Female protagonist or Male Protagonist?

[Sharm]

@RetroBoy The analysis I've seen that removed the "casual" games to get the heavy male majority you're referring to also removed the info for RPGs, which is another genre with a heavy female presence. I think females are the majority for RPGs in the west but I can't remember if there was research to back that up or if it's my own observations. There's also a reinforced bias in many game genres, where the reason why there are fewer female players is because they only market and make games for males. It happens a lot with toys too. Every girl I knew growing up loved action figures but there were only 3 female options in the whole toy world and we all owned all three. So the toy companies went "girls only buy 3 toys, boys buy more!" and stayed convinced of their bias that girls don't like action figures. Lego suddenly started making a female line when they actually looked at the stats of their consumers and were surprised to learn that girls bought their toys at all. Anyway, my point is that these stats are in themselves biased and are a poor choice for building an entire game around.

 

[RetroBoy]

@RetroBoy The analysis I've seen that removed the "casual" games to get the heavy male majority you're referring to also removed the info for RPGs, which is another genre with a heavy female presence.[1] I think females are the majority for RPGs in the west [2] but I can't remember if there was research to back that up or if it's my own observations. There's also a reinforced bias in many game genres, where the reason why there are fewer female players is because they only market and make games for males. It happens a lot with toys too. Every girl I knew growing up loved action figures but there were only 3 female options in the whole toy world and we all owned all three.[3] So the toy companies went "girls only buy 3 toys, boys buy more!" and stayed convinced of their bias that girls don't like action figures. Lego suddenly started making a female line when they actually looked at the stats of their consumers and were surprised to learn that girls bought their toys at all. Anyway, my point is that these stats are in themselves biased and are a poor choice for building an entire game around[4].

1. I think that is a very specific study, the one I am referring to is from 2014 so not the most up-to-date but it did not exclude the RPG Market.
2. I disagree strongly. I've seen nothing to support this. My personal experience is that most "Gamers" (especially in MMOs) are men. I'm not asserting women do not exist but I'd argue they are far rarer. Pokemon really brought in a lot of female RPGers (which was great) but they're still rare. Loading up my DS and looking at all the friends I have added, I have seven females. The rest are all men and most of these people were added at random via Friend Safari in Pokemon X/Y. So I wasn't screening gender or anything like that.
3. Studies show that young girls (both in humans and primates) prefer to play with Dolls and more "traditionally" female toys. This is why the majority of the market is for these things. If Mattel or Hasbro thought there was a market for action figures with females we would see more. Of course there are always going to be exceptions to the rule but its important we recognize the exceptions.
4. The stats they are not biased, they're basic data. Its not malicious. Its not spiteful. I'm not saying we should exclude women or there should be no female protagonists. I am just asserting basic facts. In the hopes of not looking like a total jackass I am going to try to explore the psychology of this a little with you.

If you find that females rarely partake in activities and preferences that men traditionally hold, how much of that is psychological and how much is cultural and how does this impact us as game developers?

Well, we could completely ignore the market trends but its important to note that if you're trying to maximize your profit its probably not a good idea.

So, why is it that females (both in humans and primates) prefer baby dolls and softer colors while boys prefer more vibrant colors and mechanical toys?

Well, its not sexism it comes down to basic nature. The male and female brain are not wired the same way, we do not (instinctively) receive the same chemical rewards from the same things. Men and boys are much more predisposed to risk taking and females to care-giving. This is an instinctual part of us. We can fight it, we can deny it, but its there.

Its only in recent generations that we've started to try to deny this or think there is something wrong with it.

The simple fact that "Men" are typically the avatars of video games because in essence most video games are about violence and combat and though there are always exceptions, most people don't like seeing women get hurt... and a combat orientated game where the protagonist cannot be hurt is a less exciting experience.

These "Gender Roles" (Dirty Words, I know) are the result of basic biology. Men go to war. We are stronger. We are much more expendable. Meanwhile, the female of the species (especially attractive women, mothers, sisters, etc.) are things that men are hardwired to want to protect. While women are hardwired to be much more in tune with social and empathy than males. Men get superior upper body strength, women get to life givers, mothers and the reason we stupidly march into war with one another.

In a video game where combat is a major point people are not typically going to want to see women getting hurt. They're also going to have to train themselves to get past the basic instinct that "men are protectors" and "women are to be protected."

I feel like I am rambling but its been late. Hopefully this will clear things up. There's a reason that fighters like Sonya and ChunLi are used far less often than their male counterparts despite the fact that (ChunlLi at least) is an extremely strong fighter.

 

[Frozen_Phoenix]

I don't care about the gender, but the stereotype jrpg characters, both male and female, are super annoying.

 

[Sharm]

@RetroBoy I wasn't trying to say that men and women aren't different, or even that all of the data was opposite of what you think, I was trying to say that the studies you've been referencing are themselves biased. It's really easy to do, even with what you think is cold hard data. My brother is a statistician, which he does for a living, and we talk about this kind of thing all the time. So lets use the doll thing as an example. Yep, girls totally have a preference for playing with dolls in a traditionally female way. This is very true. But that does not mean that they dislike or would not want their parents to buy action figures, nor that using action figures to do female styled play is wrong somehow. The girls could buy both types if the option was available, but places like Mattel will actively cut the possibility of female toys from a line up and replace them with a male character, even if that female is a major character from the show and the character they're replacing it with is extremely minor and not likely to sell at all.

It is true that people, especially children, like to watch and read and play with things that they feel represent themselves. This can be anything from gender to skin/hair color to favorite hobbies, it's odd to me to focus on only gender if you're going to be playing to this bias. So we have a girl that wants to buy a humanoid toy. She has the choice between babydolls and fashion dolls that have girl figures and action figures that have boy figures. She's probably going to choose the "girl" toys, regardless to wether or not she wanted an action figure. This just means that she cares more about a doll that represents her than she does what type of doll it is, it doesn't mean that action figures are only for boys.

I would LOVE to see a study done where children were given the choice between a non-character specific equivalent of a Barbie, an old school GI Joe (the kind that had clothing options) and a She-Ra and a Ninja Turtle and see which they ones they played with more. I very much doubt that the girls wouldn't touch the she-ra and ninja turtles, and I also doubt that the boys wouldn't be interested in the dress up dolls at some point. The reason I chose those is because I do agree that there is a difference in what attracts a boy or girl to a figure, but I think that an action figure that's actually made with girls in mind (like She-Ra) is going to be more useful in a study like this than having Scarlet from GI Joe. It's also why I didn't want to use Ken for the fashion doll.

Yep, totally showing my age here by referencing so many 80's toys. Oh well.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the male bias in video games is a cultural one, isn't as big in the RPG genre as it is FPS games, and isn't necessarily one you're going to want to propagate, especially since the gender of the MC is going to have very little impact on the sales of the game. It's more important to focus on the point of your game and what would best support that.

 

[RetroBoy]

We're from the same generation it seems. I am not bailing on you but it is 2:08am. So I really do need to sleep. The type of studies you're talking about do exist and they're the reason things are the way they are now. During the development of major toy franchises (most of which exploded in the 80s) a lot of these studies were done. It is also the reason that the She-Ra line of He-Man Toys ended up being more doll-like with realistic hair, etc. Because given the choice the girls would choose those kind of toys over more traditional action figures. If you want to continue the conversation let me know and I'll reply in the morning. I think its interesting.

That said, its not fair to just throw out 51 years of market research by just saying "Bias."

The way things exist today are because of existing trends and market preferences. Anyways, I need to crash or else I'm going to start to think and wake up.

*Salutes*

Night!

 

[Celianna]

Can we stop referring to women as females? Especially when in the same sentence you don't say males but men/boys instead.

@RetroBoy to say "if you exclude X, and Y then Men become the majority" is ridiculous. You can't exclude certain genres just because you think they don't count. I can just as easily say "Well, if we exclude sports, FPS, and MMO games, then women are the majority". But I'm not, let's not be exclusive here.

The point was ... women play games. They may not play the same games as men most of the time, there's still a big rift especially in sport games where women account for 2% of players, but they do still play games. To ignore them in the RPG genre is to ignore 1/3 of your player base, that's insane.

The statistics are also sometimes a bit skewed. For example, Dragon Age, a western RPG, has about 48% women playing the game (deviating away from the 26% average). Pokemon has 39% of players who are women, also an outlier. Pokemon Go on the other hand, the majority of players (63%) are actually women.

Can all be explained that women will gravitate towards the socialization aspects of a game - this is why they're more interested in stories, character customization and interaction with other characters. No wonder Pokemon Go was wildly popular among them.

Reminds me of someone on this forum that was making a farming simulation game. It looks super cute, but the creator most likely did not take into account that the majority of his playerbase will be women. Therefor, a lot of the sprite art for the characters - the women in the game - are pretty much made to be fan service for men. Nothing wrong with that, except the women playing their game will probably be disappointed they don't get the same fan service in return for the men of the game.

If you want to cater to men exclusively, be my guest. But remember, women in the RPG genre exist, and they will play your game if you try to include them, too.

 

[Caitlin]

I vary my main characters, sometimes it has a female lead and other times a male lead is more important, while other times, I have two characters (both a male and a female). For me, it depends on the story that I want to tell.

 

[RetroBoy]

Can we stop referring to women as females? Especially when in the same sentence you don't say males but men/boys instead.

You mean in the sentence where I included primates in the sentence?

@RetroBoy to say "if you exclude X, and Y then Men become the majority" is ridiculous. You can't exclude certain genres just because you think they don't count. I can just as easily say "Well, if we exclude sports, FPS, and MMO games, then women are the majority". But I'm not, let's not be exclusive here.

Of course it matters. We are talking about an engine that builds RPG Games. Not First person shooters or Sports games. Look at the attachment I posted, in all of the RPG Genres, men make up nearly THREE TIMES the female player base. I think "catering" is exactly the reason so many game companies have a hard time. Instead of just making fun games or going with things that work everyone is trying to check the maximum number of diversity boxes and that isn't good storytelling.

This is just close to home for me because I work in the comic book industry and the recent "women in comics" has devastated our sales and done massive damage to the brand over at Marvel. I realize that isn't RPGs but I imagine the readership statistics aren't too different from the one's posted above.

Also, nothing here explains why fighters like ChunLi go under used competitively when they are known to be high performers.

Seriously though, dogs are put to bed. I will check back on this in the morning. Hopefully we can discuss this like mature adults instead of people taking offense. I seriously have no ill-will here.

 

[Celianna]

@RetroBoy Are we not speaking like adults...?

66% is like 2/3, not three times as much (which would be 3/4). That's still a huge amount of people to ignore. It's like going into a conversation with three people, two of them say they want pizza, the last one says they want hamburgers. You decide to ignore the last person and listen to the ones who want pizza ... but never go for hamburgers every once in a while?

Like I said, you're free to ignore them as much as you'd like, if you want to cater only to men, be my guest. My game only caters to women, no matter how many men want me to cater to them, too. It's a conscious decision of mine, whereas generally, it's an unconscious decision for most.

Sometimes, you have to look to see what your userbase demographics are, and listen to them. If 1/3 of them want hamburgers, what's preventing you from adding hamburgers as an option?

 

[Pine Towers]

When did the discussion about male or female protagonists became about male or female players?

Lara Croft being female didn't stopped me from playing Tomb Raider. I hope Nathan Drake being male didn't stopped female players from playing Uncharted. Both are "Indiana Jones" style games that shows how indifferent the sex of the protagonist is. Resident Evil allowed the player to play as either a male or female in its games (Chris/Jill in RE1 and Leon/Claire in RE2), differing only some side paths and puzzles. One of the best games of the Nintendo 64 is Perfect Dark, with a female protagonist.

Spoiler

And see that every example given (in my first post on the topic or in this) about female protagonists shows female protagonists that aren't female just because, or that even caters to this - Joanna Dark could be male and the game would be perfect - pun intended - anyway without the need to change the plot.

In the end it doesn't matter if the player base is 60% women or 40% martians or 15% dinossaurs, if the game tells a good story, with good mechanics, it will win the audience. And to tell a good story, you first need to know if having a male and/or female protagonist will make it better/worse/unaffected.

 

[RetroBoy]

High Fantasy is 36%/64%
Japanese is 33%/66%
Western RPG is 26%/74%
Action RPG is 20%/80%
Turn-based Strategy is 11%/89%

Females: 126
Males: 373

Which is just on average under one third about (2.9ish).

So its MUCH closer to 1/3rd than 2/3rds. In fact, its a little less than 1/3rd.

It's like going into a conversation with three people, two of them say they want pizza, the last one says they want hamburgers. You decide to ignore the last person and listen to the ones who want pizza ... but never go for hamburgers every once in a while?

This is exactly right, the problem is with folks asserting that the female presence is such a dominant (or under-represented) force in the industry. So they must be catered too or appeased, which ultimately produces works that they themselves rarely enjoy. Again, this can be seen in the comic book industry and in gaming as a whole.

The "problem" we as developers face is the pressure to abandon traditional storytelling methods and adhere to modern ascetics which will not be as timeless as the narrative traditions that came before. Again, please keep in mind that I have a "Sex" selection option in my game. You can choose to be male or female. You can even go full Ghostbusters 3 and be all females if that is what the player chooses.

That said, my game is a large project and I am not using a traditional narrative. But for those who do want to go with something more traditional (like Legend of Zelda, FF7, etc.), they're going to find it difficult to garner the same success if they are "pandering" to a female audience and treading on eggshells.

Case-in-point, even the women here in this thread who are calling for consideration are (by their own admission) not exactly "Girly-Girls" with Sham conveying that she sought out action figures as a young girl, etc.

Your analogy is completely spot on, but you're just seeing it from the wrong angle.

Lets imagine you run a pizza store. You make AWESOME pizza. Everyone loves your pizza. Then someone comes in and demands a hamburger. So, you decide to change up your menu. You give less space for making pizzas and spend less money on pizza resources but now you sell burgers too. Only, the only people enjoying the burgers are about a third of your customer base and the quality of your pizza has been lowered.

That is the best analogy I can give. You might automatically think "Whys it matter?" now you've got a third more customers?

But you don't, not really, because the people demanding hamburgers still would have purchased a pizza. All you've managed to do is alienate the majority of your consumers. Its bad business.

As for the Lara Croft example given, I refer back to my original post... what were the original Tomb Raider games about?

Platforming Adventure, exploration, and polygon boobies.

What was Uncharted about?

Much the same thing right... but which one has more fighting?

Of course, Lara has since undergone the Ripley treatment and become a badass but that was not the premise of her game. The premise of her game was that she was a Tomb Raider, an acrobat, a gymnast, etc.

Even her use of firearms as the predominant weapon is a way of distancing herself from her attackers so we as male consumers are not "triggered" (for lack of a better word) by seeing her getting her butt-kicked.

If you're thinking "Men won't like playing games with female protagonists" I think you're misunderstanding me. Likewise, I'm quite sure that there are many women that play male characters (I know three girls who used to play male characters with me back when we played Archage).

Likewise, Link is beloved by many; men and women alike. But that said, who is more popular?

Shulk or Zelda?

Who is more iconic, Shulk or Zelda?

The Gender Roles do not NEED to deter people or be perceived as a negative thing. Men and women traditionally play different roles in stories and there is nothing wrong with that. And statistics show that the majority of people (men and women) prefer these traditional narratives than when "progressiveness" is forced on them in a ham-fisted manner.

Its a bit like the communism of consumerism.

You run a pizza joint, a few loud people come in demanding hamburgers so you have to change things up. Then to keep the doors open you need to force every third person to buy a hamburger. Only, maybe not every third person WANTS that hamburger. But now people are getting hamburger topping on their pizza whether they like it or not. Its the only way to give "everyone" what they want.

 

[HarmonyGames]

All right, to sum this up. Retroboy is right, in the main post; I am talking about JRPGs, which is mostly male protagonists take the lead. I will stick with the male protagonist.

However, on the other side, I think developers are trying to make more female protagonists because they want to boost their sales, especially for adult players.
If your target market is children, you don't want to bother about gender.

I would be interested with game covers "surrounded" by girls rather than boys.

This is my personal preference, anyway.

 

[Kes]

You might find this thread helpful. It not only asks a very similar question, but the way the poll is constructed, you have additional information.

EDIT
I have just read your last post more carefully where you claim that developers are makeing more female protagonists "because they want to boost their sales." Like all sweeping generalizations, that one is not automatically true.

My last game, A Timely Intervention had a female protagonist. I wrote it that way not as a way to boost sales, but because the story I wanted to tell worked better if the protagonist was female. I think it would be very difficult to get the evidence to back up your assumption, but I do know from a couple of other developers that I know well that their female protagonists were the result of the needs of the story.

 

[kirbwarrior]

Like, does your hero marry the princess and have kids and a happily ever after when you win the game?

I actually like it games where gender isn't considered for these questions. This is a fiction world where supernatural tends to crop up all over. Why not have kids with the same sex?

For instance, just setting it up so it reads "She" instead of "He" if they are female throughout your whole game is extra work.

Ugh, it's so much work. Actor names make it bearable, but still annoying.

if you're trying to maximize your profit

Then you're making your game wrong. I can easily tell the difference between games that were trying to be good games and trying to be sold.

Lara Croft being female didn't stopped me from playing Tomb Raider.

Lara Croft was made female for male players (although this was addressed).

Given the choice, I'll play female characters. I usually make games with female leads. But I can't think of a traditional rpg with a female lead. Final Fantasy 5 and 6 come close, but 5 is really about all four of them and 6 doesn't have a lead (it tries to make you think Terra and Celes are the leads). And Dragon Quest 3 plays on gender choices hilariously;

"Ah yes, the son of the great hero Ortega!- I mean daughter. Yes, clearly daughter!"

And that's because your gender doesn't matter in the least. Dragon Quest 4 does something similar, even with the implied ending where you 'get with' your childhood friend that's female.

I am aware that 'studies show' people tend to play characters or identify with characters like them, but I never see this. It's often the opposite. As a random example, I and many of my friends watched My Little Pony. I was never a rabid fan (I rarely am), but a lot of my friends had favorite characters and greatly disliked certain characters. The ones they dislike are the ones most like them, and the ones they loved are usually opposite.

 

[RetroBoy]

Then you're making your game wrong. I can easily tell the difference between games that were trying to be good games and trying to be sold.

Anyone can. Every single game you see published by a professional company was designed to raise capitol. If something isn't going to be profitable only a fool or an ideologue would sink money into it.

 

[kirbwarrior]

I guess I need to say it different. There's a difference between trying to make a game with the intent that it will be sold well, and the intent of making a game good that can make a profit.

Yes, both are made for a profit, but the mentality is completely different. One is based on money first then game design second, the other game design first then money second.

 

[Sharm]

@RetroBoy Yes, because I like video games and comic books and action figures and building things means that I must hate dress up and princesses and romance and such. Because no one could ever like both. *rolls eyes* (If you missed my blatent sarcasm, I totally like both, and growing up I was considered the girliest girl in the neighborhood.)

Let's continue the food analagy. You want to start a restaurant. Most people like pizza, but there are already lots of existing pizza places who make higher quality food than you can possibly make. There is also a third of the market who like hamburgers, but hamburger joints are extremely rare. Would it really be better business to go into competition with an already saturated market, or would it make more sense to go where their is little competition and you have the chance to corner the market? And who's to say that the pizza lovers wouldn't like a break from pizza now and then? Honestly this is my main problem with the AAA gaming industry these days. There used to be such variety but now everyone is making pizza and even the fans are getting sick of it. I just want some tika masala.

You keep missing a key part of what many of us have been saying so let me try again. This is way more important than the other stuff so if you choose to respond to only one, please choose this. Chasing after popular opinion to make anything is a terrible way to create a game. Anyone who has succeeded in the industry would back me up on this. Other industries too, really. If you do you'll end up with something uninspired, tired, and derivative. Successful games may look at marketing data, but they don't chase it. They make the absolute best game they can and wether they happen to make that game with a woman or man as the lead has way less to do with the success in sales than it does how well that person fills that lead role. You should choose your lead based on the game your creating, not an opinion poll.

 

[RetroBoy]

I guess being the bogan Australian redneck I am I'm not used to encountering many Tomboy Girlie Girls. I'd imagine they're rarer than either Tomboys or Girlie Girls but maybe I'm just bigoted. I can only speak from personal experience here.

"Successful games may look at marketing data, but they don't chase it. They make the absolute best game they can and wether they happen to make that game with a woman or man as the lead has way less to do with the success in sales than it does how well that person fills that lead role. You should choose your lead based on the game your creating, not an opinion poll."

I agree with you... fundamentally. That said, I think GAMEPLAY is a much higher priority than diversity. Even more important than story (in this medium) but you need to consider who you're marketing too. I think if you ignore that you will fail to please an audience. At the end of the day I am of the mind that it is better to please an audience than to pander to a demographic. That might seem very convoluted but in essence if people like red shirts, make red shirts.

I just feel like stuff like this...



Is not going to stick around another 10-15 years and won't stand the test of time and neither will stuff like this...



The "Ball-Busting" Fem-Dom is going to be as cringy as big hair from the 80s.

The problem with "Female Heroes" is all too often people will try for them to impersonate men. They do not capture or illustrate the admirable qualities of womanhood. Its like every woman needs to be clad in skin-tight leather and a kungfu master who can smash them boyz good or a clone of Ripley (Who I love for the record). Meanwhile, femininity (a love for beauty, a gentle heart, empathy, patience, perseverance) these are ignored. Heinously under utilized for the over-sexualization of women and the underlying fear that if a female lead is "too feminine" she will be seen as weak.

Of course, not every heroine falls into this trap but many do -- especially in video games.

The "problem" is that the power-fantasy for men and women is typically very different in some very subtle ways. So, writing for women is significantly harder because you either have to be very talented (or a woman, maybe both) or shoe-horn them into more masculine perceptions of heroism. I think the "poor representation" of female heroes (not the under-representation) does more detriment than good.

But at this point I kind of feel like my point is being lost and I don't want to be combative. So I am just going to leave it there I think. I don't mind if no one agrees with me, so long as they can see there is logic behind my perspective on things.

 

[fireflyege]

@Frozen_Phoenix is right, I am so sick of the guy that is chosen by the goddess to defeat evil with his insignificant buddies and espicially the healer sidekick which has a crush on the main character.

I want to see a delusional, evil healer once in a while something like ''I am just keeping them alive just because they are my meatshields'' type of healer. Maybe a psionic that is mentally sick itself aka the Malkavian type, you can even make the madness the source of its power to keep things interesting. In LoL Zilean has this theme with his chronomancy.

@RetroBoy well making good female characters are rare. Like you said they are either kick their butts, too mysterious 4 u or sexy sidekick. There are not so many RPG's that can do more than those three. I am trying to make all my characters interesting with also keeping their gameplay unique. But I will tell you, even I spend days making decisions and wish for another person to accompany me with all these things. Even if I can get the notetags right, I do not think it fits the character and poof it is null and void. You need to understand your characters. You get to know each of them if you are gonna be successful. My healer is a woman who puts on the happy priestess mask but I am sure as the player understands how she is familiar with bloodshed and actually ask themselves how can she even act like happy. I did not think that when I was creating that character but it was interesting knowing her slowly.

To be a good RPG game maker, you must also be an imaginative writer. You do not need to even be good, just creative. For example I would have so little trust in myself if I was writing a book, but game dialogues are not that hard espicially if you know your characters well.

 

[kirbwarrior]

the underlying fear that if a female lead is "too feminine" she will be seen as weak.

Final Fantasy X-2 did alienate it's fans, who at first glance thought it was either trying to pander to the female market or perverted male market. But it was a fantastic game and I'd say had better gameplay than FFX. Part of Yuna's character in the first game was coming across 'weak' but subtly showing she wasn't. The sequel showed she was done being timid. And she was still very feminine (especially compared to her allies). I'd say it succeeded at making a jrpg with a feminine protagonist. But as you pointed out, the target audience didn't care, they just saw women changin clothes mid-combat and wrote it off. (I hate the idea of 'target audience' when making a game or fiction. I can figure out the target audience once it's made and change tiny details if necessary)

well making good female characters are rare

One (absolutely sexiest and shallow) method I've used is to make characters and the story, then once those are all done, switch up genders, looks, and any other 'surface' effects of characters. It's far from the best way to do things, but it can show a completely different character when all you do is change clothes, hair, and gender.
Another part is there are two types of female protagonists; ones that need to be female, and ones where the gender doesn't matter. Chell in Portal is female, but you could go the entire game without knowing it. Terra in FF6 wouldn't change if she was male (although 'he' may become hated for seeming 'pathetic'). And on the other side of things, Vaan from FF12 could be female and be the same character.
It's been pointed out already, but rpgs have combat-oriented parts to them. Protecting others. Saving the world. Peace through destruction. They aren't led easily to creation, nurturing, long-term activities, etc. The 'middle point' is some rpgs have relationship building, and some are focused on it. But a lot of 'feminine' things in a game tends to push it to another genre, namely ones where you can take combat out of the game.