Female protagonist or Male Protagonist?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by HarmonyGames, May 1, 2017.

?

Topic.

  1. Male

    12 vote(s)
    34.3%
  2. Female

    23 vote(s)
    65.7%
  1. Musashi

    Musashi Veteran Veteran

    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    205
    First Language:
    Portuguese
    I just want to say one thing: we, as independent developers, are usually 'bottom feeders', which means that we find most success in things the main industry is ignoring/not exploring because of the somewhat small fan-base, like turn based RPGs for example! We shouldn't look at the rules and design directions used by the main industry as some sort of golden and unbreakable rules, actually, we should go against them in most cases. If 30, 20 or even 10% of RPG gamers are woman and no one is making good games for them, you should explore this. If you want to focus on the other 70%, remember who you'll be competing with for their attention.

    And I never saw anyone giving up of playing an awesome game based on the main character's gender alone. Just make your characters cool and people will like them! I love playing with both =)
     
    #61
  2. RionFish

    RionFish Villager Member

    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    33
    First Language:
    English
    Primarily Uses:
    RMMV
    @kirbwarrior You're right, it's definitely a nurture vs. nature thing. I do agree that there's a person affected by them, but I feel as though that person starts out very basic. That starting personality shapes the way you experience things and what you take from them, so it's far from unimportant. Something I forgot, brain chemistry affects us a good amount too, such as with depression and so on. Physical ailments can change you too. It's probable that we'll never know for certain just how much of us is nurture or nature, I just personally skew it heavily toward nurture.

    The funny thing is, you'd probably think that about me. I react a lot based on instinct, because (I believe) I actually think a little slower than most people seem to. When I'm in conversations with more than one other person, I don't speak a lot because I'm so focused on what they're saying it's hard to form my own thoughts fast enough to get words in edgewise, and when I do say things even one on one they're usually off the top of my head and not thought through. I have a poor memory for most things too, which doesn't help anything. Except numbers, I remember numbers really well. Which goes to show that the way a person acts when around others and the things that go through their heads can contrast heavily. I would ramble more but I feel I'm getting fairly off topic.

    I think that protagonist of yours will go over well. As @Musashi said, in this indie industry it's easier to stand out if you head off the beaten path, and I think society as a whole trends toward wanting new concepts and not rehashed ones. Acceptance of non-binary genders is on the rise, so they should be a hit. I'll try to remember to keep an eye out for your game!
     
    #62
    kirbwarrior likes this.
  3. CleanWater

    CleanWater Independent Developer Veteran

    Messages:
    638
    Likes Received:
    738
    Location:
    Brazil
    First Language:
    PT-BR
    Primarily Uses:
    Other
    I like to play as male because... Well... I'm male. :biggrin:

    If a game has both options I always choose to be male, unless it's a story heavy based game which both story lines of each characters differ greatly (or complete each other somehow, i.e.: Resident Evil 2).

    I'm usually inclined to create characters that resemble myself IRL, so I always choose a male character with a dark medium hair, etc. I think we always tend to identify ourselves with the game character, but I played a lot of games with female characters with good plot, gameplay, etc and loved the game anyway.
     
    #63
  4. kirbwarrior

    kirbwarrior Veteran Veteran

    Messages:
    631
    Likes Received:
    327
    First Language:
    English
    Primarily Uses:
    N/A
    I don't know if I've ever played a game where I didn't share a trait with the protagonist, but the only game I've ever played where I feel like I identified with the game character was Dragon Quest 8. I often prefer playing games with characters quite different than myself and am intrigued when they seem uncomfortably different.
     
    #64
    CleanWater likes this.
  5. CleanWater

    CleanWater Independent Developer Veteran

    Messages:
    638
    Likes Received:
    738
    Location:
    Brazil
    First Language:
    PT-BR
    Primarily Uses:
    Other
    I think there are two main types of game: The one where you are the character and directly live the plot, and the one where you just watch the characters plot.

    Games like MMORPGs are the first example, you are literally living inside the game world. Games like traditional JRPGs are like the second example, even if you can have some decisions inside the game, you are just following the characters development, like in a manga or anime. You can/may identify yourself with the main protagonist, or with another character, but you are not the character him/herself.

    The decisions in JRPGs are more like a "what if" than an actual interaction.
     
    #65
    Tuomo L likes this.
  6. Titris Thrawns

    Titris Thrawns It's a trap! ...Or is it? Veteran

    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    Earth (Hopefully)
    First Language:
    English
    Primarily Uses:
    RMVXA
    @RetroBoy I believe the nature/nurture disagreements stem from what is regarded as biological 'fact' and how beliefs grow from where one falls on the nature/nurture spectrum. Like marketing data, it's all in how the science is interpreted. For brevity, and to alleviate backlash/wall-o-texts, I'll keep the biological discussion in the below spoiler tag.

    My primary intent was to support your idea that a developer who knows their target demographic is more likely to create a game that appeals to said demographic. My secondary point was to tease out how we interrupt this demographic data. When we simplify marketing data to 'Men are the majority and play male characters, thus we, as devs, should favor male protags' we open ourselves up to criticism and close off opening games & gaming to other demographics. This is what I believe @Tuomo L , @AnnTenna , @Guiguimu , @Sharm and others' argument is; that the data that is being used to show males as the dominate consumer of games is flawed and should not be weighted as heavily, or at all, in our development decisions. I agree with them on principle, gaming should not be about a gender role, masculinity or femininity, unless that is the expressed desire of a developer. The fact that discussing marketing data leads us to talk about basic biology of humans tells me that data interpretation is nuanced and there is merit to dissecting why marketing data gives us the values it does. I'll continue that thread in the spoiler.

    To be fair and upfront, I 'hail' from the Chiss Ascendancy, which I think was Independent affiliated with the Empire? Or is that a "Legend' now? But seriously, I'm more of a Chiss Picard. Cause... why not? *shrugs*:kaoeh:


    Your example & explanation is what I would call 'False fact or universal truth taken from improper interpretation of biological & evolutionary studies'.
    To wit; Because primates go to war, does not allow us to conclude that males are 'hard-wired' to fight or that they 'need' to be violent as part of their biology. Correlation does not mean causation. Studying the precipitating forces leading to violence and war is necessary to get the full picture. To ignore these forces and say 'well, it's just natural for males to be aggressive' oversimplifies and ignores future and evolving evidence. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/experiments-in-philosophy/201202/why-are-men-so-violent talks to the male warrior hypothesis that I believe you ascribe to. My key point here is, you appear to taking this hypothesis as a theory or law of human behavior science. It's critical that we do not conflate hypothesis (Male warriors) with 'facts' or laws of science (Gravity). To think otherwise means we are enslaving ourselves to someone's narrative. Or, in the case of male warrior hypothesis, we need to biologically alter men to address male violence, which ignores other power factors in society (economic, population proximity, organization/communication methods, etc.)

    We are in an accord 100% here. Biology is a factor in some trends, more investigation is needed. Until we have more definitive ways to quantify, we can only make bets on the probabilities. Men being more violent because primates are violent doesn't prove that men are more violent than women. Same way we look at marketing data for gaming, just because more men play X genre of video game does not mean that number is set in stone or men are biologically disposed to play them. My key point here is, we cannot, with confidence and certainty, say that men are inherently violent or women are inherently nurturing. Especially with biased marketing research that should not be held in the same light as scientific research.

    All cultural or historically based anecdotal evidence. Generally, women are forced to deal with crying children, thus they are more patient, monogamous, nurturers because men regulate them to that position. This is why relying on biology alone creates a biased world-view. Like observing primate wars, just because we observe women performing these tasks does not mean we have proven they are biologically superior, predisposed or given this knowledge through DNA transfer. Correlation does not equal causation, we can make hypothesis form this data, but not conclusions. Cultural transference, language, behaviors and mannerisms are socially constructed. Until we have the ability to genetically modify humans and quantify personality genes like the Sims 3, we cannot conclude "men are from Mars and women are from Venus" biologically. My key point here is the danger of conflating biology and cultural valuation of masculinity and femininity. They inform each other and that interaction should be studied.

    You offer a conclusion with no supporting data. Observing primates is a pattern. Correlation does not equal causation. If an attractive female primate is protected by her male and female cohorts, does this prove that the patriarchy is real in humans and should be kept because it is 'natural'? This appeal to nature argument doesn't move us forward and is not founded on facts.

    What could he mean?
    We are of the same mind that people should consume things they enjoy and celebrate our differences of opinion. The issue I have is, you state Anita is creating a narrative to exert creative control or censorship. I believe Anita is pointing out how the gaming industry and gamer identity is fitting people into boxes and forcing them to consume specific things. She is also suggesting that the gaming demographic will expand to more women if certain changes are made to how developers craft a game. Your meaning appears to imply that Anita is 'bad', but then talk how biology has dictated us that Boys and Girls are different and we must accept that only boys want to consume games. It doesn't seem like Anita is the one putting people in boxes. Anita is promoting celebration of different play styles and creation of games that both Boys and Girls enjoy playing. Biological behavior prescribes blue boxes for boys and pink boxes for girls, instead of investigating what they want.
    Why would this be a problem?
    Using unfounded biological 'facts' and cherry picking what fits into a personal belief system is not truth. Instead this feels like someone has crafted a narrative to justify treating men and women differently. Treating groups differently based on superficial characteristics like race, religion, sexual preference and ethnicity is a problem. There is a big difference between 'separate but equal' and celebrating differences. Separate but equal did not work in the United States. The question is do we celebrate differences by forcing people into boxes and having them consume blue or pink based on one's biological sex? Or do we listen to what individuals want and craft games to their desires?

    @kirbwarrior I agree with you. The interesting part is what, precisely, created the alienation and who, specifically, was alienated. Are all FF fans women haters? (No, as you, I and everyone here can attest to:kaopride:!) Do the some fans dislike an all female cast? Was it the dress sphere, the massage mini-game, or a combination of variables and biases that lead to a group of the fanbase declaring alienation?

    I did a quick read of FFX-2's wikipedia page and present a few gems may help inform us: 1) The game was/is a financial success(PS4 X/X-2 Remaster). 2) 85% metacritic and generally 'high/good' review scores. 3)It set FF precedents: First direct FF sequel, First all-female cast, First game will small character roster (3 total), early access to 'world map' travel (typically unlocked 'later' in FF franchise), one of the few FF games with multiple endings and first FF game with no music contribution from Nobuo Uematsu. 4)Chief Criticisms: No Nobuo Uematsu, FFX had a tragic theme at the end and FFX-2 has a lighthearted atmosphere, Non-linear style and re-use of graphical designs (FFX was 2 years old when FFX-2 released). Interestingly, there is no mention of the dress sphere and positive critics pointed to the battle system.

    What all that says to me is, without actual demographic data to show who/what/where was alienated by FFX-2, we cannot truly dig into the why. Sadly, with gamers becoming ideologically divided over feminist ideology, it is too easy to say 'women haters' are the root of the issue. Personally, I think a gamer not liking the Charlie's Angels theme FF is fine, regardless of their gender. There is a lot that FFX-2 set precedents for and it being a sequel strikes me as the top contributing variable to Fanbase push-back. There are many reasons for alienation but also a lot of reasons that could draw NEW fans, potentially female, to the FF franchise. If we judge it by 'financial success' then the alienated fans are a minority. That all being said...

    I'm with @RionFish , I look forward to how you develop a non-gender binary character! In the end, regardless of our respective beliefs, identities and genders, we are humans. Finding what part of that is universal in us all, can unite us and make for some good story-telling.
     
    #66
    Shugo, Chaos Avian, RetroBoy and 4 others like this.
  7. kirbwarrior

    kirbwarrior Veteran Veteran

    Messages:
    631
    Likes Received:
    327
    First Language:
    English
    Primarily Uses:
    N/A
    I've looked into and more now since this thread has come up. The remaster definitely was far more successful. Like Majora's Mask, when it first came out, people saw a sequel with similar art assets, had an immediate (but small) dislike, and largely looked for things to dislike. With the remake, the large number of substantially new things in the game were no longer surprising, and thus, no longer polarizing. I highlight the mini game because it was honestly an odd duck; no one knew about it or focused on it early in the game's life, and later retroactively sited it as a reason they didn't want to play the game or as something bad about it. However, the battle system is a large positive point for the game, and I could see it being considered the best in the main series. It's the most fun I've had in random encounters at the very least.

    I understand the need to have a male or female protagonist in a traditional rpg, but in WRPGs, where the character is the player's choice wholly, I think just removing the distinction would be the best move forward. Developers wouldn't need to focus on what being non-binary would mean, but rather go the opposite direction and not have gender 'mean' something, instead letting player interaction and choice mean something. Skyrim (if I recall correctly) made everyone you can date bisexual (or as Fire Emblem Fates fans put it; "Corrin-Sexual"). There is no difference in gender in that game other than what you (the player) want to look like.
     
    #67
  8. RetroBoy

    RetroBoy Veteran Veteran

    Messages:
    378
    Likes Received:
    259
    First Language:
    English
    Loved your response. I've had a busy weekend so I am going to keep the response short. You mention a few times that correlation does not link to causation, which is true. However, how much correlation do you need before something can be accepted?

    If we study sexual dimorphism in primates we see that the males are typically stronger and most violent. We see in groups like the Bonobo (speculated to be our closest living relative) that the females are protected from harm and the males do the fighting. The hunting parties are made up of males. The men are physically stronger. Its rare in mammals that the female of the species is more aggressive than the male. And we must assume, if evolution is correct (if) why is it that the males of a species are more predisposed to retaining more aggressive impulses if it offers no evolutionary advantage?

    You also can't really deny that men are not more predisposed to violence than women because in all cases (other than lesbian relationships leading in domestic violence statistics) the primary perpetrators of violent crime are men. There are something like (off the top of my head, I'm on my phone here waiting for fish n' chips) men are like four (or fourteen?) times more likely to commit violent crime.

    Also, males are far more expendable from a biological standpoint. As one male can father children to several women. So, we're evolved to want to preserve and protect women.

    So where you could say that its all correlation, its pretty commonly accepted fact. Its just we take these basic biological truths and people become uncomfortable in applying them to people -- but market data supports them. Violent crime supports them.

    I think (hypothesize) that the reason that consumer trends are the way they are is because of basic human nature. I know that Mattel and Hasbro did tests with their toys with primates and their results were not so different to when testing young humans. I can't provide evidence of that since I was not directly involved in them but I read about it back in Toyfare Magazine in an interview in the 90s and I am sure you could find out more with a google search.

    As always there will be exceptions but we're just talking about basic consumer trends here. Like, it would be foolish to think that making a game about a child rapist would be more popular if you made the protagonist a female. Obviously, the whole child-rape thing is going to turn off far more people than the fact that you were being bold with your choice of protagonist. Likewise, "Wife-Beater 86: Megabitch Brofest" probably isn't going to sell very well anywhere but 4Chan. The general market is going to find these concepts repugnant.

    I think you will find the reason for this is the same reason that Middle Eastern Nations where women are severely beaten or objectified are often clad in dehumanizing clothing -- because even a society that treats women in such a violent and unforgiving manner cannot do so with a clear conscience if they are forced to witness the consequences of their violence. And I would argue that other than in a few rare cases of sociopathy, this is because of our basic human instinct.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2017
    #68
  9. kirbwarrior

    kirbwarrior Veteran Veteran

    Messages:
    631
    Likes Received:
    327
    First Language:
    English
    Primarily Uses:
    N/A
    Random 'fact'; Men are four times more likely to be hit by lightning. But that fact means nothing without understanding why. What it's actually stating is men are four times as likely to be in situations where getting hit by lightning is likely*.

    One thing game developers are actually starting to realize recently is; if you make the push against the tide, by making games out of the norm and against data, many times a result is showing people who didn't want to play games or play this style of game or play games made by you is that it's 'allowed', whether that means that social pressures feel weaker or that they now actually consider playing your game, even without conscious bias. What's very interesting is it was found out that there were a lot more female gamers before the mass-marketing push of video games than anyone knew of, because of tons of factors; men buying games for a female sibling or girlfriend, girls playing games when guys weren't around because "it isn't pretty", etc. It's not anything close to the ~50% percent it seems to be now, but it was eye-opening.

    Commonly accepted as fact and fact are not the same thing. The first is looking at how things seem to be and thinking it's true. Many scientists renowned in their day have zero percent of their findings to actually be true, including recent ones like Einstein. I know this is a strange thing to say, but many 'facts' exist because people want them to exist (such as men are strong and women are pretty), and then use confirmation bias to show it's true.

    As for biology, who's to say we haven't substantially changed from how we were a million or even merely a thousand years ago? Societal, cultural, and authoritative measures** can substantially change a person's core, and a society living long enough can have a long term 'permanence' of this effect.

    *Men actually are more likely to get hit by lightning, but it's a much, much smaller +5% likely. Something about men's biology creates a stronger effect of energy or something similar.

    **Brainwashing is something people have been trying to master for quite a long time. I'd honestly state that people have mastered it and now it's all about hiding the subject and outsiders from noticing it happening.
     
    #69
  10. RetroBoy

    RetroBoy Veteran Veteran

    Messages:
    378
    Likes Received:
    259
    First Language:
    English
    "Men actually are more likely to get hit by lightning, but it's a much, much smaller +5% likely. Something about men's biology creates a stronger effect of energy or something similar."

    I don't know about that. I believe its more likely because they're outdoors more and thus more likely to be in a situation where it can happen. You cant just throw away everything we currently know. Like, I'm not talking about revolutionary or fringe ideas here. Its easy to question every single thing and point to exceptions, we're not talking about the exceptions, we're not talking about what ifs, we're not talking about could. All of those things are too heavily steeped in speculation. We can only discuss what is.

    If you want to develop to be a trend-setter, you should go for it!

    But personally, I'd just rather sell my game to an existing market, make enough money to turn a profit so it wasn't a complete waste of all my time and effort.
     
    #70
  11. kirbwarrior

    kirbwarrior Veteran Veteran

    Messages:
    631
    Likes Received:
    327
    First Language:
    English
    Primarily Uses:
    N/A
    (I actually alluded to that at the beginning of my post, the 5% thing was just a neat aside)

    My actual point (a TL;DR if you will) was that there's a difference between seeing 'what is' and 'why is' when it comes to data.
     
    #71
    Titris Thrawns and RetroBoy like this.
  12. kaukusaki

    kaukusaki Awesome Programmer Extraordinaire Veteran

    Messages:
    668
    Likes Received:
    490
    Location:
    Saint Louis, Missouri
    First Language:
    English
    Primarily Uses:
    RMVXA
    I don't worry about market data. I made a few games that hit all the markers that should have made it do well - they bombed big time. The ones that fared quite well were the quirky titles I made for myself or for the lolz (roughly half were female protagonists) . I had fun making them and players enjoyed them. So in my case screw market data. In the end my company started to get recognized for quirky games. That's how we stood out from everyone else because we weren't developing the same but different style stuff. (this was a decade ago lol now we're going for mobile, console and beyond the 486 lol)

    *Devils advocate mode* make whatever you like. Someone will enjoy it.
     
    #72
    Piyan Glupak likes this.
  13. ShadowHawkDragon

    ShadowHawkDragon Veteran Veteran

    Messages:
    472
    Likes Received:
    856
    First Language:
    English
    The Atelier games are an example of a 'professional' game series which nearly always have a female protag, especially the later games to the series. Gust are known for their niche, but even so if they didn't sell they wouldn't still be making them but they are; most being released in the west too.

    The thing with female characters is not making the most common mistake. Making a 'male cahacter' that simply 'looks' female but still ultimately acts male. I'm not saying they have to be super girly, my MC for one is more of a tomboy. But even with her pseudo-violent nature, she's not violent for the sake of violence nor does she try to act 'manly' but its more her showing she is not just some 'weak girl' to be pushed around. She still thinks of herself as a girl and actually gets more upset when people treat her otherwise.

    Effectively it all comes down to writing, if you are comfortable writing females like me, then go with that strength but if you are only writing a 'male with female form' it will likely fall short.
     
    #73
  14. Tai_MT

    Tai_MT Veteran Veteran

    Messages:
    5,214
    Likes Received:
    4,411
    First Language:
    English
    Primarily Uses:
    RMMV
    Okay, I haven't read the 4 pages of debate here. Mostly because I don't see the point of the debate. I'll just add my perspective from a writer's standpoint and then from a player's standpoint.

    From a writer's standpoint... What does it matter what gender the protagonist is? I've written stories about male and female protagonists. It's a different experience in writing both, but it isn't like it's "out of the norm" or even "weird". One of my current stories has both a male and female protagonist at the same time. It's a story about how they were both chosen by this "evil" deity to come together, cause certain events to happen, and then to change the world (not necessarily fix, not necessarily break, just change it). I enjoy writing the female bits of it more because I, personally, think she's got the more interesting role in my own story. But, that's just me. If your story requires a female protagonist, you just make one. As a writer, it isn't just some decision to make on which gender you're writing for. I go in with a story I want to tell, and the character pops up at the same time the idea for the story shows up. The character is a person, their gender is mostly irrelevant in whatever story I'm telling, and they just want their story told. So, I tell it.

    From a player perspective... Gender of the character doesn't usually matter much to me. In Final Fantasy 6, I loved characters like Relm and Celes (Relm was a precocious little girl raised by her grandpa with magical painting powers and Celes was a former general of the Evil Empire who is also a magic user) while I hated Terra (who was meant to be the protagonist, but was so boring and useless I ignored her most of the game). I play Metroid games (one of my favorite series) and the main character in that is a female. Given the choice between male or female, I tend to play as male, because that's what I am (and I love games like Saint's Row that let me customize the look all the way down to how fat the character is, so I can actually play as myself). But, MMO's are a different case for me, because of their tendency towards lack of character arcs and story. I tend to play as women in MMOs for two reasons. The first reason is that if I'm going to be staring at the backside of a character for 1000 hours with no story or role in the game world attached to them, then I would rather look at the backside of a woman. The second reason is that female clothing/armor options are far more robust and well designed in MMO's than male outfits. A female outfit in most MMOs can fall anywhere between "nearly nonexistent clothing" to "tons of clothing flare and design". In essence, you can role play with them a lot easier just with their clothing and armor designs. Male clothing in MMOs all tends to be like this stupid bulky solid metal with leather straps junk... maybe some spikes or something on it too... and that's it. It all essentially looks exactly the same with no personality. So, in an MMO, I tend to play as the ladies.

    I don't think having a protagonist be a woman is bad in any way. Not unless you're using it to pander to a particular audience. I, for one, really hate pandering. If your game has a story about a woman because it's her story, that's one thing. If your game has a story about a woman because you're trying to draw in teenage boys or a female demographic... That's quite another. That means, I expect your female protagonist to be written well. To be written as a person and not a cliché. Samus Aran in Metroid Fusion is written as a person. Samus Aran in Other M is written as a cliché.

    So, if you're not making a female protagonist just to pander to a specific audience... I ask you: Why does it matter what gender the protagonist is? I mean, unless it's a story unique to a particular gender, it shouldn't matter what gender they are (and by that I mean, a story that could only be told from a specific gender viewpoint... of which there are very few examples that a story could be told from that viewpoint, unless we're talking historical accuracy type things).
     
    #74
    Titris Thrawns, Tuomo L and kaukusaki like this.
  15. Ksi

    Ksi ~RTP Princess~ Moderator

    Messages:
    2,006
    Likes Received:
    1,534
    Location:
    Australia
    First Language:
    English
    When I have a choice I always play female because there's just not enough out there and hell, I am female so why not? That doesn't mean I'm going to stop playing games just because they've got a male lead, and I know a ton of people who play games that have female leads but are male. It only makes a difference to people who have issues with either gender. Like, how shallow and messed up do you have to be to say "This game has got really high scores, tons of great reviews and looks cool as all hell but I don't want to play a female lead so I'm not gonna bother even though it's otherwise the perfect game for me."

    Look at new games like Tales of Berseria, Horizon: Zero Dawn, Neir: Automata and the like and tell me that men have been turned off from playing just because the leads are female. You can't, because they haven't been. Thus, if it fits the story to have a woman, then put a woman lead it. It's not going to turn people away if the game is good in any way, shape or form. At least, it won't turn anyone away who isn't an idiot. If someone is going to not play just because they don't like the lead's gender then they'd probably be the kind to complain about every tiny little thing they didn't like, too. Don't need that kind of player and definitely don't want them.


    I would also like to point out that 'women are only now getting into games' is stupid to say. Because it's not true. Women have always been into games. We've been there from the bloody start of gaming and we'll be there at the end. The only thing is that people never asked us if we were here, and we were pressured to say 'no' even when asked because we got shamed for it. Now that society has woken up a bit more and women can actually say they like 'boys stuff' without being demonised and teased for it, you're suddenly realising we're here... when we've been here all the time. >.>

    Anecdotal sheep right now:
    In my family there are six kids. Two girls, four boys (plus two male cousins who were brought up with us), our mother, our grandmother, uncle and aunt. Of them I (female), one brother, one cousin, my mother and my grandmother played games. Of them now only I, my mother and one brother still play games.
    My grandmother introduced all of us to gaming way back in the 80s. I caught a lot of flak at primary school for even trying to take part in gaming conversations, whilst my brother could talk quite freely about it. Back then it was better not to mention anything like games, anime (even cartoons!) or certain toys if you were a girl because it was prime teasing material. So we didn't. I didn't.

    And now those same girls and boys who used to tease me play Pokemon Go and Overwatch and many other games. Because games are universal no matter your gender.

    Lastly, don't discount 'facebook' and 'casual' gaming. You play any kind of video game, you're a gamer and part of the statistics for such. I play so called 'hardcore' games and have since I started gaming, but I also play those so called casual games because they're fun too. Stop making excuses to discount people and their experiences. Besides, just because they're playing casual games doesn't mean they'll never pick up your idea of a real game.



    Oh, and @RetroBoy
    PS: MONKEYS AREN'T HUMANS. There's a bloody world of difference between us and them and using any studies that show correlation between behaviour in both is incedental at best. Please drop the Primate stuff, it's not helping your case at all.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2017
    #75
  16. RetroBoy

    RetroBoy Veteran Veteran

    Messages:
    378
    Likes Received:
    259
    First Language:
    English
    @Ksi yes there are many differences between humans and primates but there are more similarities than differences. The fact that these studies are used and do offer an insight into the human condition should not just be dismissed. If you take a human child and a chimp child and put them together, their personal preference for play things is more like the sex of the corresponding species than it is like the opposite sex of the same species. In fact, studies by Winthrop Niles Kellogg (where a human child was raised alongside a chimpanzee child) show that humans will become more like chimps than chimps will become like humans when raised alongside one another. So, we are MORE like primates than we are not and if given the opportunity to be more ape-like without the social stigma (like the case of a developing child) humans will choose to develop accordingly.

    Also, its not really "my case" this is a simple fact of reality and the statistics reflect this. You can ignore it or deny it, I don't care and it doesn't effect me at all, but as for who doesn't play a game because its got a female lead or female leads?

    Me, and I know I'm not the only one. I don't hate women or anything like that but if I see a game cover with a scantly clad anime girl I will pass it up 99% of the time. I know from experience that its almost positive to be fan-service or shovel-ware garbage. I don't enjoy "beating up" women when I play pretend and I think you'll find most guys feel the same way.

    And I know I am not in the minority on that. I just think that people are so caught up in trying to argue something I am not even arguing in an effort to white knight that they're missing my point entirely.

    I've said multiple time that there are always exceptions but they're just exceptions. Are you making games for the exceptions or to appeal to the largest consumer base?
     
    #76
  17. Robin Hoot

    Robin Hoot Veteran Veteran

    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    22
    Personally I find female characters tend to be a lot more interesting than male ones most of the time.
     
    #77
  18. Tuomo L

    Tuomo L Oldbie Veteran

    Messages:
    2,294
    Likes Received:
    1,268
    Location:
    Finland!
    First Language:
    Finnish
    Primarily Uses:
    RMMV
    RPG Maker has scantily clad anime women on its cover.

    Also I don't think you read the right study, in reality the ape fell behind.

    https://edubloxtutor.com/kellogg/
     
    #78
  19. RetroBoy

    RetroBoy Veteran Veteran

    Messages:
    378
    Likes Received:
    259
    First Language:
    English
    This was the first RPG Maker program I purchased. And if the fact that "scantly clad anime woman" on the cover are PROBABLY why the majority of content produced by the community is hentai-based these days.

    upload_2017-5-9_22-3-15.jpeg
     
    #79
  20. Tuomo L

    Tuomo L Oldbie Veteran

    Messages:
    2,294
    Likes Received:
    1,268
    Location:
    Finland!
    First Language:
    Finnish
    Primarily Uses:
    RMMV
    There were lots of hentai stuff on RPG Maker 2003, I really don't even know what you're talking about. Some of the most out there games in terms of explict content ever made on RPG Maker series were made on RPG Maker 2003.


    Seriously, are you trolling? You didn't even aknowledge the fact that you misquoted the Kellog studies.
     
    #80

Share This Page