Feelings on Secret Characters/Boss

[Cope]

I'm a fan of both game features. Mostly because it gives me a sense of accomplishment for discovering them, and because I've paid careful attention to the lore of the game world to figure out about them. As long as these two features won't jump the shark, it's alright with me. And even if they do, I only hope they'd be hilarious. 

 

[me > u]

     Truly, it depends on the story, and how strong the characters turn out to be. Maybe if the ending was different depending on the characters unlocked throughout the story, they would have larger significance. Though, if you're just putting them in to have them, it may not work out too well. In games like Fire Emblem, there were MANY MANY extra characters but they worked because you got them post game, and they just made for a fun extra boss run. Though, characters in Record of Agarest War made your team way too overpowered, and after the main story ended, you had like 30+ characters in your party most of which were very underleveled and you never ended up using them unless you wanted to spend countless amounts of hours fighting. Truly, in a turn based RPG, the best thing would be to only offer the hidden characters when the party's level is around this person's, and this person contributed to the story, and like add to the ending, or make something extra of the characters.

 

[CRogers]

I think the most important question to ask is 'why is this character/boss secret?' What does it add by them being secret instead of just being found in the plot. It's not a question of is this or is this character good, but is this character/boss good beeing secret?

As has been mentioned, I think FF6 did secret characters well. They are unique, but if you missed one, it wouldn't really impact the game. A nice little side story for replays or people looking to completely explore the game.

I think FF7, which is otherwise my favorite game, did them poorly. Vincent and Yuffie were great characters, but their being secret added nothing. It actually reduced a lot from the plot if you didn't find them. Also, as they didn't appear in movies (impossible to do because they might not be with the party) they were completely absent from the end game cinematic.

I think secret bosses work better. If you are planning a game that isn't meant to be that hard, the secret boss can add challenge to players who want something challenging. Also, if you want to do optional storylines, either as background on your characters or the world that is not required but may interest players really into the story, they can be a good option.

 

[Allerka]

I have no problem with either, but I think the key is they have to be implemented well. Obtaining a secret character shouldn't be some arcane and arbitrary process that'd be pretty much impossible to figure out without a strategy guide, but something that, even if it takes a while, I can figure out on my own (and thus feel a much greater sense of accomplishment at completing it). Also, they should compliment the story if they're around, but the story shouldn't suffer if they're not. Yeah, this takes some extra work, but it's been pulled off (Mass Effect and Dragon Age come to mind, both games where the story was strengthened by getting optional characters, yet it didn't feel like there was a gaping hole in the plot from the ones I missed or even killed).

Same for optional bosses. They can be anything from just part of a side-quest to a game's ultimate challenge. I think this one really comes down to designer/player preference. They can add a fun challenge, as well as be a good opportunity for extra rewards, but the player shouldn't necessarily feel penalized for skipping them or not being able to beat them. Me, my game's going to have several optional bosses (one of which will be on par with the final boss), but I'm pretty sure I'm going to pass on optional characters.

 

[FlamingWolf - Zezaph]

Secret booses are totally cool. They are a challange that power players like me enjoy, plus they can be a funny easter egg or a way to unlock a secret ending ( I'm actually doing it in my game: a secret boss, that's funny, that can unlock a secret ending, also funny, to break from the drama of the other endings ).

However, I think that giving too many bosses is too much. I'd rather have one secret boss, but have to take a series of steps in order to unlock it, rather than having 4 or 5 bosses that makes everything confusing.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Eschaton]

I can imagine the hidden boss as something people talk about in the cafeteria or the water cooler or the scuttlebutt.  I can imagine the original intent as a pleasant surprise to the intrepid player.

But in this day, I dunno.  I think they would have been a great thing before the internet.  But the internet... it changed everything.  Months before a game is released, somebody has leaked it, completely bug-tested it, documenting every bug, hidden path, hidden treasure, and transcribed every NPC conversation.  They have completely decoded the random number generator.  They found every boss, they tested every build.

Then they post their findings on GameFAQs.  Complete wikis for a game manifest themselves the day of release.  Its crazy.

Just as bad, is the similarly-priced (to the game) limited collector's edition walk-through guide that is sold concurrently or right before the game is sold.

Trying to put a surprise in a game is pointless if so many people go out of their way to ruin the surprise.

#GeorgeCarlinMoment

 

[Omnimental]

Like Eschaton said, thanks to the internet, true secret bosses and characters are a thing of the past.  However, I strongly feel that optional bosses and characters are still very much a strong asset in the right settings.  Doing stuff like in Star Ocean 2, where acquiring certain characters locks out your ability to acquire others is one method I feel is sorely underrepresented.  Optional bosses should have at least some impact on the game besides just being a bragging rights reward.  Maybe a monster is terrorizing a small town, and once the town is saved you can visit as they rebuild.  Maybe there's a Time Avatar that, once beaten, will produce an aspect of itself that joins your party.  However, you can only encounter said Avatar at specific points in time, hinted at through books and storytellers scattered throughout the world.  The reward for finding the optional content doesn't need to be tangible (+1 Infinity Sword), but some part of the player's experience needs to change.  Unlocking a shortcut, seeing a touching reunion, watching a struggling town rebuild, those are rewards that have just as much if not more of an impact to the player then another sword for their collection.

Just don't make your optional content Guide Dang It stuff, and it should be fine.  Incorporate them into the world, and have their defeat/acquisition affect the world they exist in.

 

[Allerka]

Agreed on that last part. I've got several optional quests that will affect the ending depending on the choices you make during them, or whether or not you even do them.

 

[Tigersong]

Two cents inbound...

I don't often finish linear games, so I guess "before the end" is preferable. And hey, why not do something unusual like attach special music to those hidden characters? Give players something to look forward to besides more game, hm?

 

[Silent Darkness]

In my opinion, secret/optional bosses are awesome. But they should be few(No more than 3)and powerful.

 

[Clord]

Oh yes, there is one nice thing about "optional" bosses. You can make them way more complex to beat than normally considered to be a "good design" when it comes to mechanics. Like bosses that can be beaten for hours to get them below 10% of health and then if you didn't know what to do, boss fully heals itself back to 100% and then destroys the party.

 

[Omnimental]

That's actually a really good point.  Optional bosses shouldn't challenge you based on your level, but on how well you've mastered the game's mechanics.

 

[Eschaton]

ALL bosses should challenge you based on your understanding of the game's mechanics.

 

[Tai_MT]

Exactly.  They should all be a challenge.  If your boss isn't a challenge, consider just making it a standard mook and moving on with your day.  Boss fights shouldn't be able to be cleared in ANY LESS than 15 full rounds of combat.  Boss fights are time sinks that should test your abilities, test your skills, test your resource management, test your preparation, and teach the player a new mechanic they might not have considered (learning how a boss does something is very rewarding to a player, especially when they figure out its counter).

If your bosses don't fall into that criteria, you're doing it wrong.

 

[Eschaton]

I disagree with the 15 full rounds of combat.  It shouldn't be long because it has inflated stats, it should be long because it forces you to stay in your comfort zone until you can find an exploitable opening.  A boss that forces you to debuff it before you can even damage it.  Even turn-based bosses can be designed this way.

Honestly, I would be impressed with a boss that fought well, the fight lasted a while, and it had maybe only slightly above average stats.

These fifteen billion hit point bosses are getting ridiculous (literally, I ridicule JRPGs that have bosses with hit points that high).

 

[headdie]

Bosses should indeed be about the challenge and while hit points is one way of achieving that it is also pretty crude and at times frustrating.  bosses which use dramatic effects to turn the tables on the player and keep the player thinking are the best ones, and certainly in my book the most memorable.

as for secret bosses and characters, it depends on how much effort you want to spend on them, some people spoke about having the content to "justifying" them being secret in terms of additional quests/story elements and I kind of get what they mean but at the same time that can come with the planning, if for example you are at the stage in your game where you feel that the player is needing to grind to progress then they provide more story driven players with something to do.  

They absolutely should be optional but personally I hate grinding so finding clues in the game that there might be additional story elements to chase up through a grinding stage is very cool in my book.

 

[Tai_MT]

The problem with the "high HP bosses" making the 15 rounds of combat is that if all you're doing for a boss is giving them more HP without meeting any of the other criteria, you're already doing it wrong.  You're just creating a "glorified mook" at that point.  You don't need hundreds or even thousands of HP to even make  a boss (or standard enemy) interesting or a challenge to fight.  In fact, you could design an RPG in which your players never get more than 10 HP and bosses never have more than 50 and make a pretty fantastic and/or challenging fight.  Some of the Paper Mario series bosses are like this.  Mario himself rarely gets above 50 HP in those games and the bosses rarely get above 200 HP.  The fights are then about managing your resources and planning out your attacks (which some of the boss fights do well and some do poorly).

All having a "high HP boss" does is invite players to "min/max" and not actually play your game.  If someone wants to "min/max" let them go play a dungeon crawler or something.  If you want a great game with a combat system players will remember, your bosses have to do more than simply whack you until you die, or wait to be whacked until dead.  One of the best methods I've ever seen in creating a "tough boss" was when instead of having a ton of HP, the boss simply had a TON of defense and you had to figure out ways to negate or bypass the defense to dish out enough damage.  Said boss could also "counter attack" every so often and heal.  The counter attack was based on the boss's stats and not the amount of damage you did on your last hit.  It made the fight a challenge, but figuring out how to beat it was fairly rewarding.

Thus, if you've made your boss well (as in, hitting all the requirements I listed before), it should be no less than 15 full rounds of combat to put them down.  Yes, even if the player knows how to defeat the boss.  You don't need to buff HP to do this either.