Expectations?

Emeraq

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I recently caved in and purchased RPG Maker MV and also downloaded JavaScript for dummies :) I have the plot and story nearly complete and planned out. However, I would like for some feedback in regards to what people expect in a low magic classic fantasy themed rpg maker game intended for commercial release? What are your absolute must haves? What are your absolute stay the heck away from having in the game?
 
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cliche plot, default system, default graphics. a whole new overhaul of what u must have, on commercial games if people see rpg maker styled game, people will say how bad it is and not even buy it or even play. get play testers to play yer game, help with the writing (grammar, spelling, puncuations) and help with bugs or crashes. Can't think of anything else I know there is more.
 

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I've moved this thread to General Discussion. Please be sure to post your threads in the correct forum next time. Thank you.


What is expected in a good game should have nothing to do with whether it's commercial or free.  For example, all the things mentioned by Chibi are things I would expect in a free game, too.  If it's buggy or the writing style, spelling, grammar, punctuation, are bad, I'm not going to play it.
 
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Tai_MT

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I recently caved in and purchased RPG Maker MV and also downloaded JavaScript for dummies :) I have the plot and story nearly complete and planned out. However, I would like for some feedback in regards to what people expect in a low magic classic fantasy themed rpg maker game intended for commercial release? What are your absolute must haves? What are your absolute stay the heck away from having in the game?


If a setting is "Low magic", I generally anticipate "high science" in return.  Something that fills out the roles of the combat a bit more and makes the world make more sense.  Intellectuals in high magic settings practice magic...  in low magic settings, they play with science.  That's just the nature of humanity and civilizations.  So, I expect some of the characters to be tossing around Molotov cocktails and other things.  I just expect something to kind of fill the role of what magic users should be.


For me, however, the absolute "must have" in any game is simply a fantastic story that grabs me and holds me.  I'm looking for what I call a "4 a.m. game" when I pick up an RPG.  That means, it's a game I can't put down because I am so engrossed in it, in the lore, in the story, in the characters, and in the gameplay.  The last one of these I've played was "Mass Effect".  So, it's been a while.  I'm not sure others desire that from their RPGs or not, but it's what I desire in an RPG.  I also desire a kind of original or unique story.  It doesn't have to be completely new, but a new spin on an old story is enough to grab me.  I get tired of "kill the big bad, unite the land, collect the McGuffins to do it, win the game".  I mean, you can do that, but I like a unique spin on it if you do.  A simple spin on it that would catch me would simply be "you don't know who the big bad is" and part of the story is to figure out who the actual enemy is that you're saving the world from.  That's enough to grab my attention.  Especially if you play up the "mystery" of it and have several people who it could possibly be with their own crazy agendas to keep me guessing.


Beyond that...  I'm not sure there's a "must avoid" except maybe systems thrown in for the sake of throwing them in (like crafting systems...  Everyone has a freakin' crafting system and most are so boring to tinker with... Mehhhhhhhh).  Avoid throwing things into your game because you think they're cool.  If it's in your game, you invest time and effort into it to make it fun.  You playtest the crap out of it to make sure it's fun.  If it's not fun...  Drop the system entirely.  I'd rather a system be missing than be boring.


Does that help at all?
 

Emeraq

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Yes Tai_MT that was more of the type of answer I was looking for. On the topic of deep gripping story I agree, I'm a story person myself but I also want to allow some freedom for the player to play the game how they want, a little sandboxy if you will, but to allow them to do so without dismissing the main story entirely. Something that doesn't force them to play it, yet make them aware that it's going to progress at certain points and if they choose at that time to ignore it, there's no going back. I'm tossing around some ideas on how to accomplish the main story progressing in the background even when the player decides to go off on a tangent, and allowing them to 'hear' about what they missed, but also allow them to get back on that story path later on. This might tick some players off, but it's never made sense to me how certain events in games seem pressing and time sensitive yet the main character roams for hours or days, which in the game world could be weeks, months or a year etc, without progressing the main story until the player decides to.. Take Skyrim for example, I've hit 40 on a couple of occassions before I heeded the greybeards summons, and it just makes little sense to me that they'd still be waiting for me after all that time lol


You mentioned not throwing systems in for the sake of having them, and I can respect that, but that's going to be something that's hard to measure. IE: Crafting, a lot of folks like it. Or take a junctioning system as found in FF8, many loved it but on the other hand many hated it.  You mentioned what you didn't like but what systems do you like?
 

Tai_MT

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Yes Tai_MT that was more of the type of answer I was looking for. On the topic of deep gripping story I agree, I'm a story person myself but I also want to allow some freedom for the player to play the game how they want, a little sandboxy if you will, but to allow them to do so without dismissing the main story entirely. Something that doesn't force them to play it, yet make them aware that it's going to progress at certain points and if they choose at that time to ignore it, there's no going back. I'm tossing around some ideas on how to accomplish the main story progressing in the background even when the player decides to go off on a tangent, and allowing them to 'hear' about what they missed, but also allow them to get back on that story path later on. This might tick some players off, but it's never made sense to me how certain events in games seem pressing and time sensitive yet the main character roams for hours or days, which in the game world could be weeks, months or a year etc, without progressing the main story until the player decides to.. Take Skyrim for example, I've hit 40 on a couple of occassions before I heeded the greybeards summons, and it just makes little sense to me that they'd still be waiting for me after all that time lol


You mentioned not throwing systems in for the sake of having them, and I can respect that, but that's going to be something that's hard to measure. IE: Crafting, a lot of folks like it. Or take a junctioning system as found in FF8, many loved it but on the other hand many hated it.  You mentioned what you didn't like but what systems do you like?


If you're looking for a decent system for "progressing story events", you might try using variables or timers.  Fallout 1 had an in-game timer for completing the main mission and if you didn't, you generally lost the game.  But, there were ways to extend the time limit so you could level up a bit more, or explore some more.  At some point, I think the timer disappears (I've never gotten very far in the game, controls without a manual are too archaic for me to have patience learning at this point) and it lets you accomplish things in a much broader scope as you like, so long as certain mission objectives were completed first.  I'm not sure how most players feel about a "timer" for events (as a general rule, most players don't like time limits in games, especially if there's a lot of exploration and such to do), but you could also substitute a simple system that tracks say a variable and certain things you do increase it or lower it, and the higher it gets, the further the story progresses.  Though, you'd have to put in "lower limits" so the story couldn't go backwards, ha ha.


Crafting for the sake of crafting bothers me.  Here's my issue with crafting most of the time:  It's usually wholly unnecessary to the entire game... except for creating the best gear you can obtain.  It's typically useless beyond that.  Even worse, a lot of what you can craft isn't even a "side-grade" to equipment you can buy or have obtained in a dungeon.  Most of the stuff you can craft is basically worthless by the time you can craft it.  Or, if it's not, the materials require so much grinding to obtain enough of them, that you've just bogged your game down with unnecessary play times for the sake of "balancing" crafted gear against monster dropped and shop purchased gear.  Frankly, I've yet to run into any crafting system I've liked because the gear it creates is either so worthless by the time you can create it to not warrant crafting... or requires so many materials to make that it turns the game into a slog as I kill 100 bunnies for 10 Fluffy Tails that I need to make "Shoes of Lupine Quickness".  For me, it just gets ridiculous.  Some players enjoy the grind of a video game, I do not.  Before I had a job, a social life, bills to pay, chores to do, meals to make, etcetera, I wouldn't have minded a bit of grind in a game (I used to play Runescape, after all), but I just don't have time for that.  At least in a Fallout or Elder Scrolls game, I can decide to grind or not to grind.  Either play method is valuable in its own way and doesn't really change the difficulty of the game.  So, if I have a free Saturday with nothing to do, I might grind out 5 levels in Fallout 4 just for the sake of the Perks.  But, if I don't have a free Saturday, I might instead run a few of the main quests or explore a location, then save, and turn my game off, and I'd still have accomplished something that made me of equal power to those Perks.


Things I do like in games...  Generally, I like anything that is fully fleshed out and doesn't feel like it's some kind of "brick wall".  I also like things that give me options.  From MMOs I like clothing and color options (being able to color my armor how I want, as intricately as I want, is something I enjoy).  I also like having a lot of build options in MMOs (in general, if there is one "overpowered build" available, or only a couple was to build a class, I don't play that MMO.  I want to be how I want to play and still be powerful the way I want to play).  From RPGs I generally enjoy battle systems that don't require me to mash attack or the strongest spell/skill I have to win every fight...  I'm partial to a little depth in combat.  If you have a "on the map" encounter system, I'm partial to what Earthbound did with its system.  Enemies run away if you're too strong, or touching them when you're too strong results in an instant-win without having to actually go into battle.  I also liked the "can be snuck up on" and "can sneak up on" mechanics in that game as well.  I also like the battle systems from Secret of Mana and Secret of Evermore (Evermore had a fantastic magic system I also liked, where you got ingredients and spells could level up as well).  Um... I like Job/Class systems, though I haven't seen one done well since Final Fantasy 5...  I like being able to customize gear (like say socketing runes or gems or whatever to give added effects), so long as it's not done in the fashion of FFX.  I like lots of loot, but I don't like having the vast majority of it being worthless (Borderlands 2 is my example for this... once you have greens, there's no reason to ever look at a white again, because none of them are as powerful or useful as a green...  Borderlands 1 did this better, since you always looked over your loot due to the possibility of low tier stuff actually being much better than high tier stuff if the roll went well.  Borderlands 2 leads to a lot of loot on the ground that isn't even looked at, which I hate.).


I dunno, I like a lot of different things.  Most of what I like, I enjoy because it was executed well at some point and endeared me to it.


All I mean by "don't implement systems for the sake of implementing them" is that you shouldn't put it in because "people think this is fun".  You need to include it because it serves a purpose in your game world.  A purpose that players will be revisiting or interacting with often, because it is so much a part of that game and not just some random thing tacked on because you thought it needed to be in there since people think it's fun.


I'll use the argument I use against including most mini-games into an RPG as an example.  "Oh, sweet, I can play Poker in this Shooter!"  "Um... if you wanted to play Poker, why didn't you just save the game and load up your disc of Poker instead?".  Kind of understand what I mean now?
 

Emeraq

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If you're looking for a decent system for "progressing story events", you might try using variables or timers.  Fallout 1 had an in-game timer for completing the main mission and if you didn't, you generally lost the game.  But, there were ways to extend the time limit so you could level up a bit more, or explore some more.  At some point, I think the timer disappears (I've never gotten very far in the game, controls without a manual are too archaic for me to have patience learning at this point) and it lets you accomplish things in a much broader scope as you like, so long as certain mission objectives were completed first.  I'm not sure how most players feel about a "timer" for events (as a general rule, most players don't like time limits in games, especially if there's a lot of exploration and such to do), but you could also substitute a simple system that tracks say a variable and certain things you do increase it or lower it, and the higher it gets, the further the story progresses.  Though, you'd have to put in "lower limits" so the story couldn't go backwards, ha ha.


Crafting for the sake of crafting bothers me.  Here's my issue with crafting most of the time:  It's usually wholly unnecessary to the entire game... except for creating the best gear you can obtain.  It's typically useless beyond that.  Even worse, a lot of what you can craft isn't even a "side-grade" to equipment you can buy or have obtained in a dungeon.  Most of the stuff you can craft is basically worthless by the time you can craft it.  Or, if it's not, the materials require so much grinding to obtain enough of them, that you've just bogged your game down with unnecessary play times for the sake of "balancing" crafted gear against monster dropped and shop purchased gear.  Frankly, I've yet to run into any crafting system I've liked because the gear it creates is either so worthless by the time you can create it to not warrant crafting... or requires so many materials to make that it turns the game into a slog as I kill 100 bunnies for 10 Fluffy Tails that I need to make "Shoes of Lupine Quickness".  For me, it just gets ridiculous.  Some players enjoy the grind of a video game, I do not.  Before I had a job, a social life, bills to pay, chores to do, meals to make, etcetera, I wouldn't have minded a bit of grind in a game (I used to play Runescape, after all), but I just don't have time for that.  At least in a Fallout or Elder Scrolls game, I can decide to grind or not to grind.  Either play method is valuable in its own way and doesn't really change the difficulty of the game.  So, if I have a free Saturday with nothing to do, I might grind out 5 levels in Fallout 4 just for the sake of the Perks.  But, if I don't have a free Saturday, I might instead run a few of the main quests or explore a location, then save, and turn my game off, and I'd still have accomplished something that made me of equal power to those Perks.


Things I do like in games...  Generally, I like anything that is fully fleshed out and doesn't feel like it's some kind of "brick wall".  I also like things that give me options.  From MMOs I like clothing and color options (being able to color my armor how I want, as intricately as I want, is something I enjoy).  I also like having a lot of build options in MMOs (in general, if there is one "overpowered build" available, or only a couple was to build a class, I don't play that MMO.  I want to be how I want to play and still be powerful the way I want to play).  From RPGs I generally enjoy battle systems that don't require me to mash attack or the strongest spell/skill I have to win every fight...  I'm partial to a little depth in combat.  If you have a "on the map" encounter system, I'm partial to what Earthbound did with its system.  Enemies run away if you're too strong, or touching them when you're too strong results in an instant-win without having to actually go into battle.  I also liked the "can be snuck up on" and "can sneak up on" mechanics in that game as well.  I also like the battle systems from Secret of Mana and Secret of Evermore (Evermore had a fantastic magic system I also liked, where you got ingredients and spells could level up as well).  Um... I like Job/Class systems, though I haven't seen one done well since Final Fantasy 5...  I like being able to customize gear (like say socketing runes or gems or whatever to give added effects), so long as it's not done in the fashion of FFX.  I like lots of loot, but I don't like having the vast majority of it being worthless (Borderlands 2 is my example for this... once you have greens, there's no reason to ever look at a white again, because none of them are as powerful or useful as a green...  Borderlands 1 did this better, since you always looked over your loot due to the possibility of low tier stuff actually being much better than high tier stuff if the roll went well.  Borderlands 2 leads to a lot of loot on the ground that isn't even looked at, which I hate.).


I dunno, I like a lot of different things.  Most of what I like, I enjoy because it was executed well at some point and endeared me to it.


All I mean by "don't implement systems for the sake of implementing them" is that you shouldn't put it in because "people think this is fun".  You need to include it because it serves a purpose in your game world.  A purpose that players will be revisiting or interacting with often, because it is so much a part of that game and not just some random thing tacked on because you thought it needed to be in there since people think it's fun.


I'll use the argument I use against including most mini-games into an RPG as an example.  "Oh, sweet, I can play Poker in this Shooter!"  "Um... if you wanted to play Poker, why didn't you just save the game and load up your disc of Poker instead?".  Kind of understand what I mean now?
Been busy and just recently read this and intended to respond... Anyhow upon considering your comments about crafting systems, although I do believe they are a great system for a sandbox, I have come to the conclusion that a full crafting system will not work with the "Timed Progression Story System" that I have in mind. But perhaps an item enhancement system would be doable as in theory it should require less time than completely crafting the item from the ground up.


In regards to mini-games I've also never been a big fan of them unless the mini-game has some significant baring on the story. Things like racing or gambling, although potentially fun, they aren't the reason you are playing the game. However, if you need to beat someone in order to get some needed information, and accomplish a main goal, I can see allowing that.
 

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