Female characters

[hian]

I strive for 50/50 where it makes sense to have it.

In towns, in the cast of main characters etc.

A not insignificant part of the game takes part on the battlefield, in fights between infantry troops.

Generally, this scenes feature largely male characters, because that's how war has generally always been historically.

My game is set in a fantasy world, but I still believe it needs to have certain similarities to the real world, because that's a big part of making the game relatable on a visceral level.

The armies do feature female characters though, but usually in roles that wouldn't require them to lug around wounded guys who're 70 kg plus in weight.

Reversaly, there will be places and scenarios that disproportionately feature female characters.

But as I said, rather than numbers I like to focus on the how of it.

How can I make an interesting character. Gender is usually the last thing I think about. It just isn't relevant. I pick the gender based on what I think will be most visually interesting at the time.

If a scene has too many uniform characters, I'll add something that sticks out for the sake of making the scene interesting.

Balancing the gender of the characters becomes a natural extension of that.

 

[Seacliff]

Okay, I did skim through all of this, but one thing that came into my head while reading this was Touhou.

Touhou is a game where EVERYONE (besides like, three characters I believe) is female, fairly well developed to.

And the weirdest part is, the entire main series was done by a guy, and whenever I play the games, I forget that there is pretty much no male characters at all, like it never mattered, I may realize vice-versa if the game was entirely Male characters.

My point is, if it isn't that hard to have well developed characters all focused on one gender, then it should be just as easy to make a party with a 50-50 gender ratio. Personality wise Male and Female are quite similar, I can't think of a character development that can only suit one gender or another.

 

[Solo]

But as I said, rather than numbers I like to focus on the how of it.

Hoe can I make an interesting character. Gender is usually the last thing I think about. It just isn't relevant. I pick the gender based on what I think will be most visually interesting at the time.

If a scene has too many uniform characters, I'll add something that sticks out for the sake of making the scene interesting.

Balancing the gender if the characters becomes a natural extension of that.

Amen. This is what I've been trying to say all along... I don't even worry about the race/gender of a character, I just do what appeals to me.

To worry about it only muddles the creative process, which is fatal.

 

[hian]

One thing many people tend to forget is logical extensions of specific plot choices.

If I choose to write a story about a straight man, with a love element to it, the extension of that will be the inclusion of a straight female character. That's just where the logic takes you.

Furthermore, if a guy is writing this, he'll probably make that character according to what he finds attractive in women.

There is nothing wrong with this, and the only way to change this would be to change the nature of the protagonist.

The worst thing you can say is that the game isn't targeted nor intended for people who're not interested in love stories for straight men.

The right thing to do, is to encourage those who're interested in making other kinds of stories, to go out and make those stories - Not demand that other people go out of their way to make them for you, when they might not even be interested in doing that.

Artists are not slaves to the market. They provide a product that we're free to enjoy or ignore.

The logic should be obvious though.

When for instance a girl or woman finds she can't relate to the protagonist or the story of a game because it features a guy going after a girl in a way that's appealing to guys, then why would you expect that the opposite wouldn't also hold true?

And when you consider the large majority of male producers, this becomes even more easy to understand.

The real issue though, is the need to acknowledge the existence of people who want alternative narratives, and that these people engage with the medium and start producing their own games.

We are living in an age where this is becoming increasingly easy to do.

However, it's going to require guts. It's going to require people willing to loan money, establish a company, track down and hire a team etc.

That's what producers of games have done for ages.

The idea that you can, or ought to, just go petition developers who're already established, and have their own preferences and ambitions, and expect them to do a 180 degree turn on a coin, and make something completely different, is naive and really entitled behavior.

It's about as silly as going into the metal industry, and start petitioning bands to add jazz elements to their music. It's built on a fundamental misunderstanding of what art is, and how the art industry works.

Personally, I hate the direction Square Enix is going in - so my response, make my own game in the vein of earlier Sqauresoft titles.

I'm not going to go running to SE and ask them to make concessions for my sake.

They have their games and their fans. Let them have it, I say.

Also, that kind of behavior just doesn't work as well, as being proactive and trying to breach the industry yourself.

I mean look at all the petitions for remakes of FF7, English translations of Japanese games etc - almost always, that kind of activism goes nowhere.

My main character, is a gender unspecified person of colour. Why? Because I felt like it.

He/she is there to stay, and be one new character that breaks with the stereotypes of the general gaming industry. It's a one pluss to the representation team, and one minus to the status quo team.

I.E it does more good than putting your name on a petition that gets left behind in the dust, or a blog post that simply talks about change, instead of making it.

 

[Solo]

I wholeheartedly agree with you, Hian.

Artists are not slaves to the market. They provide a product that we're free to enjoy or ignore.

And that's why I love being one!

Let's make a difference!

 

[orochii]

Artists are not slaves to the market.

That's an issue that we could cover another day. Because that's not... entirely true, neither false.

===

There is one difference I would like to say. "Feminine/female" and "woman" aren't interchangeable. Neither "Male/masculine" and "man". This is something I forgot while writing my previous post.

And why do I make this statement? Because you can't say that writing a man needs you to think about any of the cultural rules dictated about how a man has to be (generally speaking, a man can be feminine, and viceversa, a feminine can be man--I mean, a woman can be masculine). And in any kind of story, you don't need to be historically correct, you're free to do so or to not do so. You can make a medieval fantasy where all men wear dresses and women wear... well women nowadays wear whatever they want anyways. And don't forget about kilts, they're worn by real men! (with red beards! --okay that's an stereotype, thanks Willy!).

Anyway, give yourself some freedom. Mold the game as you wish.

It doesn't needs to end up being a Yume Nikki, but yeah, please do ****,

Orochii Zouveleki

PD.: Also a personal anecdote. When there was a NES in home (RIP :'C), my sister played Super Mario like anyone! and passed it several times straight (Mode A, B, that stuff), and she was, what? 10yrs old? I have NEVER passed SuperMario in my life. To date. And I'm a guy. So, are girls really bad at videogames?

 

[Solo]

Anyway, give yourself some freedom. Mold the game as you wish.

This deserves reiteration.

 

[hian]

That's an issue that we could cover another day. Because that's not... entirely true, neither false.

I think I know what you are implying, but I would still say the statement is unequivocal true.

One thing is saying that artists can think of their art as having impact or political commentary, it's another thing entirely to say that artists ought to always think of their art as such and listen to the demands of people who come across their art.

Firstly, because an "is-ought" statement is a logical fallacy by default, and secondly because people are either fans or not.

A content creator might listen to people who he or she wishes were fans, or people who are fans - a content creator is under no obligation to make products for all people however, nor to make concessions for people who're admittedly not fans of the artist.

That's what the above statement means. An artist is free to make whatever they want, for whomever they wish. To pretend otherwise, is to say that you have some sort of inalienable right to specific products from artists that you've neither paid, nor contributed to the making of.

There is one difference I would like to say. "Feminine/female" and "woman" aren't interchangeable. Neither "Male/masculine" and "man". This is something I forgot while writing my previous post.

And why do I make this statement? Because you can't say that writing a man needs you to think about any of the cultural rules dictated about how a man has to be (generally speaking, a man can be feminine, and viceversa, a feminine can be man--I mean, a woman can be masculine). And in any kind of story, you don't need to be historically correct, you're free to do so or to not do so. You can make a medieval fantasy where all men wear dresses and women wear... well women nowadays wear whatever they want anyways. And don't forget about kilts, they're worn by real men! (with red beards! --okay that's an stereotype, thanks Willy!).

Anyway, give yourself some freedom. Mold the game as you wish.

It doesn't needs to end up being a Yume Nikki, but yeah, please do ****,

Orochii Zouveleki

PD.: Also a personal anecdote. When there was a NES in home (RIP :'C), my sister played Super Mario like anyone! and passed it several times straight (Mode A, B, that stuff), and she was, what? 10yrs old? I have NEVER passed SuperMario in my life. To date. And I'm a guy. So, are girls really bad at videogames?

The rest goes without saying. Of course you're completely free to do as you wish with your fantasy world.

But, as I said in my last post, some elements might gain from being parallel to our world, because it makes it more relatable to a lot of people.

As for women being poor gamers:

Hell no. There is no inherent difference between skills in gaming based on gender.

This is probably a stupid stereotype born from guys who had nice girlfriends who really didn't give two licks about gaming, sit down and play a round or two of tekken and loosing miserably.

Women and girls who actually game though, are just as good, sometimes better, than guys.

 

[echo]

I think it's natural for someone to create a character that they can better relate to.  Generally, it's easier for males to write from a male perspective, and vice versa, and being as there's a majority of male developers, the ratio ends up being uneven.  That's not a hard and fast rule by any means, but a realistic generalisation.

I used to write short plays for a small company, and I remember one of them being rejected because the female protagonist 'didn't sound feminine.'  Never mind that it was heavily based on a girl I knew; apparently the production manager didn't think it was an accurate representation of a woman.  Change the character to a man, he said; your previous writing has been far more genuine.  I wasn't aware that I 'write like a man,' but apparently I do, so that's what I tend to stick to now.  Not always, but mostly.  Maybe it's just the case that most people making games find it more natural to place male characters at the forefront of the story, in which case it isn't so much to do with gender specifics, but more the comfort of a certain writing style.

 

[Solo]

 I wasn't aware that I 'write like a man,' but apparently I do, so that's what I tend to stick to now.

If you're happy and comfortable with that, that's fine, but do NOT let ignorant people impose restrictions on your creativity. All too often, it's the "mediocre minds" who point the finger at "great spirits" for being aberrant, rather than acknowledging their own closed-mindedness.

 

[MyLordRobinson]

Claude is to Start Ocean as Titus was to FFX as Vann was to FFXIII.

 

[hian]

I don't put Vaan in the same category as Claude and Tidus, for as little character development they had, they still had tons more than Vaan.

To this day, the only male main character that stands out to me in terms of development, is Cloud from FF7. He didn't have this silly over the top personality to begin with, and slowly transformed into somebody quite different from the somber professionalist he started out as.

Most other male heroes are either "hard dudebros", quirky side-kicks, emos, the bookish socially awkward guy/tech wis support guy, the spunky thief/Han solo clone, wise mentor, or mysterious stranger.

I hate all of these stereotypes with equal vigor.

Cloud is the only character I can name at the top of my head(except the characterless lineless heroes of Suikoden, and BoF) that rejects all that by simply being normal.

Some people think normal is boring - I think normal is the new exciting when you consider all the people who insist on writing non-ordinary characters.

Writing this I remembered another character I like, because he was ordinary, and that is Laguna from FF8.

It's worth noting though, that I can mention more female characters that I like and I think are well written, than male, when it comes to RPGs.

Case in point - I'd play spin off games action adventure style featuring any of the female characters from FF10 any day of the week. The male ones? Not so much.

 

[Celianna]

I think it's natural for someone to create a character that they can better relate to.  Generally, it's easier for males to write from a male perspective, and vice versa, and being as there's a majority of male developers, the ratio ends up being uneven.  That's not a hard and fast rule by any means, but a realistic generalisation.

I am tired of this excuse. Like somehow men are unable to relate to women who go through the exact same problems and struggles as men do. Obviously, a few differences here and there due to history, but in the end, the struggles and core concepts are the same. Instead of the misunderstood, lonesome, geeky boy who struggles to find a place in this world and make friends - why can't it be a girl? Those struggles are not unique to men.


Ever seen a woman say they naturally relate to female characters more than male characters, and that is also why they write female characters? When I started playing video games, I never really cared much for gender. I related to anyone that was realistic. I also, played dating games designed for men. Meaning I played a male character that was wooing female characters, and loved every single one of them, even though I am a woman and also straight. I'll also let you in on a little secret, being a fanfiction writer myself, I love writing male characters as protagonists, because while different from myself, they're still human and share the same fears and hopes as me.


There was this study done - can't remember its name at the moment, it was a while ago - that said boys had a harder time accepting girl protagonists in stories than a boy. Girls on the other hand, had no preference, or it didn't matter in their decision to buy the book or not. I think this is less 'can't relate to girls' and more 'can't accept girls being the main character' due to underlying issues in society and how it views women and how boys grow up with that mindset, and why girls are used to media featuring a male protagonist.


Also, a good writer should be able to write any character, and not find his own gender easier because he can relate to it more. Women, like someone else said, aren't aliens.

 

[A-Moonless-Night]

You're totally right, Cel. It seems to be a cop-out for most artists/writers/developers. Anyone who thinks their entire audience consists of white cis-gendered males just has no idea.

Hian, I don't quite agree with your statement about "if people don't like it, they should just make their own". That's all well and good for this community since, you know, we are doing that, but it's not financially viable for every single person who wants to play a specific sort of game to just make their own. We make the games we want to play, but sometimes I just want to play a certain type of game, not make it myself. I think it's pretty ridiculous that developers just want to cater to only one portion of their audience. It's art, but it's also a service. If there's demand for a particular sort of game, why not make it? Why limit yourself to one gender and one race? And why are our games so homogeneous?

 

[hian]

I am tired of this excuse. Like somehow men are unable to relate to women who go through the exact same problems and struggles as men do. Obviously, a few differences here and there due to history, but in the end, the struggles and core concepts are the same. Instead of the misunderstood, lonesome, geeky boy who struggles to find a place in this world and make friends - why can't it be a girl? Those struggles are not unique to men.

I agree but there are some holes in the logic.Firstly, many advocates of female perspectives in narratives also argue for men's lack of understanding of the female perspective - case in point female stereotypes used by male authors.

If males consistently write poor female characters, as is being claimed by many, then that does throw into question a lot of men's ability to relate to the experiences of women.

I'm not saying that's true, just that it's something that could be surmised from that kind of logic.

Also, I can't even begin to count all the times I've heard women themselves say that their troubles and experiences are complete different and impossible to understand for men...

Doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

When you hear the rhetoric of people like Anita Sarkeesian, you're very much left with a feeling of "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

As for relating to characters - you miss a very basic part of experience, which is the visceral.

It's not that a male character can't relate to a female character, it's probably more that they can't see themselves as being a woman, and being the main character is a large part of the video game experience.

I think, at least personally, while I can relate to a female character as a someone else, she wouldn't function as well as a digital projection of me into a game, because after all, I am not a woman.

That women feel this as well to some degree is obvious by the fact that there are so many asking for more female protagonists.

If women didn't care one way or another, and gender truly was irrelevant, then it wouldn't matter of the majority of protagonists were either male or female.

It does matter however, because humans project. We project ourselves into the stories, and we relate best to the stories that make sense to us and our reality.

A male hero falling in love with woman functions as an allegory for me and my life because I am a straight male. It does nor function as well as an allegory for people who're neither male nor straight, and therein lies the issue.

I also agree that there should be more stories for people who're not like me, when you consider how many who seems to want it. I just don't believe that it's necessary to villainize people for making a certain narrative, or people who enjoy that narrative in the process(not saying you are).

It is possible to fill the need with new narratives without having to curtail others. It's not like every game featuring one kind of protagonist, means that another narrative was denied existence as a result.

Ever seen a woman say they naturally relate to female characters more than male characters, and that is also why they write female characters? When I started playing video games, I never really cared much for gender. I related to anyone that was realistic. I also, played dating games designed for men. Meaning I played a male character that was wooing female characters, and loved every single one of them, even though I am a woman and also straight. I'll also let you in on a little secret, being a fanfiction writer myself, I love writing male characters as protagonists, because while different from myself, they're still human and share the same fears and hopes as me.

There was this study done - can't remember its name at the moment, it was a while ago - that said boys had a harder time accepting girl protagonists in stories than a boy. Girls on the other hand, had no preference, or it didn't matter in their decision to buy the book or not. I think this is less 'can't relate to girls' and more 'can't accept girls being the main character' due to underlying issues in society and how it views women and how boys grow up with that mindset, and why girls are used to media featuring a male protagonist.

Also, a good writer should be able to write any character, and not find his own gender easier because he can relate to it more. Women, like someone else said, aren't aliens.

You do seem to care about men not writing female characters, and having female characters, so you do sort of contradict your own advocacy in a way, as I tried to explain above.Besides, when you have society, women and gender ideologues saying that men can't understand the female experience, then I would say that might also influence men's ability to relate to female characters.

Don't get me wrong, I'm on board with writing female characters, not relying on stereotypes, and challenging yourself as a writer.

But again, to make the assumption that there is some sexist conspiracy, rather than simply a bunch of rather simple men who're self-projecting themselves into their own personal fantasy land, seems like a large leap to me.

Unless we're implying that the act of making art as an extension of personal fantasies are somehow a sin - but seeing as how you're a fanfic writer, I know you sure as hell don't hold to that opinion - I really don't see the issue as much more than a lack of female writers.

Get women into the industry. Encourage those interested to try their hands out in production, and things will even out.

You probably feel like I'm singling you out and being a dick, but that's really not what this is about.

It's just that I feel you iterate very well some issues I've been giving a lot of thought lately, and while I agree with the general sentiment, there are certain specifics that I wanted to comment on.

These are just my impressions of the situation in any case.

You're totally right, Cel. It seems to be a cop-out for most artists/writers/developers. Anyone who thinks their entire audience consists of white cis-gendered males just has no idea.

Hian, I don't quite agree with your statement about "if people don't like it, they should just make their own". That's all well and good for this community since, you know, we are doing that, but it's not financially viable for every single person who wants to play a specific sort of game to just make their own. We make the games we want to play, but sometimes I just want to play a certain type of game, not make it myself. I think it's pretty ridiculous that developers just want to cater to only one portion of their audience. It's art, but it's also a service. If there's demand for a particular sort of game, why not make it? Why limit yourself to one gender and one race? And why are our games so homogeneous?

The issue is that, in the beginning, going out and doing it on your own, was what people did, and still do.People don't owe you anything you haven't payed or traded for.

You might not have the money by yourself right now, but why are you making the assumption you have to start the change with a multimillion dollar project?

Besides, consider that feminist frequency raised 150.000 dollars to make a video series about the game industry.

That really should tell you something about what could be done with the industry if most of these sofa activists actually stopped being lazy and started making stuff instead.

Secondly, who is this audience you speak of? A piece of art that hasn't been made yet, and a bunch of critics of earlier titles is not an audience.

The real question is, why should developers invest huge amounts of money into a new project that might not sell, when they already have franchises that sell using a tried and tested formula?

This is why I tell people to do it themselves. You're never going to change these people's minds without some substantial point to make.

Making an indie production that satisfies the needs of this untapped market would demonstrate to major developers to experiment more than no petition or online video series ever could.

As for games being homogeneous:

What games are you playing?

There are so many many many games out there that this just doesn't make the industry justice.

Did you for instance know that family entertainment titles and sports games make up of more than half of the entire video game market?

I can guarantee you that forced male, white protagonist don't even make up 10% of the total amount of games being made.

If we're going to talk about true equality, we should really be advocating for women's leaugue sports games. Oddly enough, nobody seems to care about that.

 

[Celianna]

I agree but there are some holes in the logic.


Firstly, many advocates of female perspectives in narratives also argue for men's lack of understanding of the female perspective - case in point female stereotypes used by male authors. If males consistently write poor female characters, as is being claimed by many, then that does throw into question a lot of men's ability to relate to the experiences of women.

Because they don't treat them as characters, but as objects they push their own views onto of how a women should be. That is the flaw of many games. Instead of writing a character with struggles, they write how they think a women should be or act (... or they're there for decoration), when in reality, women aren't all that much different from men. But the biggest issue is that they write women as secondary characters, and that means it's easy to fall into the trap of stereotypes, such as the romantic love interest, or the damsel in distress, or a 'reason' to motivate the main character to do what they must do (think The Last of Us).
It's not that men are unable to relate to women - it's that plenty let their own views of women warp how they should write them and use them. Instead of thinking in terms of 'this character lost an important person to them and they undergo a journey of accepting the loss and moving on with their life' they think 'our guy needs a reason to go out on an adventure, let's create a girl that's his crush and that's why he sets out to save the world because he loves her'.


There's actually nothing wrong with that kind of plot, but when it's pretty much the only thing you see when it comes to the roles these writers push women into, it gets tiring, and honestly we want to see more variety.

Also, I can't even begin to count all the times I've heard women themselves say that their troubles and experiences are complete different and impossible to understand for men...


Doesn't exactly inspire confidence.


When you hear the rhetoric of people like Anita Sarkeesian, you're very much left with a feeling of "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

Like I said, due to our history, we have our differences. Things like rape is very predominantly a women's issue. Things like having a career and not choosing to mother children is also a women's issue. Things like walking out on the street and getting harassed by men is also another women's issue. These are things men don't often experience, or flat out don't even think about. But that doesn't mean the core struggles are difficult to understand.


Any man can obviously relate to not being in control of their own life, or fearing another person because they think that person might harm them, or even outright kill them (rape and street harassment). And any man can understand the struggle of people being against what he wants to do, and hopelessly trying to live in a world that demands things from him that honestly he doesn't care about (career and child rearing). As you can see; the struggles and feelings are the same, it is genderless.

As for relating to characters - you miss a very basic part of experience, which is the visceral.


It's not that a male character can't relate to a female character, it's probably more that they can't see themselves as being a woman, and being the main character is a large part of the video game experience.

Yes, that is my point. Men are fully capable of relating to women, it is that their own perceived connotations and growing up in a society where men, the majority of the time, are portrayed as the main character in any kind of media, so it ends up with these men not accepting a main character that is a woman.

I think, at least personally, while I can relate to a female character as a someone else, she wouldn't function as well as a digital projection of me into a game, because after all, I am not a woman.

You are human though. I don't go around playing every single game, or reading every single story, and go 'welp he's a dude, can't relate to him, and it's totally not me, ladidah'. Then again, personally, I never think of myself as the main character, I think of them as a person who has their own hopes and dream and struggles to go through. I actually hate it when games want me to project myself into the shoes of the main character, you end up with pretty flat characters then (Like Link from Zelda).

That women feel this as well to some degree is obvious by the fact that there are so many asking for more female protagonists.

Incorrect. It is because we're overlooked. We see these awesome games, and play them and be fans of them, and do this for years. And then we notice a pattern. Hey ... all these games, they're pretty much all about guys. Why aren't there any games about girls? And if there are games about girls, why must they all be clad in pink, and be about fashion or raising ponies? Can't a girl shoot some space aliens like a lot of these other awesome games? Why are girls pushed into a genre they can't escape from?


It is the same thing for people of colour, they're even more underrepresented than women in videogames. All they see is white men in pretty much every game (luckily that is changing lately). And they wonder; the world isn't made up of white men, so where are the black women and men?

If women didn't care one way or another, and gender truly was irrelevant, then it wouldn't matter of the majority of protagonists were either male or female.

Yeah, that'd be great! Unfortunately, we don't live in a world where gender is irrelevant, and it VERY much matters, so we have to have discussions like these and eradicate the discrepancy of the lack of female characters. Talking is good.

A male hero falling in love with woman functions as an allegory for me and my life because I am a straight male. It does nor function as well as an allegory for people who're neither male nor straight, and therein lies the issue.

Uh. No. I can fall in love, therefor I can relate to this man who fell in love. Remember how I said I was playing dating games geared towards men? And I still enjoyed and related to it? It's because, even though the main character was a guy, and the people he was dating were women, I had a lot of fun and could relate because I can date and fall in love with the personalities that these women had, and I'm as straight as they come.

I also agree that there should be more stories for people who're not like me, when you consider how many who seems to want it. I just don't believe that it's necessary to villainize people for making a certain narrative, or people who enjoy that narrative in the process(not saying you are).


--


But again, to make the assumption that there is some sexist conspiracy, rather than simply a bunch of rather simple men who're self-projecting themselves into their own personal fantasy land, seems like a large leap to me.

When you consider why there's a lack of minorities in games, you realize, that yeah, sometimes people need to be called out. Sometimes people need to say "Hey, so where are the women in this game?" or "Why must every character be a straight cis white male?". And sometimes the reason for why they're not there tends to turn for the worse. You could say it's simply because they don't know or understand people that aren't like them, but more often than not, it's due to their own prejudice that they don't include them.


A misogynist isn't going to include women or give her any meaningful role in their game, unless it is to dehumanize them (for example, they're simply eye candy).


A racist isn't going to include people of colour in their game, unless it is to dehumanize them (for example, they're the villains and you kill them).


A homophobic isn't going to include homosexuals in their game, unless it is to dehumanize them (for example, they're compared to pedophiles and portrayed as being sick).


We're all a little bit sexist, a little bit racist, and a little bit any kind of ism - and that is really just part of the bigger problem. We grow up in a society that makes us like this, and that is why we see media reflecting these views. If we lived in a society where this kind of prejudice didn't exist, we'd be seeing fricking rainbows in games, representing every single person in the world. But unfortunately, wedo live in a society like this, and that is why the majority of game developers are male, and the majority of main characters are also male. Not a black male, not a gay male, not an effeminate male - but a straight cis white male. Because that is who society favours, and that is what is reflected back into games.


So yeah, people do need to be called out - especially if their representation of such minorities makes your stomach churn - because change happens when you talk about it. Discussions like these are good.

 

[A-Moonless-Night]

I understand what you're saying, Hian, but it does not make sense for every single person to make their own ideal video game. As an indie game developer, you know how much work is involved. Not everyone wants to do that or has the drive to do it. It's like saying that because a bunch of people want chocolate milk at McDonalds, and McDonalds doesn't provide it, that they should just make their own (actually, I don't know if they do or not, but it's just an example). We're not a self-sufficient society.

The problem with men not relating to women is that men are basically programmed by society to not relate to them. Being a woman is seen as something bad and terrible, hence why men are laughed at when they wear a dress and we have sayings like "you throw like a girl" and "you're such a pussy". I don't really want to go on a feminist tirade here, but that's basically what it boils down to. A girl can be a tomboy and no one has a problem, but if a boy 'acts like a girl', he's resented by his peers and told to "man up". Not saying there aren't problems on both sides of the coin, but this is the part that relates to this discussion.

The audience I'm talking about is the audience that plays video games. I can understand the whole 'let's keep with this target audience because we want to keep selling games', but people like something different. Change is good. You gotta take a risk every once in a while. To be honest, it's a little bit sad that a section of the population is thought of as a risk, but hey.

I was talking about the homogeneity of characters in games, not the whole game in general.

I agree about the representation of women in sport, but don't see how that is more important that women's representation in media. We're constantly told that it's a trivial issue, like most of the things women complain about (note sarcasm), and we should be doing other important things (like, I don't know, physically going out and rescuing women in third world countries). I'm from New Zealand and one of our top sports is women's netball (behind rugby and rugby league, haha). Actually, I think we have a pretty good mix of men's and women's international teams, but you can guess which gender gets paid more. That's a story for another day, though. Kinda off-topic.

 

[Celianna]

The audience I'm talking about is the audience that plays video games. I can understand the whole 'let's keep with this target audience because we want to keep selling games', but people like something different. Change is good. You gotta take a risk every once in a while. To be honest, it's a little bit sad that a section of the population is thought of as a risk, but hey

You know what absolutely baffles me? There's is a HUGE audience (mostly women and gay men) for English dating games featuring women as the protagonist, yet again, I can only think of one western game that caters to this huge audience. It is left untapped, as if they don't exist. Talk about missing a huge opportunity here.


To illustrate how huge this audience is, let's (I know this isn't probably completely accurate), compare the likes of RPG Maker's facebook page to ... Voltage Inc's facbeook page, a company that releases English dating games for women. 26k likes for RPG Maker, compared to a whopping 602k likes (more than half a million!) for Voltage Inc.


Voltage Inc. is a Japanese company, and they've been translating their games to English for the past two years or so. Japan is definitely ahead when it comes to catering to this huge audience of women who like dating games. The western world? Zip. Zero.

 

[Ksi]

The thing is, men have sisters, mothers, female cousins and women they interact with every day. If they actually observe these people (as good writers do, often) there are things they can pick up to help them write better females in general. Also, empathy, putting oneself in another's shoes.

There are a lot of fantasy writers out there who do write decent women. Maybe not fully realistic, and yes, maybe they break out the chain-mail bikini from time to time, but decent women non-the-less. That's the mark of a good writer.

Women writers are expected to know how to write men well enough to engage with the audience, so men can't use that excuse anymore.

I have to admit that my first video game female - the ones I still enjoy because of their strength - was Katt, Nina and Bleu from Breath of Fire II. You have the typical three to one ratio, but the women characters are all strong, even in they fall into the typical magical tropes. (Bar Katt. Katt is the glass cannon bruiser of the game and she can kick tail like no other~) Each is different to the other. Nina is a magician, true; shy and proper and seemingly the perfect girl, but she has the strength to attempt to sacrifice herself for her friends and the world - turning into a brainless bird. Bleu is also a magician, but she's flirty and very, very wise. She's also, while rather busty and pretty, quite old. Then there's the tomboy Katt who is dumb as nails, clueless and naive, but still loyal and fiery, always there when push comes to shove.

This group showed me that women could be strong characters in games (let's not start on Clarice and Tiga who die for their love, or the shaman sisters who are all just a tad crazy, naive and kinda pushy or the witch, Nympho, who didn't think she was worthy of love and became a drunk or Rand's mother, Daisy who kicks the church out and then sacrifices herself to save her son, or Petape who chooses to destroy her kingdom instead of allow an imposter to take over the throne, or the Evil General of the Highlander army who tries to resurrect an ancient power for the 'good' of the people, or the phantom thief, Patty, who steals in order to fund the resistance or, least of all, the Hero's mother who sacrifices herself to lock away the ancient evil that threatens the world.) And all this from a SNES game.

Yeah, lots of strong and varied kinds of women in the one game - not the whole series, just the single game. Then there's ones like Chrono Trigger, with Ayla, Marle and Lucca; or Star Ocean 2 with Rena; or any of the Suikoden games with so many strong and fragile women - both magical and physical based.

Personally I prefer to write female mains (though I've done men, too. I just enjoy women more). I like to spice things up, too, when it comes to roles - a big strong ex-pirate man who was born a gifted healer; the woman afraid of the dark who loves to explore and make maps; the young princess, pregnant and taking on one of the darkest and most dangerous dungeons to escape from captivity; the knightly knight who aims to take the hand of a fair lady by completing three quests and his ever-faithful squire who hides her true gender because while in her country women are allowed in the army, in his they aren't; the psychopathic sorceress who kills her own son in order to power the machine that will make her a God and the father of said son who was a one-time-fling because he boasted of his magical powers (when he didn't have any), aiming to avenge the child's death.

I think the sex doesn't matter. The genre doesn't matter. Have a romance, or a sci-fi. Make a game about a priestess in training or a warrior monk who needs to save the world. Characterisation is the most important thing.

One of the best RM games I ever played was called Clouded Hearts. The graphics were decent RTP usage (later in the game, at the start it was... not that great), the story was okay, but nothing to write home about. The characters, though, stayed with me and made the game unforgettable. It's the same with The Way - how many remember the actual story vs those who remember the characters? And the strongest character that stood out was a woman in a mask.

I kinda went off point, but I'll say this - focus on creating well-rounded characters.

 

[hian]

Great post cel. I have a lot of thoughts on it, but I've been writing all of this on my cell, so it's getting tiresome. When I can get on my computer I'll make a lengthy reply, just forgive me if it takes a bit of time. I have a kid to fed and put to bed, and a bottle of sake to drink before can rig my computer back up.