Equipment fused with spells.

[Dark_Metamorphosis]

So I've tried some different mechanics when playing around with the quipment progression for my game and realized that my current systems comes with some flaws. My inital idea was to have a smithing system that would work well with my sidequests and also include specific smithing quests that would grant you items usable in upgrading your gear (so that there is another option than mining materials outside in the world, for people that doesnt find that interesting). As to upgrading the gear I would use old weapons + smithing materials in order to make new tiers of equipment, tier 3 being the final. 

As I had a setback with how my spell shops worked, and I sort of made a system that could be a bit confusing and that could miss the oppurtunity for the player to get a specific spell when it was desperately needed I decided to see if I could find something that would work better. That's when I came up with an idea to combine the smithing with learning and upgrading spells.

I thought I could use the equipment as a source for learning spells and have them being fused with spells that the player has to use in order to fully learn them. If the player remove a equipment with a certain spell in it before they have fully learned it the spell will be removed from the spell list. A weapon can hold up to three different spells as maximum, and the gear can be upgraded in order to get new tiers of spells that will have new effects than before. 

As I started to implement the system I thought I could see if there could be any potential problems with such a system from an outside audience and see if people would find such a system interesting. 

I will list some things that I have had in mind myself:

• If you switch a weapon before the spell is learned, there would be an issue when you find an upgrade since that spell would disappear from the list, forcing you to use a worse weapon. I have thought to implement several weapons that holds the same skills, but has different kinds of bonuses and that would add a specific new skill for that weapon, in order to prevent this.
• Upgrading the weapons will be fairly hassle free since there will be several options to get the materials needed.
• The biggest problem I can see, could be that the player might miss a skill that they might need for specifc bosses, the only way I could go around this is that the spell in question will just turn the tide for the battle in a more efficient way if you have that spell.
• The player will be able to change items in battle, allowing them to equip other weapons to use skills on the get-go in case they havn't fully learned the skill yet. 
• Puting spells in other equipments than weapons would benefit the player more efficiently when it comes to the freedom of switching weapons around.
• Having required levels for upgrading specifc gear would also help with the game-flow, and inform the player that they are able to get new equipment from the smith every time they hit the level needed.

So from an outsider point of view, can you see any major problems that could occur with such a system, and if so can you think of a way to go around it?

Would much appreciate any input on this!

Thanks!

 

[TygerBurnz]

thi sousnds vaguely like the system in FFIX where itmes taught certain spells...

 

[Evalis]

That depends on how they learn the skill. If they do so just by fighting monsters, then at least one issue I see is players handicapping themselves with worse weapons for better (or different) spells. If that is an intended consequence, then so be it. Just thought I should point that out

If they do so by using the skill however, the player is likely going to be spending a great number of turns performing useless activities, like poisoning the same enemy repeatedly, or healing themselves at full(or near) health. That's going to be more annoying that it might be fun.

You mentioned the spell 'disappears' if they unequip too early. I presume this is some sort of bug. However, an equally annoying occurance would be to have the skill points earned disappear if they swapped in a different item, even if they could still learn the spell, earning the points again would seem like wasted effort.

As far as boss fights are concerned, if a certain skill or certain set of skills are needed (lets say heal spells) they shouldn't be missable. What I mean by that.. is that if you want to place the mandatory item in the same dungeon then go for it, but if that item (skill) is required for another boss in a different dungeon, it should be made available again.

One final weird problem.. is that some skills are ill-suited to different classes (depending on how you have it set up). Warriors will just be wasting their time learning offensive magic if damage is not based on attack power, and the player should either have different gear options (weapons that improve warrior matk in line with mages) or be discouraged from learning poor skills for their role.

 

[Dark_Metamorphosis]

thi sousnds vaguely like the system in FFIX where itmes taught certain spells...

I guess you can draw that comparisson ye, even though it works a bit different involving smithing and upgrading the weapons to new tiers. If you find that I have stolen the idea from FFIX I guess you are allowed to think so, but I know script systems that are built around a specific system that already exists, but with a few tweaks. So I can't see the problem.

That depends on how they learn the skill. If they do so just by fighting monsters, then at least one issue I see is players handicapping themselves with worse weapons for better (or different) spells. If that is an intended consequence, then so be it. Just thought I should point that out 

Yeah, that's why I was thinking to include off-hands or accessories that will have no stats, but certain spells fused with them too so the player has options if they want to keep their current weapon.

If they do so by using the skill however, the player is likely going to be spending a great number of turns performing useless activities, like poisoning the same enemy repeatedly, or healing themselves at full(or near) health. That's going to be more annoying that it might be fun.

Yeah, that's true. That's why I'm thinking about using battles as as means to learn the spells instead. but you need to have the equipment attached to you in order to get the spell to level up. As it is now I'm using spell casts in order to level it up but I see your point about that.

You mentioned the spell 'disappears' if they unequip too early. I presume this is some sort of bug. However, an equally annoying occurance would be to have the skill points earned disappear if they swapped in a different item, even if they could still learn the spell, earning the points again would seem like wasted effort.

No, Its not a bug since It's intended. If you unequip the item that holds the spell before learning it, it will disappear but you will still keep the points. In case you equip an item with the spell again, it will reappear and the same points will be attached to it.

As far as boss fights are concerned, if a certain skill or certain set of skills are needed (lets say heal spells) they shouldn't be missable. What I mean by that.. is that if you want to place the mandatory item in the same dungeon then go for it, but if that item (skill) is required for another boss in a different dungeon, it should be made available again.

Yes there will be several ways to obtain each spells, not just from a single item (In case Its a unique one, but mandatory skills like heals etc will not be).

One final weird problem.. is that some skills are ill-suited to different classes (depending on how you have it set up). Warriors will just be wasting their time learning offensive magic if damage is not based on attack power, and the player should either have different gear options (weapons that improve warrior matk in line with mages) or be discouraged from learning poor skills for their role.

All equipments are based on the actors, so everyone has their unique type of equipment.

Thanks for the reply

 

[lysnia]

• If you switch a weapon before the spell is learned, there would be an issue when you find an upgrade since that spell would disappear from the list, forcing you to use a worse weapon. I have thought to implement several weapons that holds the same skills, but has different kinds of bonuses and that would add a specific new skill for that weapon, in order to prevent this.

If the weapon is not "too worse", I don't see any problem with it. A little less DPS or stat boost is an okay price to finish learning the skill - in the long run, that is more beneficial. Although it seems smithing is the central point, should the player expect that using a worse equipment cause them to lose againt a boss, or skills are still more relevant in survival?

If so, it's probably better to go with your second idea to duplicate some skills on the next upgrade weapon or on accessories, as long as the skill points that went into learning the skill don't disappear when you de-equip them (I'm just making an assumption on skill points, could be usage number too). It would take a few test runs to make a guesstimate which skills you'd need to duplicate.

• The biggest problem I can see, could be that the player might miss a skill that they might need for specifc bosses, the only way I could go around this is that the spell in question will just turn the tide for the battle in a more efficient way if you have that spell.

Have to agree with Evalis here, if it's needed for the boss, make sure the player can't skip it. If it's not needed, but nice to have, maybe hint at what the player should be looking for while crafting (stupid example: maybe it's common knowledge that an enemy really hates the dark and the player just happens to know the recipe for a weapon that teaches a blinding spell - which turns out to be super effective against that enemy).

More questions:

- Do you need to spend a lot of materials or just a small amount if you switch your spells around your equipment (as you mentioned to get benefits from in-combat swaps)? Can the player experiment freely without fear of running out of materials in the middle of a dungeon before a boss or do they have to be tactical about it?

- You said upgrades are hassle-free and players can get materials from several sources, but are these finite or inifinite? (I assume infinite by respawning nodes, monster drops, bought from shops etc.) Can the players work themselves into a corner or is there always a chance of fixing their mistakes without grinding/spending too much time hunting nodes (anti-frustation feature)?

It might look like FFIX's system at first, but the twist of being able to switch spells around is a nice touch Really like it, opens up a lot of possible ways for customisation.

 

[Dark_Metamorphosis]

...

 Although it seems smithing is the central point, should the player expect that using a worse equipment cause them to lose againt a boss, or skills are still more relevant in survival?

I would say Its a combination, but I do think that having weapons with duplicate spells available to them (spells you recently found a while before you recieve the new weapon) or other means of equipment to switch out for better stats while keeping the oppurtunity to learn the spell in question, would be the best choice to go for.

 Do you need to spend a lot of materials or just a small amount if you switch your spells around your equipment (as you mentioned to get benefits from in-combat swaps)? Can the player experiment freely without fear of running out of materials in the middle of a dungeon before a boss or do they have to be tactical about it?

The materials themselves are not needed in order to swap your weapon and gear around, thats done freely inside the battle-menu. The materials are needed when you visit the blacksmith to upgrade or craft new equipment. So once you have the weapons or equipment you can freely swap them around whenever you want. The positive side about learning the skills though is that you dont need an item with the spell fused to it allowing you to swap items without having to worry about loosing any spells, and use items that benefits the fight the most, or even use the items that fits your playstyle the most. 

You said upgrades are hassle-free and players can get materials from several sources, but are these finite or inifinite? (I assume infinite by respawning nodes, monster drops, bought from shops etc.) Can the players work themselves into a corner or is there always a chance of fixing their mistakes without grinding/spending too much time hunting nodes (anti-frustation feature)?

Yes they are more or less infinite. Mining and component quests will be available in a cycle and respawn, mining sources (veins) will be available in the world and respawn after some time after mining them. I have also thought to have a npc that will smelt the weapons to get some of the used materials back once you are done with it.

I hope I will be able to work this out into a nice state, but I do have a backup plan in case it doesn't work out. Just wanted to see what ppl thought about the idea and if they could see any drastic problems that could occur with such a system.

Thanks for the reply!