Final Fantasy and Rpg Maker oh and excessive hand holding

[DarknessFalls]

Why?

Why?


Why?

Why do people think its cool or awesome to make FF based games? Its all great and dandy if its your first game or if theres a peice of the plot you want to "mimic" (note the quotes) but why must people make FF rip offs, inspired games and so on, the three that come to mind are FF7 .... 6 and 9. Some obvious plots are: crystals. Why?

What is so appealing about an FF game (I love them) that people must mimic them with no originality? oO

Also, on that note - why are games hand holding you? oh theres a crack in the wall, oh theres an arrow saying go here, oh theres 4 hours of tutorials before you get too play for 10 minutes then 6 more hours of classes followed by a final exam of save the world. By the way we just explained how to build an atom bomb - so make sure you took notes.

Enough already. Seriously.

Let me explore, let me make mistakes, let me figure things out. Sure some explanation is required. But let me go into the menus and poke around and let me walk down a path and face a monster only to find out i'm too low level.

So Heres my questions:

Why FF inspiration?
Why the constant hand holding? I makes games suck IMO. key words: IMO

 

[Tai_MT]

Ever played "Final Fantasy Endless Nova"?

Give that a try and you'll see what a good Final Fantasy RPG Maker game could be.

 

[The Boggan King]

None of my ideas are inspired by FF. I don't play FF enough to even be inspired by it....So I wouldn't notice it in games either unless it held up a billboard saying every thing was copied from FF. Heh *Sweat* I wonder uh what's a good middle ground between threading fingers with the player and walking them through a game and then abandoning them to their own little devices? Seems hard to get it "right" ya know....

 

[Tai_MT]

If you're really concerned about "hand holding", you have to consider the current crop of "gamers" these days.  As in...  Most of them are newer people who get into games because they've become much more accessible and less stigmatized these days.

Don't get me wrong, there's still some stigma surrounding being a "gamer", but it's not as bad as it once was.  What this means is that a lot of games have to be "dumbed down" a bit for a large playerbase that didn't really grow up playing games and really only buys a few a year.  These people are the reason tutorials like "use the right stick to look around" and "use the left stick to move" exist.  Because, you know, morons might think you look with the shoulder buttons and move with ABXY.  'Cause, you know, that makes sense.

It is my firm belief that if you need a tutorial in your game... at all... you've programmed a really terrible game.  The only exception to this rule is a game like Portal in which you don't realize you've run half the game in a tutorial until several playthroughs later....  Or you've played through with the Commentary on and they told you that's what you had been doing.  As in, the exception to the rule is when you don't realize you've just run a tutorial on the game because the tutorial is non-intrusive or restrictive gameplay.  Case in point... World 1-1 of Super Mario Bros on NES.  That whole level is a non-intrusive and non-restrictive tutorial that teaches you everything you need to know about playing the game.

If you need a tutorial to get your player to figure out how to do something... You've programmed your game wrong, pure and simple.  If your game is so counter-intuitive that it needs explanation just for basic play, it's a good indicator that you've done it wrong.

Any normal human being, first time ever touching a new game, will hit every button to see what it does first.  If they find one that's a menu, they'll scroll through the menu and click on things just to see what they are, what they do, and how they work.  If you have things that can only be executed via button combinations (like holding Right trigger and then hitting A, B, X, or Y to execute some kind of command), then you should tell the player how to do that, as well as keep the information somewhere in case they need it again sometime later (like if they've not played the game for a few years and can't remember all the button combinations).  However, you don't need a tutorial for something like that.  Just pop something up on screen that says "hold right trigger and hit (insert button here) to do (specified and useful action here)".  Once the player knows that holding the right trigger can pull up this other list of functions, they can figure out how to do it themselves.

Likewise, if you have a crafting system in your game and it's so complicated that you need to run a tutorial on it to get players to understand how it works....  Well, you've just designed a really bad crafting system.  You've designed a system in which people will absolutely disregard your tutorial and instructions and simply pull up a website online in order to do whatever it is they want to do in your crafting system.

I should also be clear that when a player -has- to resort to a guide online for your game, you're also doing it wrong.  Everything in game should be kept within reason, to the point that all the information necessary for any task is available in game if the player wishes to do it.  If there are set patterns a player needs to know to solve a boss fight... that information should be easily figured out after at most four fights and losses against the boss.  If you're getting more losses than that on average, it's time to either tone down the difficulty of the boss, or put hints and information somewhere in your game world to help the players out.  Likewise, if you have absolutely hidden content in the game that grants really nice rewards...  It should be hinted somewhere on what to do and how to do it, so that a player can come back and explore the content instead of randomly getting lucky.

Players don't need their hands held.  They simply need devs that don't believe players are the enemies and believe that players are blithering idiots that need bibs for their drool.

 

[sai]

Final Fantasy games aren't exactly my cup of tea, but I did enjoy a few aspects and a couple titles. In terms of mimicry, I'm assuming it's just paying homage, maybe they haven't played anything past the FF series, or it's just the type of game they like to make. Some people just really like Final Fantasy. I probably won't play an FF-inspired game, but if they make it, then good for them since they made something that was inspired. Not a big deal to me.

As for hand holding, I didn't really see much of it in FF, at least from what titles I've played (or remember lol). But touching upon the topic, instead of longwinded explanations or tutorials, I'd rather get vital instructions in small simple chunks as I progress. It's simple enough.

 

[nio kasgami]

I am not a big fan of ''mimic'' game i am the type to love originality and such

but it arrive sometime I copy some idea (more features) of some game because I found them cool

but this will made the game ''bad'' and non-original?

no 

a lot of ''big''  title have some idea mimic from other game and they are awesome!

Lost Odyssey who the battle system is really similar on some point to The legend of dragon ...this  still the game is awesome 

Mimic some idea from a other game is not bad but is like Easter Egg chocolate...2,3 are tasty and cool ....but 10 and more you can get sick of this...

 

[BCj]

By the way we just explained how to build an atom bomb - so make sure you took notes.

 

[captainproton]

As far as the FF games go, I think there's several factors. Nostalgia, because i'd say most of us are of an age when we can remember the original NES and SNES games, when they were among the only RPGs out there. They still remain some of the best, even if the early games were fairly simplistic.

The basic premise of "team up with other heroes, explore the dungeon, save the crystal; repeat until final boss" is not only the core of most RPGs (though details vary), it gives you a lot of freedom to expand the story beyond those basic plot points. Proof? The series itself. Nearly all the games use these basic plot points, but each one is clearly a unique and enjoyable game.

Many commercial, professionally made RPGs use the same mechanics as FF. So, you could easily say a game modeled after Breath of Fire or Lufia was a FF ripoff. This is simply because FF established many, if not most, of the common tropes and mechanics of the RPG genre. Yes, some of them existed before FF came around, but most of those games were not nearly so popular, so were not so prominent in the public mind.

As for the tutorials. For an experienced gamer, yes, a lot of the tutorials seem ridiculously unnecessary. After all, don't games come with an instruction manual? This should be where button functions and basic mechanics are explained. In an RM game, a short txt file with a couple of paragraphs should be sufficient to explain the game to all but the dumbest players.

I will say, however, that in-game tutorials for certain things are extremely handy. If you do a lot Zelda or Lufia style puzzles where you interact with games objects, a quick demo of how to use blocks, bombs or whatever can be helpful. Even in Super Metroid, you encounter an alien ostrich thing who shows you how to use the power jump.

 

[bgillisp]

Many commercial, professionally made RPGs use the same mechanics as FF. So, you could easily say a game modeled after Breath of Fire or Lufia was a FF ripoff. This is simply because FF established many, if not most, of the common tropes and mechanics of the RPG genre. Yes, some of them existed before FF came around, but most of those games were not nearly so popular, so were not so prominent in the public mind.

This. Most games are technically rip-offs of each other. Remember how many Diablo rip-offs occurred after that game was released? Or Warcraft rip-offs? You could argue about every game is a rip off of each other if you really want to nit-pick, as making a game that has *never* been done before is hard, if not impossible.

As for the FF games, I personally like the characters in those games (starting with about 6 onwards), how they interact and fit into things and aren't just red mage # x which you control to beat boss y. If nothing else, they can be a good place to start to see how other games have handled character interaction.

 

[magnaangemon01]

Ever played "Final Fantasy Endless Nova"?

Give that a try and you'll see what a good Final Fantasy RPG Maker game could be.

I've been wanting to play this but I can't find it with the RTP, and since there's no actual English version of RPGM2003, I'd rather not get a virus just to try one game.

 

[arekpowalan]

Final Fantasy is an "easy target" for being a great RPG archetype. You have to understand that FFIV, FFIV-TAY, FFV, and FFVI are all solid games in term of gameplay and plot while the original Final Fantasy holds an extreme nostalgic feeling toward western RPG fans. These games, therefore, set up "good examples" of what good RPG should be made. It's like when you look up to an upperclass man at school or university. You may want at least want to try to imitate what your role model does in order to be good yourself. The results vary, as in whether you want to make a FF fangame or something original *but* based on what are already out there. The results also vary on whether you can create a solid game or a terrible one.

I, for one, don't copy Final Fantasy as much as Dragon Quest and Lufia in term of systems and mappings. Why? Because I see those games teaching me lessons on how to make a game: mapping, balancing, etc. I don't consider myself ripping off those games, since I don't use their sprites and I always try to spice up my project with my own style. I only see them as the stepping stones.

You should not despise a game just because it is similar to one or two games you love. Fangames exists to praise the originals, while other solid games are at least try to be original.

I've been wanting to play this but I can't find it with the RTP, and since there's no actual English version of RPGM2003, I'd rather not get a virus just to try one game.

As far as I know, Final Fantasy Endless Nova is for RM2000, considering the front-view battle scene. Don Miguel's RTP should let you play it without a problem. And yes, it's a great fangame. It has FFII/Romancing SaGa leveling system while it has modern style narrative and setting. I really recommend you playing it. I believe a few RPG Maker sites like Ultima Island and RPGMaker.net still have it.

 

[magnaangemon01]

Yeah, but I thought only XP and above were legally recognized. Wouldn't I still have to download a program just to play it? If not, some links would be appreciated.

 

[arekpowalan]

RPG Tsukūru 2000 was never localized outside of Japan, but there is a consistent version of RM2000 translated by a Russian programer Don Miguel, which you can download and use for free. Yes, the program is illegal, but it's rather okay because it's home and online community uses only. Nobody can make money out of any game made with it.

For your question, yes. RM2000 and 2k3 require their main programs and correct set of RTPs to execute a game. http://crankeye.com/?page=downloads is a reliable download section for these makers and RTPs.

 

[magnaangemon01]

Downloaded the RTP and the game. Didn't work. No game. Keeps saying Installer Name Param is missing. Oh well. Guess I'll never play it.

 

[Tai_MT]

When I played Endless Nova, I actually had to find the RM2K program itself as well as the RTP.  Then, I had to find a complete version of Endless Nova as a zip file and download it into the maker.  Even then, I still had a couple issues (like the game itself was missing two maps, which meant I had to go online and find them to put them back into the game in order to play those areas) like finding some of the stuff the game used (like sprites and such) to make the game work.

Once I got it running, however, the game was fantastic.  Took me something like 30 hours to complete and was a blast despite some of the really glaring design flaws.

 

[magnaangemon01]

It would be awesome if someone would upgrade it to VX Ace so it could be more accessible and playable.

 

[AlliedG]

Most people's introduction to a JRPG is probably FF and so it's a combination of nostalgia and wanting to recreate that feeling. 

Heck Square-Enix has milked the franchise enough so no surprise people are influenced by it. 

As for hand-holding - I agree with the poster about target audience and how gaming is more accessible.

Not everyone has played a rpg maker game or indeed a JRPG so it's useful if your game has some basic tutorials for controls and new features.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

Probably because majority of us lived thru the Final Fantasy Era.


as for hand holding, probably because in the past, games where too hard since you needed to fit them in a small size, so they probably skipped all the instructions and such. And so, players often find games to be really difficult. So now that we aren't held down by those limits, we can implement features that makes player's lives easier.


Also probably because makers of RPG that focus on story wants the player to experience the story as how they planned it. It's just like an interactive show.


As for non-story based, I do think it's just to makes things easier for the players. Especially if you want players who simply started out playing games to enjoy your game. If it has quite a few instructions only, then players that are new to gaming might find it really hard to play.