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Discussion in 'Game Mechanics Design' started by Lunarea, Mar 4, 2012.

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  1. AwesomeCool

    AwesomeCool Bratty and spoiled little sister Veteran

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    Well I am thinking of making magic more status like and less direct damage.  Melee skills will be doing the most damage constantly (magic attacks will have cooldowns and more restrictions if they deal direct damage).  

     Also, some enemies will have a tendency to like to charge magic characters and get in there face (and since magic users have lower defenses then average they will fall fast unless they find a way to get out of range).  So you may have to have a tank like character taunt them and draw them away from the magi (or stun/paralyze them).

    Most fights will consist of multiple enemies and bosses will have underlings that annoy your mages if left alone.

    I am trying my best not to make mages too powerful. Note: in this battle system for each player you get two actions and the most powerful spells cost more then one action.

    Movement to dodge enemy attacks is a very interesting idea that I might add now.  

    But if you let the enemy come to you, you might run into problems with enemy casters blasting at you and summoning minions.

    Ty for the feedback  :) .  It gave me a few new ideas and balance decisions.
     
    #61
  2. AwesomeCool

    AwesomeCool Bratty and spoiled little sister Veteran

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    They will have a set radius that the character can move around in and select a position to stop in.  Each movement consumes one action and you get two actions per actor in party (for now).  I am trying my best to prevent it becoming a game of firing magic at each other.

    Edit: Crap double posted D:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2014
    #62
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  3. Caustic

    Caustic Hopped Up on Goofballs Member

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    Yeaah... Edit your previous post next time :x Mods get sassy at DPin'

    OT: So basically, the average battle set-up in most games then, except for the part about most magic dealing statuses rather than direct damage. Interesting. I'd advise being careful about just how "balanced' you make it - don't want magic to become a so-so back-up for when melee does nothing. Both should have their place, along with their own pros and cons.

    Maybe some magics do DoT so they don't do as much immediate damage, but as a battle drags on a boss can have multiple DoT's hanging on them to drag their health down quicker. Obviously balance this with some enemies being immune/resistant to certain attacks (such as some DoT's), forcing the player to mix up their attacks and whatnot. And also skills/magicks that grant increased resistance/immunities to PC's.

    Possibly (likely probably is with scripting, but maybe just editing the database), maybe some magics grow stronger the more they're recast - like how some games have "Deadly Poison" activate if a player/enemy gets hit w/ a poison attack more than once, which will drain their HP even faster - so the player can get around those pesky enemies that are merely "resistant" to a certain DoT and lay more hurt on them as the damage stacks. Of course, enemies should be able to do this as well, because I'm all in favor of even battlefields and such :p ( I like Atlus's SMT meta-series - that should tell you everything you need to know XD )

    I actually like the idea of battling statuses. Certainly beats out the usual "rock-paper-scissors" game that magic becomes when it's only elementally-based, which is a horse that has been beaten to death so many times it was resurrected at least once just so game designers could bludgeon it again.
     
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  4. AwesomeCool

    AwesomeCool Bratty and spoiled little sister Veteran

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     Atlus's SMT series is awesome!

    I do have a script installed that lets states stack, but I never thought to use it in that way.

    Currently I have two types of magic planned, status (damage over time and status effects) and burst (high damage but long cooldowns and high mana costs).  Burst magic will deal less damage over the long run and have less utility, but can be used to take down low hp foes quickly if needed (although inefficient to rely on for long battles).

    I too am sick of elemental based spells that utilize rock/paper/scissor style game play.  I want all the states that are normally in rpgs to actually be used :p  .
     
    #64
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  5. Caustic

    Caustic Hopped Up on Goofballs Member

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    Well I'm not sure about that.

    Some games have very devious statuses that do way more than they have any right to (looking at any game with high-rate insta-kill enemies)

    But I have to agree more than not; it isn't often anymore that players find any use for skills that have statuses such as "Blind", "Bind" or the like, just to name a few. It would be great to have a game that actually makes those skills viable in a fight, in that the player should want to be using them in order to have an advantage over the enemies. Especially in the early parts of the game, where a player's routines are going to be established.

    It would also throw players that have played any number of JRPGs (Final Fantasy, Tales of..., you name it), forcing them to adapt. Could tick off some "gamers" used to the "press X to win" school of gaming, because you might actually have to strategize instead of auto-battling or button mashing through battles, but them's the breaks.
     
    #65
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  6. AwesomeCool

    AwesomeCool Bratty and spoiled little sister Veteran

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    I know I am going to not get any fans that like "press x to win" systems, but you can't get em all.  :)

    I will probably have to give the player more status options earlier on then usual to try and ease them into the system and give suggestions to use them.
     
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  7. Caustic

    Caustic Hopped Up on Goofballs Member

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    One of the things that's always bugged me in RPGs is the fact that there's always (or almost-so, at least) a member or half-dozen of the part that's essentially useless. Either their attributes are in the toilet, or the magic they possess has long-since been eclipsed with far more powerful versions by the time they join on, or in general they are just basically tack-ons that're pointless to have in the party (think Edward a~la FF6 levels of useless). So instead of having only a few good members of the party, my idea was to give each party member a specific mechanic that makes them useful, along with weaknesses that complement said mechanic and the character's "role" in combat.

    First of all, each of the main characters is their own "class", and all of the remaining minor characters are dumped into one of two "classes" depending upon whether they use magic or not - there is no class-switching or class levels at all. Overall, every character that joins up (even those in major rolls) has access to one of two "common" ability pools, with most having access to the default "Burst" pool ("Specials" in an unaltered RM game), and a few have access to a "magic" equivalent, as human magic-users powerful enough for open combat are quite rare in the game world. Each of these are tied to certain weapons that the character has on them, with "None"-aligned attacks allowing anyone with the pool equipped to access them. However, each of the main characters carries their own special ability pool that differentiates them from everyone else.

    Also thinking about linking skills to equipment, which would force some tactical decision about what should be equipped at what time. Not sure right now whether that'd work as a whole or what.

    For example, one of the characters uses sustained abilities that cause either positive (for the party) or negative (for the enemy) statuses, along with an ability or two that does direct DoT. The trade-offs are that, while the sustain is in effect, the character cannot commit to any other actions - at least in the beginning - and that if a certain amount of damage is done to him while in the middle of using an ability (or several, later on), he gets knocked out of it, suffers some mild set-back effects, and cannot use another ability for "x" turns (increases proportionally to strength of ability). While this might not sound useful, his abilities have a low chance of being blocked (read: pretty much bosses-only), and at least one can Bind/Petrify/etc. so the rest of the party can attack freely until the sustain ends, or the enemy breaks free (moderate chance of doing so).

    Another character is a "mage" of sorts, but uses MP/TP instead of just MP for their abilities, which might do equal parts physical and magical damage. Therefore they have to build up their meter until it hits a certain amount, then they can use their abilities, whether selectable from a tier (selecting from several abilities available when a certain amount of TP is available) or individually - I haven't quite decided yet. As well, certain abilities can only be used "x" amount of times per battle before they are "locked" for the remainder of the battle. This limits the use of powerful abilities, preventing the player from "spamming" higher-level 'spells' and such unless they jump through plenty of hoops to be able to do so.

    Finally, instead of having several different dedicated "mage/healer" actors, I combined them into one character. While she's not necessarily great at either, she can play both roles in equal parts, making her a bit more diverse than usual. However, she is weak against physical attacks (as per usual), and not necessarily spectacular in either field. Later on, there'll be abilities from other characters that can supplement or substitute for her attacks, but early on she's something of a godsend, especially since the rest of the party is mostly physical.

    Still no idea how I'm going to fully balance everything out, but that's half the "fun", I guess. XD
     
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  8. kerbonklin

    kerbonklin Hiatus King Veteran

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    Just wanna get some extra thoughts (from anyone who hasn't before) on a event-touch-encounter battle system I made, before I mass-implement it. (I'm most likely going to stick with it)

    Basically you use Field Skills to stun "mobs" on a map for 5 seconds, and initiating battle with them while stunned causes an automatic preemptive. Naturally enemies will be pretty fast so doing this is quite mandatory over time.
     
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  9. Caustic

    Caustic Hopped Up on Goofballs Member

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    @kerbonkril: So sorta of like those games where you get a sword swipe (or whatnot) in on the field, the enemies are "ambushed" and possibly lose a small amount of HP at the beginning?

    Me like o:

    Always for something that evens the odds for players XP

    Does it work in reverse? Like enemies that get the drop on the party sometimes get an initiative turn, with higher risk when they "attack" from behind?
     
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  10. kerbonklin

    kerbonklin Hiatus King Veteran

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    Just the preemptive turn-taking boost. Enemies are naturally faster than you without it throughout the course of the game.
     
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  11. Zoltor

    Zoltor Veteran Veteran

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    That's awesome you figured how to do that, now tell me how you did it lol(we could make some awesome Lufia 2 like games with that, add in puzzles, and stuff, it would be epic for dungeons)?
     
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  12. AwesomeCool

    AwesomeCool Bratty and spoiled little sister Veteran

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    @Caustic I suggest having a small amount of main characters as possible with that system (to keep balancing as easy as you can).  Also, equipment skills would add customization to each character.

    Does the healer/mage fall out of existence or does the character become a dedicated healer later on if everyone else attacks become better then the characters.
     
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  13. kerbonklin

    kerbonklin Hiatus King Veteran

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    @Zoltor it's a big mess of eventing with parallels.

    The enemy events have a fixed autonomous movement, Event Touch, Same as Character, and has the Battle Processing twice - one for if preemptive switch while turning on another switch, and else without the switches.

    A parallel process runs on map-load to set their looped random move route of each enemy on the map, and then erases itself.

    A second parallel process constantly runs where it checks if a switch is on from when I use the Field Skill, checks the direction i'm facing and checks if the event is 1 tile away from the player over the span of a possible 1 second length. If it happens then the enemy is move-routed backwards and increased speed, plays a hit SE, then makes the enemy stop moving and gives it a 5 second looped balloon emote. A preemptive switch turns on Then the enemy resumes it's random move-route and the switch turns back off.

    It's complex as hell. Luckily since I did it once, it's all copy/paste/edit from here, With one enemy so far nothing lags in my sandbox map that has other parallels and junk too.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2014
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  14. Zoltor

    Zoltor Veteran Veteran

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    Ok cool
     
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  15. Caustic

    Caustic Hopped Up on Goofballs Member

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    I think the core cast is around 4, 5 max, with several others being "optional" - as in, you don't need to have them ( or save them from their predicaments, when they happen ), but for the sake of diversity they're there. The "minor" roles ( those that don't have their own Specials menus ) are more or less guests, and although they fight they aren't going to stick around after their respective quests are finished or when a certain checkpoint/milestone is reached. I really don't want the playable cast pool growing beyond 10 characters at a time, because 7~8 is plenty enough XD

    And though I don't want to spoil too much, the cleric!mage does drop off about half-way through for story reasons ( and maybe she also becomes less useful gameplay-wise by that point, not being able to output enough damage or heal fast enough to counter enemies ), although she isn't necessarily replaced in full by one actor or another. For instance, one member might have a strong fire attack, and several can play medic if need-be.

    I'd really like to have a nice balancing act, and it'll probably take a while just to get that under my thumb...
     
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  16. AwesomeCool

    AwesomeCool Bratty and spoiled little sister Veteran

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    I always thought diversity for the sake of diversity is a bad idea.   If the character doesn't serve a role in the story I would axe them from the game.  To add diversity, why not add some customization options to the main characters?  Like give the main characters skills like the side characters via setups of equipment and such.

    Edit: also would make balancing easier.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2014
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  17. Caustic

    Caustic Hopped Up on Goofballs Member

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    @AwesomeCool: My idea was that, while they are optional characters, if you go through the trouble of getting them, they will have their own side-quests and rewards, possibly additional abilities, items, or somesuch for other characters as you mentioned. Plus they would add personality to the cast and have their own say in decisions - some might even leave if you tick them off or mistreat them. That isn't to say the game would be impossible to complete without them - the game would be perfectly beatable (if harder) with just the non-optional characters. In short, they wouldn't be mute dopes that hang out in the back and do/say nothing; I hate when games do that to characters, so I'm trying my best to avoid that.

    In context to the story's current set-up ( and I've pretty well established how much I care about the story part XP ), dumping additional abilities onto the MC w/o context or reason as to why she gets them - no, even if I went through that trouble, it wouldn't make sense and would sort of mess with the flow a bit. While it would be easier just to say "f@#% it" and do as such, I'd rather not, for the aforementioned reasons. Maybe that makes me a glutton for punishment, but whatever :\
     
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  18. Necromus

    Necromus Veteran Veteran

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    I don't see a reason to have more playable characters, than you can fit into the battlesystem at once.

    You will always play with a certain group of people anyways, making the others obsolete.

    Can always have non playable characters following you around on your journeys, that way they are actually important.
     
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  19. hian

    hian Biggest Boss Veteran

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    The point is that having a large cast, allows a larger demographic to pick a party they feel comfortable with.

    Some games like FF 6-9 has dialogue and scene changes based on what members are currently in the party. This adds replay value.

    Large casts, if done right can enrich the narrative. Creating a functional battle system for 6+ characters that doesn't feel repetitive or contrived is very hard though.

    That's just some top of the head reasons though.
     
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  20. Engr. Adiktuzmiko

    Engr. Adiktuzmiko Chemical Engineer, Game Developer, Using BlinkBoy' Veteran

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    yeah, it gives the player the freedom to try out their own party...

    if they make you feel like a certain group makes the other's obsolete, then it's more of there was balance problems...
     
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