Enemy HP bars

[Tsukihime]

@Hime - because most games, uses a damage pop-up which shows the damage number, not the percent damage.


And somehow even if we want to see visually the % damage, we prefer seeing it on bars while also seeing the actual damage number, rather than combining the ideas and turn the pop-up into a %damage pop-up.

Someone will implement percent popups and everyone else will be like "omg it was so simple" and everyone will then try t ocopy it.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

then players be like: "Where are the big numbers? We want to see 9999!"

 

[TheoAllen]

I'm talking about gauging the effectiveness of the individual attack, not to compare it with others. Because of course, a 1000 damage is more effective than 500. But is the 1000 effective enough?

It's more like "when the boss / enemy collapsed?" 

I do prefer bars than numbers, with bars it's easy to see. With numbers, you still need to do the math...

You dont actually. Or at least myself

When the damage shown up, let say, 300. And next damage is 500

I can tell 500 is the stronger damage.

I dont bother with the what is the exact number. I only focus in how many digits they have and what is the first number is?

Even the damage is 492, I would still count it around 400 even it's near to 500.

Bigger number give the player more feedback. And that could make them satisfied

Ok, if you prefer bars over number, the you certainly need longer HP bar for stronger enemy.

Because why? If you have a fierce attack / skill animations, and it's only reduce the HP bar for a little,

they will be like "meh". With the damage popup, they will still believe that their attack is still

strong enough. Just like you said

then players be like: "Where are the big numbers? We want to see 9999!"

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Someone will implement percent popups and everyone else will be like "omg it was so simple" and everyone will then try t ocopy it.

Happened many times

 

[bgillisp]

Someone will implement percent popups and everyone else will be like "omg it was so simple" and everyone will then try t ocopy it.

Actually, many will be like "What, I just did 46 HP?"

It may sound odd to say, but I've seen many people that don't understand what a % is, and would think that is just 46 HP damage, not 46% of total damage.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

Ok, if you prefer bars over number, the you certainly need longer HP bar for stronger enemy.

of course, probably why some games implement multiple HP bars for strong enemies.


Anyway, IMHO, the damage pop-up and the bar serves different purposes. The damage pop-up showing the actual damage is to see the actual damage value of each hit, the bar is for determining how many more attacks it will probably take before the enemy dies.


Though with a bar alone, you can achieve both. While with pop-ups alone, you cannot have the second unless you know exactly how much HP the enemy has.


I think I used a few wrong words with earlier posts. XD

 

[TheoAllen]

of course, probably why some games implement multiple HP bars for strong enemies.

Anyway, IMHO, the damage pop-up and the bar serves different purposes. The damage pop-up showing the actual damage is to see the actual damage value of each hit, the bar is for determining how many more attacks it will probably take before the enemy dies.

Though with a bar alone, you can achieve both. While with pop-ups alone, you cannot have the second unless you know exactly how much HP the enemy has.

I think I used a few wrong words with earlier posts. XD

To sum up...

I ever played startegy game. They use longer bar for stronger enemy.

Yeah, I could easily determine which is the stronger which is the weaker than using number.

I agree with you at this point.

But I dont think it's good to remove the damage popup.

Or have you ever played any game that only show the HP bar alone?

 

[Tsukihime]

then players be like: "Where are the big numbers? We want to see 9999!"

Here, more informative

Happened many times

Really? With the %?

But I dont think it's good to remove the damage popup.


Or have you ever played any game that only show the HP bar alone?

Yes. Granted the bar was long and segmented into pieces so you could just count how many pieces disappeared.


It's no different from zelda where you have some heart containers and you can see that you lost a heart....half a heart...etc

 

[TheoAllen]

 

Really? With the %?

Nope, not with %

But as far as I can see, a lot of RM dev usually try to imitate any games that they consider it cool.

(for example: our local RM dev started to use FTB when I was using it in my game).

Yes. Granted the bar was long and segmented into pieces so you could just count how many pieces disappeared.

It's no different from zelda where you have some heart containers and you can see that you lost a heart....half a heart...etc

Makes sense. They still countable even with 'bar' style

 

[Kes]

When the damage shown up, let say, 300. And next damage is 500

I can tell 500 is the stronger damage.

For some reason this crystallized for me what I think is one of the problems many players have with just numbers.

That 300 last time, 500 this time might work okay if you have one enemy in the troop, or all actors have single enemy skills/actions.  When you have bigger troops and you've used skills/actions which target more than one enemy, keeping track of which one has taken what amount of damage is more complicated, especially if the numbers come up quickly and you've barely time to register 2 or 3 let along 4 or 5 before the next action is being carried out, with its set of numbers.  Throw in variance, different elemental weakness and so on, and remembering over the course of the battle which enemy is now the weakest and can be got rid of more easily becomes much more difficult to remember.  HP bars, however, show you at a glance which enemy is weak/strong.

A second problem is that you have a variety of players.  Some people process information visually.  For them a bar works and numbers do not.  For some it's the other way around.  As devs we should be catering for both sorts, not just those who share our personal preference, unless we have a particular reason for restricting the demographic of our game.

 

[TheoAllen]

That 300 last time, 500 this time might work okay if you have one enemy in the troop, or all actors have single enemy skills/actions.  When you have bigger troops and you've used skills/actions which target more than one enemy, keeping track of which one has taken what amount of damage is more complicated, especially if the numbers come up quickly and you've barely time to register 2 or 3 let along 4 or 5 before the next action is being carried out, with its set of numbers.

Having the damage counter which has X total hit and Y damage delivered is always come in handy.

Also, some element resistances could be just gimmick. A skill which has great damage but the enemy resist could still stronger compared with normal attack because of the number shown.

which enemy is now the weakest and can be got rid of more easily becomes much more difficult to remember.  HP bars, however, show you at a glance which enemy is weak/strong.

This is indeed the purpose of the HP Bar, nothing to do with "which skill is stronger" I suppose.

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I only consider the enemy HP bar gives you less mystery when encounter enemies. You have no worry about the plan what should you do in next turn. While with no HP bar, you're forced to attack the enemy while you still need to keep yourself alive, yet you have no idea how longer you should survive. There's nothing wrong with this. As long as you can make them fair.

If you're going to hide the enemy HP bar for boss fight. The boss might have 10 remain HP and you attack him with 1000 damage, that's fine, player will never notice it.

 

[Eschaton]

Is the number from damage popup not enough?

I think it should be one or the other. Personally, I'd prefer bars, because I find pop-ups distracting.

 

[TheoAllen]

I think it should be one or the other. Personally, I'd prefer bars, because I find pop-ups distracting.

I agree if sometimes popups are distracting.

But it's the matter of position I guess

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

I think it should be one or the other.

IMHO, they can coexist. Especially when the purpose of those two are different anyways.

 

[Eschaton]

IMHO, they can coexist. Especially when the purpose of those two are different anyways.

I guess it depends. Some games have you unlock an enemy's health bar, and in such cases the player should indeed be informed as to how much damage they are doing.

However, in a game in which an enemy's health bar is always visible, that's all the indication as to how efficiently player is killing them that they need.

Of course, there is no accounting for taste.

 

[Milennin]

I only consider the enemy HP bar gives you less mystery when encounter enemies. You have no worry about the plan what should you do in next turn. While with no HP bar, you're forced to attack the enemy while you still need to keep yourself alive, yet you have no idea how longer you should survive. There's nothing wrong with this. As long as you can make them fair.

Wait, you say there is less planning in games that show HP bars than in games that don't? How does that even work? When you see the enemy's HP you can plan ahead accordingly, while without HP bars all you can do is keep every character in the party healthy and do damage until stuff eventually dies.


Also, I don't see how the player is forced to attack the enemy without HP bars... does that mean the player isn't forced to attack when he can see the enemy HP bars?

 

[TheoAllen]

Wait, you say there is less planning in games that show HP bars than in games that don't? How does that even work? When you see the enemy's HP you can plan ahead accordingly, while without HP bars all you can do is keep every character in the party healthy and do damage until stuff eventually dies.

Also, I don't see how the player is forced to attack the enemy without HP bars... does that mean the player isn't forced to attack when he can see the enemy HP bars?

I'm not saying less planning

I just say you can easily decide the what you gonna do in next turn (or I was using the wrong words?)

Also there's while

When the enemy HP depleted near to the death, you can decide that you dont need to heal your party.

Without HP bar, it's still mystery if the enemy is near to the death or not. So you still keep heal your party to prepare for the worst.

The 'art' of without HP bar is the art to survive without known how much damage taken by the enemy / boss. And how much their remain HP

But that doesnt mean without HP bar is better. All still depends.

In my game, I hid the HP bar only for bosses. And that could give you thrill more when you're going to fight the boss. You had no idea when the boss going to collapse and you will plan more to make the next shoot because the future is unknown. And when the boss defeated, you could started to think, "Man, I havent release my ultimate move, but the boss is already dead" or even "Oh well, that was close".

 

[Milennin]

The 'art' of without HP bar is the art to survive without known how much damage taken by the enemy / boss. And how much their remain HP


But that doesnt mean without HP bar is better. All still depends.

What I mean is that you don't change your strategy when you don't see enemy HP bars because you can't plan ahead.

 

[TheoAllen]

What I mean is that you don't change your strategy when you don't see enemy HP bars because you can't plan ahead.

Nope, I changed the strategy. Tested in my own game.

Enemy with HP bar and without HP bar are quite different

With HP bar, area attack is preferable, or at least when you know all of the enemies going to die.

Without HP bar, strong single attack is preferable, since dont know when the enemy going to die then you focused to attack on the single target.

 

[Milennin]

I don't think you know what I'm talking about, so let me give a basic example:


-Boss with HP bar is nearing death: You plan your party to go all-out to spike down his last bit of HP. A good climax to a tough fight.


-Boss without HP bar is nearing death: You continue playing the same way you did the rest of the boss fight. Then, suddenly the boss dies.

 

[TheoAllen]

I don't think you know what I'm talking about, so let me give a basic example:

-Boss with HP bar is nearing death: You plan your party to go all-out to spike down his last bit of HP. A good climax to a tough fight.

-Boss without HP bar is nearing death: You continue playing the same way you did the rest of the boss fight. Then, suddenly the boss dies.

The 'art' of without HP bar is the art to survive without known how much damage taken by the enemy / boss. And how much their remain HP

But that doesnt mean without HP bar is better. All still depends.