·sar·y

ˌənˈnesəˌserē/  

adjective

adjective: unnecessary

  1. 1.

    not needed.

    "a fourth Chicago airport is unnecessary"
 

Tai_MT

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So... your argument against me... is to prove me right?  How is something "unnecessary", but also "proper use"?  Explain that to me.

EDIT:  If it's unnecessary, it's pointless, correct?  If it is pointless, it's improper use, correct?  I'm afraid I don't understand how there is zero overlap between "unnecessary" and "improper use".  If it is unnecessary, it doesn't need to be used.  If it doesn't need to be used, then you're using it incorrectly if you use it at all.
 
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mlogan

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Just because something is unneccessary, doesn't mean it's incorrect.
 

Tai_MT

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Then explain how they aren't.  If something is unnecessary, then it shouldn't exist because it isn't needed.  If it's not needed and you put it in anyway, it's incorrect usage.  I don't know how you can see it any other way, especially without examples.

I think you're just trying to argue semantics at this point in order to try to prove that you're right.
 

Sharm

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Sorry, Tai, pointless does not mean improper use. For instance, I could clean my floor twice, but the second time would be unnecessary. That doesn't make cleaning my floor improper.


Many times in RPGs (especially older imported ones) ellipsis are overused. They may be technically correct, but removing most of them does not negatively affect the text, and it many cases would improve it. It's not the individual usage that's the problem, it's the large quantities that make it annoying.
 

Ms Littlefish

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While some things in writing are just wrong, it is rarely black and white. We can use something but often do not need to. That is also very true of comma usage. There are many ways to write and punctuate a sentence, but in ways that are often not needed for the correct understanding of a sentence. There are no technical use against writing it that way. There is a very blurry line where writing comes down to style.
 

mlogan

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From the article I linked:

"The usage of the em dash (—) can overlap the usage of the ellipsis, especially in dialogue"

So why not try to find other ways to convey the same thing? Like using an em dash in place of an ellipsis. Or just rethinking your sentence structure.

I think what the original poster meant, and many people agree with, is that it is not necessary to have 4 -5 (or more) ellipsis in every message box. If you are using that many, then perhaps you need to rethink your dialog and how you can structure it differently.

I personally don't have a problem with ellipsis. I think they that have their place, and quite frankly, I was glad that article confirmed what I believed to be correct usage of them.

I just don't understand why you are taking it SO PERSONALLY, when the op never pointed fingers at anyone.

Use as many ellipses as you want. I really don't care. But that doesn't make the op's opinion that they are overused invalid. Neither does the fact that they are being used correctly. He's just saying, they are used too much.

edit: Ninja'ed by two awesome ladies!
 
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Tai_MT

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Eh, by your example of cleaning the floor...  yeah, the second cleaning of the floor being unnecessary...  Is improper.  We actually have a name for people who do that.  Obsessive-Compulsives.  It's a psychological disorder.

Want to try again?

My grammar teacher always told us that if something was "unnecessary", then by definition it was improper use.  I'm from old-school grammar in which we would diagram sentences and other junk that I absolutely hated.  We were also given a thesaurus to help curb the "improper use".

If you find the usage of "ellipsis" to be excessive, then they are indeed used improperly.  If you find they're used correctly, then they can't be.
 

mlogan

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im·prop·er

imˈpräpər/  

adjective

adjective: improper

  1. not in accordance with accepted rules or standards, especially of morality or honesty.

    "he was accused of improper behavior in his business dealings"

    synonyms: inappropriate, unacceptable, unsuitable, unprofessional, irregular; More unethical, corrupt, immoral, dishonest, dishonorable

    "it is improper for policemen to accept gifts"

    indecent, risqué, off color, indelicate, naughty, suggestive, smutty, vulgar, crude, obscene;

    informalraunchy, steamy, blue, X-rated

    "improper limericks"

    antonyms: appropriate, acceptable, decent

Ahhh, I love actually looking at the definition of words. See, it seems that improper means that it is not correct. Where unnecessary is not needed. Those are not the same thing. Sharm would not be incorrect to mop her floor twice. Mopping her floor just might be not needed (though in my house, with kids, there are plenty of days mopping twice is very necessary).

And just because your teacher drilled something into your head does not make it so.
 

Ms Littlefish

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Sometimes. I overload my dishwasher with so much soap that it gets suds all over my kitchen floor. Mountains and mountains of bubbles. Then my boyfriend and I put on socks and slide all over the kitchen to get the floor clean that way.  We've even done that intentionally because it's the nicest our floor ever gets. Is it not necessary? Oh, Hell no. But it works and I love it.

If there were only one true way to write a sentence reading would get awfully boring. I'll always maintain that there is an art to writing. 
 
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Tai_MT

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See what I mean about arguing semantics?

"Why, they don't mean the exact same thing at all!"

Of course they don't.  If they were the same thing, they'd be the same word.

In real word standards, including in standards of grammar, if something is unnecessary, it is also improper use.  As in, it doesn't need to exist.  As in, it shouldn't be in the sentence.  As in, if it's in the sentence, it's being used incorrectly and improperly.

I don't know why this concept is so difficult to grasp.

EDIT:  It seems to me it's just an argument for the sake of the argument.  Because, you know, why should it be the way that makes the most sense?  Especially in context?  No, let's just argue semantics all day so I can get a high off of proving two different words mean different things despite how obvious that is!

Double EDIT:  I'd also like to point out Ms. Fish...  That is both improper use and unnecessary.  Exactly what I've been saying.
 
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Sharm

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Want to try again?
Not really, because at this point you're being stubborn and a little rude in your attempt to interpret the definition of unnecessary incorrectly. In no English dictionary or thesaurus will you find that the word "unnecessary" is the equivalent of saying "improper". The burden of proof is on you, not me. And honestly, I don't really care if you go on defining it incorrectly, it doesn't hurt me if you feel insulted by the point the OP is making. But because I'm interested in seeing if I can explain things more clearly, let me put it another way.


A square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not always a square. Same thing with unnecessary and incorrect, sometimes things can be unnecessary but not incorrect but something that is incorrect is always unnecessary.
 

mlogan

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Here is an example, straight from my daughter's grammar curriculum.

They set out on a journey.

Basic sentence, gets the point across.

Gathering their supplies, they set out on a journey to visit a neighboring king.

All of these added words are not necessary to tell what "they" are doing. But they are not incorrect or improper. In fact, these unnecessary words add to the sentence, giving a better mental picture.

Personally, I don't think any of the correct usages of an ellipsis are "necessary" except perhaps when leaving words out of quoted material. However, do they sometimes add depth and meaning to dialogue? Yes. Just as the extra words and phrases add description to the sentence.

And as for arguing semantics - yes I am, because you are basing your entire argument on incorrectly(improperly, but not unnecessarily) equating the meaning of two words. And also off of something one professor told you in one class.

edit:  "It seems to me it's just an argument for the sake of the argument. Because, you know, why should it be the way that makes the most sense? Especially in context? No, let's just argue semantics all day so I can get a high off of proving two different words mean different things despite how obvious that is!"

It feels to the rest of us that YOU are the one arguing for the sake of argument. No, I don't get a high of proving that two words mean different things. You are acting as if they do mean the same thing, that is the point I am trying to make.
 
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Tai_MT

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I don't feel insulted by the OP at all.  Here's how the topic reads:

OP complains about overuse of ellipsis.  Most of the replies are people justifying their usage of it.  So, I come back quite a while later because someone replied to the topic and I reread it in its entirety.  So, I think, "does this topic even need to exist since everyone replying to it is basically saying the proper usage of ellipsis?  Furthermore, why doesn't the OP have some websites cited for proper usage of an ellipsis so that they can teach people who use it incorrectly?"

My original posts in this topic were all even me joking around in the topic.  Not because I hold any particular hate or scorn for anyone in the topic, but because while I find the complaint to be valid, I also find it to be silly.  Hence, all my posts about the constant misuse of the word "irony", and why aren't people complaining about that as well?

My reply was basically a suggestion to the OP as well as to point out that Wikipedia says that all the people's replies for their justifications of using the ellipsis are actually correct in usage.

To which, I got an argument on semantics from mlogan there.  Which, started this entire argument about semantics.  So, mlogan...  I urge you to look up the word "Semantics" since you're so happy to look up and post things.  Look it up and tell me that we're not arguing semantics here.

I also like that everyone keeps telling me "they're two different words that mean different things!"  No!  Really?  Say it ain't so!  Why, I thought two words that were spelled completely differently would mean the exact same things!  I mean, that makes perfect sense that there would be two words that mean exactly the same thing!  If you want to argue semantics, that's fine, but admit that's what you're doing.  I'm telling you that by real world standards, if something in grammar is "unnecessary", then it is also "improper use".  Did you forget in your rush to claim victory that the argument was actually about the use of the ellipsis?  It was actually about grammar?  That it wasn't about definitions of words and providing examples that have nothing to do with grammar?  Did you forget that my arguments have and always were about the grammatical correctness of using ellipsis?  About the rules of grammar?

I guess it's easy to forget what the actual argument is about when you start getting mad and looking for ways to obtain any victory against a poster, no matter how small.  It's easy to forget what the actual topic is about when you invest your personal feelings.

Look, if you guys are somehow offended at what I've been writing, then I'm sorry you're offended.  The way I type is the way I think.  When I think, I divorce myself from personal emotions and consideration of others feelings (because when I think, I consider them to be unnecessary).  I am only as stubborn as anyone else who has bothered to try to reply to me and argue with me.  I resent being singled out for behavior that everyone is exhibiting simply because I am on "the wrong side of the argument".

As for being rude...  Yeah, I'm kind of a rude person.  You got me there.  More rude than is usual, anyway.  Though, I do find it hard to believe that "being rude" does not apply to some of these other posts as well, or even to times in your own individual lives.

So, here's what I propose:

We can start having an actual conversation about ellipsis again (as per the topic point), or we can simply end it here and I'll go back to doing the things I was doing instead.  Arguing semantics for me feels like busywork.  I have no interest in that.  When I asked for examples, I was honestly thinking the replies I would get would show ellipsis being used excessively, but also properly.  I did not expect to get all these arguments about the definitions of words and all this off topic nonsense.

Now, if we cannot agree to have that conversation, then I'll just leave the topic.  It's better that way.  Claim victory or whatever, doesn't matter.  Get the last word in if you like.  Discussion is over and we can all go back to doing more fun things.  If you require some kind of apology then I'll tell you "I'm Sorry" in the same fashion everyone else uses it.  As a means to quickly try to erase the bad situation and all discussion of it instead of actually being sorry.  But, I'll also be nice and tell you that I'm sorry I offended any of you.  It's easy to forget others are not as thick skinned as I am and can take lots of things personally that I never would.  My intent was never to offend.  My intent was to be somewhat silly, be somewhat informative, and to make silly jibes at people because that's kind of who I am.

My friends would all you tell you this about me:  If I didn't make fun of you, at least a little, without provocation, it means I don't like you at all.

So, if that's all, I'll be going.
 

Celianna

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Tai_MT please leave the topic, you offer no discussion here, merely starting arguments.
 

Sharm

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Yes, we are arguing semantics. No one ever disagreed with you on that, not sure why you're trying to act like we are. Arguing semantics is necessary in this case because your whole argument rested on those semantics. Also, you totally started it.


As for the being rude, it's because you're phrasing things in a very dismissive and aloof manner, like we're all stupider than you and deserved to be mocked for it. Has nothing to do with you arguing the other side. Just because you find being rude easy doesn't mean you have to be that way and it doesn't mean you won't be called out on it.


Everyone is arguing with you as if you were saying they mean the same thing because:

He actually says "unnecessary" at one point. Which, in turn, means, "incorrect usage". :D Thanks for playing though!
You did say exactly that. So yes, that's why we're arguing that.


I don't know that this discussion is silly. We're talking about how ellipses, even though they're being used properly, are having a negative effect on writing and how a person's RPG is viewed. It is not an discussion of facts, it's an discussion of opinion. In discussions of opinion facts and examples can be helpful but aren't always necessary. I don't think the OP does need to back up their opinion with examples. If you'd like to find some to help encourage the discussion that's fine, but I don't know that it would really add anything.


Edit: Sorry Celi, I was typing while you posted that.
 
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mlogan

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Ooooh! Giant wall of text telling me how wrong I am!!!! Wheee!!!

This is how I read the thread:

The original poster made an amusing post expressing frustration on the overuse of ellipsis. People (including you) joked around about it and began to post other grammatical irritations, maybe a slight bit of discussion on the usage of ellipsis, but really it was all in jest until Dragonspeech and YOU started throwing around the words "correct" and "incorrect".

We could just have the guy who hates the usage of it direct us to the actual usages of it... Or the article on Wikipedia that says all our usages of it are in fact, correct...
First time anyone was concerned about the "correct" usage. So all I did was fill your request of linking to the article and point out that the op never said anything about correct usage.

As Sharm points out, yes we are arguing semantics because YOU equated the two words to be the same with the challenge to me "wanna try again".

Rudeness - please tell me where I've been rude, if I have, because all I've been doing is providing the factual information you seem to want.

Offended - not offended at all. It would be silly to be offended over such a thing. I'm just baffled how you are the one saying two words are the same and yet keep telling us we are wrong for showing the words are not the same. Seems like basic logic to me.

And even though you aren't participating anymore, I am off to find correct and incorrect usages of ellipsis, because as far as I know, you can still read it.
 

Ms Littlefish

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I apologize if I've been rude at all. I stopped posting because I felt like I had run out of constructive things to say and didn't want to definitely become rude. :(
 

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A game is an interesting concept because it's a happy mix of written word (ex. novel) and visual/auditory speech (ex. movie). When someone pauses in their speech, it's pretty easy to identify in a movie or in a book. In a movie, you will simply hear the break in speech and see the actor pause. In a book, you will read that the character paused via narration or descriptive text. But in a video game that requires you to read the dialogue, it's a bit more challenging. You don't necessarily have the auditory and visual pause you get with a movie, and it looks awkward to see things like "- s/he paused -" or "*pause*" in written text. You could pause the text temporarily, close the dialogue box, use "wait x frames"  and so on. However, it's troublesome to use this with every pause - especially when the pauses are minor.

Ellipses can serve as a way to illustrate pause and to naturally break up the text in a way that reflects spoken dialogue. When it comes to character voice, grammar and (to some degree) spelling rules can be ignored and it can still be seen as proper and valid. Since almost all the text seen in a game is dialogue, some grammatical rules don't apply - or shouldn't be enforced as heavily. That said, igoring grammar and spelling only works when it's made clear to the player that it wasn't a mistake.

About the only thing I'd caution is to not use ellipses all the time, in every dialogue instance. Unless you want your character to sound like William Shatner, that is. :D
 

mlogan

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