Experience and leveling

[plubic_void21]

hello, thanks for stopping by. I'm new to the RPG scenario so forgive me for any stupid questions/ topics I may or may not have asked or mention.

I'm currently working on my first commercial project and came across a game development question; those gameplay questions you ask yourself while developing your game(s). I know that most RPG center around leveling and Experience, but they also call for grinding and number progression - in my game, your class and character is very important, so how you equip them and send them to battle is the main thought of the game. Think of it like Cup head, it's a boss rush sorta game with regular levels in-between if the player wants to.

My question is, would it be best to implement the experience and leveling system so that, leveling up's real importance is allowing players to unlock new weapon tiers, or remove it all together and have the player forge, find and buy weapons to upgrade their characters?

sorry for the long run of nonsense...I go on tangents way too much.

 

[lianderson]

Both of those options are perfectly viable. But to be honest, no one can answer that question, except you. I wish I could say more to help you, but I don't think much more can be said, especially without a demo or more information.

That said, good luck on your game, and I'm sure you'll find out what to do in time.

 

[bgillisp]

You could always do it where level ups give you small improvements which will add up slowly, and you can unlock more weapon tiers after each battle. That might work.

Otherwise I'd say make the game first. Until I had my story done I just threw random numbers into the system for levels and EXP, and once the game was done I went back and polished them into something decent. Sure, it meant my first run I had no idea what numbers to give bosses, so a lot of times I just set all the numbers to 1 so I could win that fight and proceed with the story. But it worked.

 

[Kes]

@plubic_void21 Just a heads up to say that 'Game Mechanics Design' is not for discussing an individual, specific game, though of course people can use their own game as an example. Therefore, to keep the conversation general, people can reply here in a way which might be relevant to your interests, or might not. However, as long as it's on-topic, its okay to post that reply.

I am just mentioning this in case you see answers which don't directly address your particular needs, but which are looking at this aspect of game play in a more conceptual way.

 

[zephar123]

I feel the trick with a leveling system is to have it where as long as the user is doing all or most the content you have laid out that he will be the level he needs to be. This keeps it from being a grind.
edit and you still have levels involved.
On characters being able to make though own weapons. I personally feel why not do both?

 

[plubic_void21]

Both of those options are perfectly viable. But to be honest, no one can answer that question, except you. I wish I could say more to help you, but I don't think much more can be said, especially without a demo or more information.

That said, good luck on your game, and I'm sure you'll find out what to do in time.

That's a perfectly okay answer, Thanks for replying, it still helped.

Otherwise I'd say make the game first. Until I had my story done I just threw random numbers into the system for levels and EXP, and once the game was done I went back and polished them into something decent. Sure, it meant my first run I had no idea what numbers to give bosses, so a lot of times I just set all the numbers to 1 so I could win that fight and proceed with the story. But it worked.

I would've done that, but the mechanics are the main sellers here, trying to be more gameplay focus - target audience rules and all that.

 

[plubic_void21]

@plubic_void21 Just a heads up to say that 'Game Mechanics Design' is not for discussing an individual, specific game, though of course people can use their own game as an example. Therefore, to keep the conversation general, people can reply here in a way which might be relevant to your interests, or might not. However, as long as it's on-topic, its okay to post that reply.

I am just mentioning this in case you see answers which don't directly address your particular needs, but which are looking at this aspect of game play in a more conceptual way.

Thanks for the heads up, I wasn't sure where else to post it, and I just wanted a general feedback.

 

[lokirafael]

Based in the description of the kind of game I would do a small level up mechanic (10 lvs +-) and make each level up count toward the character customization.

 

[plubic_void21]

I feel the trick with a leveling system is to have it where as long as the user is doing all or most the content you have laid out that he will be the level he needs to be. This keeps it from being a grind.
edit and you still have levels involved.
On characters being able to make though own weapons. I personally feel why not do both?

more work? XD

but in all seriousness, I did consider both but it would be conflicting per say "someone wanted to create a place in the game for battle only content, then players will see that place as somewhere to grind and level up, which would undermine the purpose of that mechanic"

Based in the description of the kind of game I would do a small level up mechanic (10 lvs +-) and make each level up count toward the character customization.

That may work, that way I could implement both, as mention by lianderson and zephar123, Thank you. It would still undermine the mechanic mentioned above, but for only a short while, and that way it could be used to introduce the player said, mechanics.

 

[AcosmicDevi]

more work? XD

but in all seriousness, I did consider both but it would be conflicting per say "someone wanted to create a place in the game for battle only content, then players will see that place as somewhere to grind and level up, which would undermine the purpose of that mechanic"

The law of diminishing returns would fix that. The amount of experience given by an enemy would reach a point where it would be too small to achieve the next level without grinding for hours at a time, so most people will stop at that point.

However, I've also played games where enemies stop giving exp once the player hit a certain level, so that's another way you could prevent grinding.

 

[Sauteed_Onion]

Ok, I played this one final fantasy game I think it was 13, and to me that is one of the worst types of level progressing you can shoot for. I think if somebody wants to grind in a game they bought, they should be able to, whether it be because they want to be over powered for an area or if they can't figure out a puzzle or some other thing that is limiting progression for them, they can still at least go grind up some levels in the mean time.

I want to say Final Fantasy XIII is the worst game I can remember playing recently. I'm sure there are worse games, but it was among the worst of all time I've ever played imo. And I'm not saying that cause the internet said so, I bought the game and was just blown away on core levels about how stupid that thing turned out. Like millions of dollars spent on.. that? Give me a break man. And I don't think I liked any of the characters, at all. I almost thought that would be their last Final Fantasy Game, and then that FFXIV game came out and sucked so hard it had to get remade.. and yeah, I should be quiet, this isn't a final fantasy gripe thread..

Back to point, if you want to do something like a 'talent tree', from say World of Warcraft or whatever else, that would be neat. I think Skyrim did something like that, but I didn't really care too much for it. Like imagine hack and slashing your way through the game with blacksmith as the only thing you leveled up. Skyrim didn't suck by any means, I just kind of wonder what they thought when they made the leveling system the way they did. Maybe every level or 3 you can get a point to invest in a path of unlocking certain weapon types, or even dual wielding, or learning to use your shield as a type of weapon, shield slams or even spiked bucklers or poisoned barbs on your shield to inflict status ailments. Another game I really enjoyed (along with like 90% of the gaming public) was Fallout -- the original-- one, it had a skill system, that allowed you to focus on small arms, big guns, and energy weapons. And within each of those branches were different kinds of weapons. So maybe within your own game, try having a branching path like that, then maybe extra specializing into specific weapons in that tree.. so they would be good at all types in a given path of weapons, but REALLY REALLY good with a specific weapon in that grouping.

As far as stats, and hit points and all that, I kind of feel like there is some underlying reason that people don't deviate from that system, (mostly because it works for lots of folks), and it is actually pretty simple to understand so entry level players can get a quick grasp of the concept of all that. If you don't mind the benefits/risk/issues of being a niche game, maybe consider alternate methods of measuring physical capabilities. You never know, you might just make the next big thing in video game pioneering. I'm staying relatively simple for my own game, but I may reach out and try something different in the future (way distant future perhaps). Anyhow I hope my rambling and meowiness has helped you in some way. Meow.

 

[mauvebutterfly]

People like seeing stats increase as they level, but many games balance this poorly with gear progression. If you want equipment to be a bigger focus than levellig, I would recommend simply making the gains for gear bigger than the gains for leveling.

For instance, every level might give +2 attack, but every tier of gear gives +20. This way levelling still gives the feeling of progression, but gear feels really important. Also it's a really simple thing to implement, which is an understated bonus in and of itself. Many of the most memorable RPGs that I've played have far fewer than the 8 stats used in RPG Maker by default. Often, less is more.

 

[kovak]

Actually you can do both.
You can consider leveling by adding perks to unlock new weapon tiers to equip and also perks to boost your actors as well.
Forging must allow you to make something better than what's sold in the game's shop but not too OP to the point where end game items you find becomes as strong as the ones you've made unless it's intended.

 

[Tsukunex]

Well I do not see why you can't do both - leveling is always an element I look forward to as it can give you an edge. As for your personal game mechanics, why not make the class/weapon aspect provide an edge when battling the troop in question? Essentially, this formula works well for x troop, however you can still beat the troop without said formula (it's just much harder).

In my own game that is currently under development, I am using a standard leveling system until I finish fleshing out the database. Then testing it to see if the current stats in place are adequate. When concerning weapon upgrades, I am requiring players to have beat a certain boss and collect a various drops via quest in order to unlock it. The weapon upgrade provides certain buffs and elemental advantages over certain enemies. However, it is not required. Though if you hope to kill a certain boss, you might need them/it.

 

[plubic_void21]

Back to point, if you want to do something like a 'talent tree', from say World of Warcraft or whatever else, that would be neat. I think Skyrim did something like that, but I didn't really care too much for it. Like imagine hack and slashing your way through the game with blacksmith as the only thing you leveled up. Skyrim didn't suck by any means, I just kind of wonder what they thought when they made the leveling system the way they did. Maybe every level or 3 you can get a point to invest in a path of unlocking certain weapon types, or even dual wielding, or learning to use your shield as a type of weapon, shield slams or even spiked bucklers or poisoned barbs on your shield to inflict status ailments. Another game I really enjoyed (along with like 90% of the gaming public) was Fallout -- the original-- one, it had a skill system, that allowed you to focus on small arms, big guns, and energy weapons. And within each of those branches were different kinds of weapons. So maybe within your own game, try having a branching path like that, then maybe extra specializing into specific weapons in that tree.. so they would be good at all types in a given path of weapons, but REALLY REALLY good with a specific weapon in that grouping.

I guess, but most Skill trees are there to allow the player to choose how they want to play, like in Skyrim most people find the game annoying because it's everywhere and Bethesda keep re-releasing it, but that's because every playthrough, the player can choose to be something else, for the newer console.

The weapon upgrade provides certain buffs and elemental advantages over certain enemies. However, it is not required. Though if you hope to kill a certain boss, you might need them/it.

Sorta feeding the needs of the player who loves to explore, I get that.

For instance, every level might give +2 attack, but every tier of gear gives +20. This way levelling still gives the feeling of progression, but gear feels really important. Also it's a really simple thing to implement, which is an understated bonus in and of itself

That would work, but that also means I would have to map every level to benefit weapons, and since weapons would be the main focus then leveling up would become more chore than anything - like grinding, and grinding kinda sucks in turn-based combat games especially if the battle system isn't exciting to do.

 

[Kes]

@plubic_void21 As I already mentioned, this forum is never about a particular project. Therefore the fact that a proposed solution would be a chore for you is irrelevant. Please do not dismiss a suggestion just because it won't fit your specific game. If a suggestion does not meet your needs, there is no need to reply to it. These are suggestions for any game, not just one.

 

[aironneil]

I think it's important to remember that grinding can only be bad when the player feels like they have to do it. I personally like to grind/farm if the combat is fun enough.

You also got to ask yourself what the point of EXP and levels are. In the worst games they serve no point and only change how big the damage numbers are (like if they added a leveling system to something like Devil May Cry but constantly adjusted the enemies so the actual gameplay didn't change at all). In most games, leveling systems are a way to make the game's learning curve go along with the characters' growth. So the gameplay at the beginning is very simple and weak, but because your character/s (and you) got better and stronger it's more complex and deep. In turn-based RPG's this usually means more skills.

On the other hand if you remove levels and EXP then replace them with more deep equipment customization (crafting, forging, finding items, etc...), balancing will be much harder. You also will have to rely on boss and enemy design much more to keep the game fun. Without EXP the game is telling the player that combat that doesn't progress the story is pointless (So boss rush works for this).

Sorry if I seemed to ramble a while. My original point is that you shouldn't be afraid if a mechanic has the player want to grind. If you want loadouts to be the focus of the game though, just make gear increase stats much more than levels. I just wonder what the point of the optional levels between the bosses are if not to get levels. If it's to get new gear or crafting items wouldn't that be the same thing as grinding, but with more steps?

 

[plubic_void21]

@plubic_void21 As I already mentioned, this forum is never about a particular project. Therefore the fact that a proposed solution would be a chore for you is irrelevant. Please do not dismiss a suggestion just because it won't fit your specific game. If a suggestion does not meet your needs, there is no need to reply to it. These are suggestions for any game, not just one.

Sorry if I intentions were not clear, I responded not to dismiss a solution, but to look at all replies from a gamer's perspective and a developer's. I realize that using "I would" comes off as a little personal, so I'll adjust my wording appropriately next time, sorry about that. All the responses here were really great to the topic itself - so I'll try to avoid making that silly mistake again. PS I only responded because I felt since others are giving solutions to something I asked, I'm obligated to reply.

Sorry if I seemed to ramble a while. My original point is that you shouldn't be afraid if a mechanic has the player want to grind. If you want loadouts to be the focus of the game though, just make gear increase stats much more than levels. I just wonder what the point of the optional levels between the bosses are if not to get levels. If it's to get new gear or crafting items wouldn't that be the same thing as grinding, but with more steps?

You didn't ramble, and you're right. beating bosses to get gear would be similar to grinding.