Feelings on Secret Characters/Boss

[Seraph]

I know there are plenty of games out there that use secret characters or boss that could or could not affect the plot. So I guess I'm asking how everyone feels how they add to the game in general and how many would be a reasonable number. Like for example in my current project I have two categories of secret characters.

1. Plot Related - 2 (Both recruit-able)

2. Easter Eggs - 6 (4 recruit-able, 2 are just for the plot of a character's quest).

Also should their recruitment requirements be reasonable or ridiculous (I know for sure one of them is light years stronger than the final boss)?

 

[Andar]

There is no easy answer - in some games even three are too much, in other cases a dozen is easy.

It all depends on what the effects would be and how you integrate that into your game engine.

If you claim for something to affect the plot, but then have only limited plot effects (because multiple endings create a lot of excess work), then the players will be frustrated.

And all secret characters have to be different to make the player interested - if it comes to the point where the player only refers to char number 37 then you got a problem.

Same goes for recruitment requirements. Consider that similiar to grinding - there are some players who like grinding and have no problem with repeating a map a dozen times to get something, while others classify a game as booring and repeating if they have to enter a single map two times...

So your first question should be rather "who do I want to play the game" instead of "how can I get the highest number of fans interested".

 

[servantb7]

As far as hidden bosses go, I think they are great. They add replay value and give an extra challenge.  I think in most cases, you want your game to be at a difficulty level that the majority of people who play it can beat it without grinding levels or major frustration. But hidden bosses can be great to give an extra challenge to the gamers who want more.

I would say that there should be some fun reward for doing those extra challenges.  Maybe a secret weapon, extra plot stuff, alternative endings....something that will make the player really want to beat it.

 

[Psyker]

Secret characters aren't bad imo but I think they should be used sparingly.  Most secret characters I've seen in a game was FFVI which had 4 secret characters: Mog, Umaro, Gogo, and Shadow.  None of these were required to finish the game.  Mog and Shadow on show up to progress the story along in the earlier segments of the game.

I love finding secret bosses.  If they are end game bosses definitely make them on par or more powerful then the final boss.  This can lead to explaining more into specific plot lines, extra items, or in some cases additional / expanded endings.

I think the big key is making sure that finding the characters and/or bosses are fun and rewarding or the player can/will have a bad experience.

 

[Oni]

I love the ideas of secret characters, but the thing about them is they have to at times push some kind of side quest that can make having the character worth wild. FF7 is so dear to me, it is my favorite RPG game and how they added side characters to the story and plot was awesome. Vincent even know was a hidden/side character was such a influence to not only FF7 but to the FF7 universe, and yet didn't need him to beat the game. Even Yuffie, first time I played through I never got her, but by getting her she led to side quests that paid off big time, opened more story and help evolve the lore of the game. Even know they weren't needed, they evolved(specially Vincent) to become more favorite of characters than the main characters, enough to get a game made all about them.

For me, big + on the hidden characters.

 

[Chaos Avian]

I'm a fan of hidden bosses, that feeling when you beat such an adverse foe, get a powerful then for the equivalent of 2-4 towns you don't need to buy a new weapon and waste precious money~ Tales of Xillia handled hidden/ secret bosses well I think.

 

[Venka]

I personally like hidden characters and a bosses. I'm the type of gamer that wants to complete the game and have done everything possible. If there's some type of check list in the game.. I'll go out of my way to make sure everything is done.. like fight one of every mob, collect all the treasure, complete every quest.. etc

As far as hidden characters go. I like them just fine. I don't like when recruiting them is too obscure. Like the character is only available to be recruited in a town you've already visited, but they're only recruitable between doing quest 50 and quest 51 and there was no reason to check back at said town. I don't mind the recruitment process taking several steps. Like the traveling npc that is in many games. You have to talk to him or do something for him in each town and if you do it all, then once you reach a certain town, then he'll join you.

As for hidden bosses, I think I've only ever seen a few games that actually had what I'd consider hidden bosses. They're usually pretty epic battles and that's ok, but when it's pushing 40mins of game play and I'm still working on the same boss... I'm reaching my irritation point  Most optional boss are in optional areas and I'm good with that too.

 

[Tai_MT]

I am not really a fan of Hidden Bosses mostly because of how they are typically implemented.  They are almost always stronger than the end boss of the game (which just makes me scream at the screen, since there's no need to save the world if these random bosses or monsters could one shot the final boss once they met up for the first time) and usually possess a rather cheap gimmick.  If it doesn't do either of those things, it's usually a fairly grindtastic adventure in order to find them.  Oh, and once you beat them, no matter how they are implemented, they don't drop anything really that useful.

Let's go with Chrono Trigger for an example of how best to implement "Hidden Bosses".  Towards the end of the game, you are given hints at several things you can do in order to power up for the final boss fight.  But, there are also bosses that aren't mentioned that can actually be found in order to power up your characters.  This makes all the bosses really useful to find, fight, and defeat.  They give you an edge against the final boss if you took the time to complete them.  They aren't even that complicated to find.  Just find the location, complete the dungeon (or chain of events), and reap the rewards.

As for Hidden Characters...  Depends on who they are and what they do.  If you're going to have a Hidden Character, I'd suggest a character that works differently than all the other characters in combat and is interesting or really useful in their own right in order to make them worth finding.  In Final Fantasy 6 the entire reason to obtain "Gogo" as a hidden character was for the move "Mimic".  You could essentially cast the best spells and skills in the game for no time and no magic cost.  This character was also customizable in that you could equip them with any character's special abilities.

If you do Hidden Bosses, I suggest making them useful and not more powerful than the end boss.  Use your own discretion though.  If you do Hidden Characters, I suggest unique or interesting characters that are worth finding.

 

[Espon]

I usually don't add hidden characters since it's difficult to develop them.  I want the character to feel like they belong on the team and just aren't there because you beat them in a duel and then they have almost no dialogue for the rest of the game.  They also shouldn't be overpowered, which I find is the case with a lot of hidden characters.

I am not really a fan of Hidden Bosses mostly because of how they are typically implemented.  They are almost always stronger than the end boss of the game (which just makes me scream at the screen, since there's no need to save the world if these random bosses or monsters could one shot the final boss once they met up for the first time) and usually possess a rather cheap gimmick.  If it doesn't do either of those things, it's usually a fairly grindtastic adventure in order to find them.  Oh, and once you beat them, no matter how they are implemented, they don't drop anything really that useful.

Let's go with Chrono Trigger for an example of how best to implement "Hidden Bosses".  Towards the end of the game, you are given hints at several things you can do in order to power up for the final boss fight.  But, there are also bosses that aren't mentioned that can actually be found in order to power up your characters.  This makes all the bosses really useful to find, fight, and defeat.  They give you an edge against the final boss if you took the time to complete them.  They aren't even that complicated to find.  Just find the location, complete the dungeon (or chain of events), and reap the rewards.

I love seeing optional bosses, they provide the player an extra challenge for those that seek it.  If the final boss was the hardest then some players would be wishing there was still more to do with the game in way of challenge... unless the final boss is impossibly hard, in which this case you're now barring the more casual players from seeing the ending as they don't have the time nor desire to take on such difficulty.  Sure it makes no sense if you look at from a "saving the world" point of view, but then again a lot of things don't make sense in RPGs because it's still a game.

Chrono Trigger kind of had a difficult optional boss in the way of trying to defeat Lavos the first time you meet him.  Since you're supposed to lose, he's far more difficult than his final forms and is only doable in New Game + just because of how powerful he is.  It awards you with the developer's ending (which you could also get by defeating him at the start of the game).

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

I am one of those players who like having secret bosses in a game... for me they add quite a nice extra touch... 

 

[orochii]

I think that being an RPG, extras always depend on the world setup. Whether there is a "unveiled mystery" or something, or a lore mentioned from time to time... Or if you have so much unused space on your worldmap that you want to use it for something else, and then make up some random lore and throw up a giant dragon on a secret cave.

Secrets are always fun. If you find them by pure coincidence, great. If you search endlessly for them, great, now you know those 3 hours of sticking to walls were worth it (unless you give them a potion and 3 lines of meaningless speech as reward). I think that either casual or hardcore gamers like this kind of extra content, and you are pretty much free to give them it, as long as it doesn't breaks your game apart with overpowered and uninventive rewards (this gives Excalibur3, this one Excalibur4 -or just as Tai_MT said, replicated characters).

For extra characters, haven't played it, but you can search some references on Suikoden. If I recall correctly, it has 108 characters, and a lot of these are optional. Maybe you could improve their flaws, if any .

Macaroni is nice with tomato juice,

Orochii Zouveleki

 

[Probotector 200X]

I love secret bosses and characters! It's that little extra touch.

Problem with secret characters is...they aren't part of the story. I for one, love character interaction. It's hugely important to every game I make, and that's one reason I can't make a game where you pick your own party (like Final Fantasy I)...I crave that interaction amongst the main characters. Maybe Tales of Symphonia's skits spoiled me, that extra character interaction. But then again, that method could and would work with secret characters, and I'd like to see that kind of effort.

One thing though, I want secret characters to stand out. Aesthetically and ability-wise. Final Fantasy 6 does this well.

Gogo is a mysterious mimic, shrouded in colorful robes, with a cloak and hood obscuring every detail. You aren't even supposed to be able to tell if it's a man or a woman! Gameplay-wise. S/he has, sub-par stats, and rather limited equipment options...But unlike every other character who has the Fight command, Gogo has Mimic! And instead of a personal ability, Magic, and Item, Gogo can use just about any and every other command available! So versatile! Takes the jack-of-all-trades thing to a whole new level. Someway, somehow, Gogo is one of my favorite characters.

Umaro is a yeti. Seriously, just a big furry berserker. He can only equip like 3 items in the whole game, and acts on his own, using only about 1-3 different attacks. But his stats are great! He's like the opposite of Gogo!

They both just stand out so much from the other characters. And that's what makes them so fun, so...cool as secrets. Also, Final Fantasy VI is one of those cool games that let you walk around as any party member! Part of the fun of these obscure secret characters is that you can even walk around as them!

Secret bosses are fun too. Secret bosses that are also secret characters are something else. C'mon, you know there's been an optional super boss that you wanted in your party. Wild ARMs did that to me.

 

[Tai_MT]

I usually don't add hidden characters since it's difficult to develop them.  I want the character to feel like they belong on the team and just aren't there because you beat them in a duel and then they have almost no dialogue for the rest of the game.  They also shouldn't be overpowered, which I find is the case with a lot of hidden characters.

I love seeing optional bosses, they provide the player an extra challenge for those that seek it.  If the final boss was the hardest then some players would be wishing there was still more to do with the game in way of challenge... unless the final boss is impossibly hard, in which this case you're now barring the more casual players from seeing the ending as they don't have the time nor desire to take on such difficulty.  Sure it makes no sense if you look at from a "saving the world" point of view, but then again a lot of things don't make sense in RPGs because it's still a game.

Chrono Trigger kind of had a difficult optional boss in the way of trying to defeat Lavos the first time you meet him.  Since you're supposed to lose, he's far more difficult than his final forms and is only doable in New Game + just because of how powerful he is.  It awards you with the developer's ending (which you could also get by defeating him at the start of the game).

I know this is a somewhat silly thing to point out...  But it actually WAS possible to beat Lavos at that first encounter if you had gained enough levels beforehand, or had some fairly decent items to keep yourself from getting murdered.  At the point in the Water Palace, he's actually at his weakest on the first playthrough.  There were even a few times on my first playthroughs (mind you, these are New Game and not New Game +, so obviously it isn't my first playthrough) that I actually came close to killing him in that scene without taking any special care in how I leveled up or what I had with me.  It's possible to wipe him out on the first attempt, however most players don't do it because it does take a bit of grind to get to that point.  You have to know the event is coming up to even prepare for it.  So, everyone gets whacked there, which is a great scene in and of itself.

The reason I don't like the "Optional Bosses after the main boss" is because you know they won't drop anything good.  Beating them does nothing except give you bragging rights against those who care about them.  Also, once they're dead, you're out of stuff to do again.  You've essentially turned your "harder than the boss" optional bosses into "the actual boss of the game" instead of doing it the other way around, which to me, makes more sense from a design standpoint.  Your game has to end at some point.  It'll end when you beat the boss, or end when you beat the optional superhard bosses after that one...  But, at some point the player runs out of content regardless.  The real question is then "Is it better to offer the extra content BEFORE the end of the game or AFTER the end of the game?".  My vote, of course, resides with before the end of the game (unless we're talking open world games like Skyrim or games with a New Game + mode).  Otherwise, I have no real incentive as a player to defeat these optional bosses that give me nothing except either a grindtastic challenge, a gimmicky challenge, or a frustrating challenge after I've already gotten the end of the game.  Likewise, I also prefer that these bosses before the end of the boss give you an edge against the final boss, but not be required to beat the final boss.

But, that's just how I feel about it.  Some people just like the challenge.  I can't fault them for that.  I prefer the reward for the time spent instead of patting myself on the back for a job well done.  But, that's just me.  I'm into somewhat tangible rewards for my time being spent.  After all, there's no way to get my time back.

 

[Probotector 200X]

You just reminded me of something. I LOVE it when RPGs have post-game content. And...the game acknowledges that you beat it. The world is safe once more, people in towns get back to their daily lives...maybe, the big bad's evil castle of doom is gone. There are still monsters abound, and maybe NOW, the strongest boss appears. They aren't a threat to the world like the final boss. They just happen to be more powerful, and have no desire to destroy the world, or...even to protect it? I don't know, not every game revolves around saving the world. For those who want to beat the game again, make some kind of time portal, or some dream sequence fight, or whatever to let you fight the normal final boss again, and see the ending again.

 

[MyLordRobinson]

I don't particularly like the idea of secret characters in a story because that's extra and wasted resources on you as a developer if the player doesn't take them along in the storyline. I think it's more hassle than it's worth.

 

[CWells]

Hmm, Extra bosses can be fun if they relate to something popular in game world. Or you can use a certain boss as a running joke. Or you can put something in that makes you think of a certain non-important NPC.

 

[Daijou]

Extra characters? No thanks. I'm already overwhelmed with even eight characters to manage, level up, gear, and possibly complete side plots for. I don't need any more than that.

Side bosses? Count me in. There are two games that instantly come to mind for me for this. The first is FFX. The game is very linear up until the point you gain access to the airship, and can travel to any of the locations you've been before. However, there are also secret locations that grant access to additional content, several of which contain extra bosses. These aren't particularly challenging, but they do offer some nice rewards. FFX also had the monster coliseum, or whatever it was called, where after you had captured 10 of each monster in an area, you could fight a created monster from the coliseum. These were undoubtedly far more difficult than any of the plot related bosses in the game, and were the ultimate achievement to strive towards. Often times you had to develop a good stragey to approach them with as well.

The other game that comes to mind, is Tales of Symphonia. At a point late in the game, you gain access to cursed weapons that server no purpose and are pitifully weak. However, by defeating a secret boss, you unlock the full potential of these items, where you do 1 damage for every monster that character has defeated. Seems unimpressive at first, but after a few New Game+'s and carrying over battle data, you can become godlike. There's also a difficult side dungeon to explore that has it's own rules applied to it, with a boss harder than the final (that I remember at least).

 

[monkeynohito]

I really like the idea of optional characters, but have a lot of the same issues that have already been mentioned. Here's a couple possible solutions though:

Modern storytelling tends to have a lot more going on outside of The Main Story and while it can still be a pain in the ass to work in complex blanks for an optional character to fill in The Main Story, there are plenty of other places that such a character can shine. Some games, like Persona 3 and 4 even have interactions that are compartmentalized enough that you can present an optional character as fully as the mains without any special pains. It's just a lot more feasible for side characters to get screen time these days as long as you don't demand they get the full star treatment.

For the complaints about balancing side characters for battle: does that really need to be an issue? When people think of the military, they tend to forget that the vast majority of roles are in support and not frontline fighting. There's room for a couple of people like that in an RPG party, someone who hangs around and provides some benefit, but doesn't run up and smack monsters. Or, maybe they do as a special one-off support attack, just not a full combatant. It could be as simple as a mascot character that snoops up loot as you travel or as complex as someone that opens up a fishing mini-game for you. In a complex crafting system or something similar, you could also have bonus characters that only help with that.

 

[atoms]

I'm sure someone else here has more or less covered this in a different way, but here's my input in case it helps.

I think first look at your main story without secret characters and bosses. What does that play out like? How many bosses are there? How many characters are there overall and in the party at the end of the game?

Then from there look back and decide where you can add secret characters, if it makes sense to perhaps have multiply endings or differences in the story at certain points based upon recruiting a secret character and how many would make sense and balance well with both the story and the game. You'd want to ask yourself similar questions with the bosses.

Plan it out first and then implement it in the game when you're satisfied this could work.

 

[Clord]

I have been planning to have a post-story dungeon to let player to keep going if they want to. However at that point bosses and stuff players will face is not overall made as easy. Though I feel that characters should not just become silent because of it so there would probably end up being some story in it too.


I kind of like an idea of having some secret characters. However it is a bit odd to have some characters hanging around who don't like to talk.