Final Fantasy is feared to be a dying franchise that has long passed it's peak to Square Enix...

Discussion in 'Video Games' started by AwesomeCool, Apr 14, 2016.

  1. AwesomeCool

    AwesomeCool Bratty and spoiled little sister Veteran

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    ... according to FF15 director.


    No I am not bsing anyone (source: http://www.gamespot.com/articles/final-fantasy-was-feared-to-be-dying-ip-that-had-a/1100-6438817/).


    To put it shortly, it seems that Square Enix is fearing that gamers are not interested in the Final Fantasy series anymore.


    The director then went on to and stated that every Final Fantasy after 7 failed to reach it's popularity due to not meeting all three of these things (Final Fantasy 7 being the last to meet these three things):


    1. "A willingness to challenge the status quo"

    2. "An exceptional, out-of-the-ordinary experience"

    3. "Cutting-edge technology to use the hardware to the fullest"



    ..and I am thinking that this type of thinking is what is causing Final Fantasy to fall in popularity.  Reasons:

    1. "A willingness to challenge the status quo" - They think that in order for a Final Fantasy to be good, the game must be not only be different then what is currently on the market, but challenge what other games are doing.  Like each Final Fantasy has to go against what all other JRPGs are.  The Problem is that a game should not have to challenge what is currently out there unless it is good for the game itself as it could end up making the game worse overall in an attempt to be different.
    2. "An exceptional, out-of-the-ordinary experience" - Cannot really argue against this point at all, but then again, it is just screaming PR and doesn't really mean much (ex: for a game to be amazing it has to be an amazing experience).
    3. "Cutting-edge technology to use the hardware to the fullest" - Sure, better presentation is better, but Final Fantasy 7 is not an example of this (even Square Enix itself has better looking games on the Playstation 1).



    Which leads to the primary reason that i think Final Fantasy is struggling, they are over-analyzing and thinking to much.  


    What makes a good game?  Being fun and entertaining to people.  None of those three things are about that really and they are focusing so hard on making newer Final Fantasy games stand out that it ends up making lots of gamers not find these games fun at all due to these changes.


    I bet there is alot I am missing and am wondering what you think of this.  Do you think Final Fantasy has passed it's peak?
     
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  2. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    Currently, I think it is not on it's peak, but part of the problem is most people consider final fantasy (inset your favorite number here) to be the peak, and all others inferior. Me, I think that there are some good and some poor Final Fantasies, and what we are seeing right now are not necessarily bad games, but instead games that are average. They just appear bad in comparison to how good some of the earlier games are.


    It's kind of like the difference between a long string of A grades in school, then a string of B grades. B's are not bad, but they stand out more as they are below what was previously achieved. So maybe what we are seeing is more a regression to the mean than anything significant. After all, not every game can be outstanding.
     
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  3. PixelHeart

    PixelHeart The Pixel Heartist! Veteran

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    I think they should try to resuscitate FF...but even if they do, i also think they should run with Bravely Default....minus the BS micro transaction mechanic....in my opinion, it was almost a perfect recreation of an FF game. :D  
     
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  4. AwesomeCool

    AwesomeCool Bratty and spoiled little sister Veteran

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    @bgillisp - The problem is that it is being implied that Square Enix thinks it is impossible for FF to get an A again for FF got a couple of B.  This is what Square Enix is thinking and could possibly lead to FF just not being made anymore.


    They kept thinking that gamers do not want traditional FF games anymore and so they keep trying to push the game in different directions (and were even shocked that Braverly Default was popular as they thought people didn't like that type of game anymore).  And now they are starting to lean more and more towards think that gamers do not want the FF franchise at all.
     
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  5. Victor Sant

    Victor Sant Veteran Veteran

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    I think it's exactly the opposite, they changed too much (changes that weren't necessarely improvements) that the franchise started losing  it's identity (one of the things that keep FF fans being FF fans). On final fantasy 7, they did innovate enough without abandoning most of the concepts of old FF.


    FF8 was the first step on killing the game. Too much (unnecessary) complexity and innovation that made a lot of fans to quit the series while not adding a comparable number of new fans to the series.


    Then comes FF9, a throwback to the origins that would be very successful, but there was a issue: it was released for PSOne after PS2 was released. All the attentions was on PS2, so FF9 failed, even if it was very good at being 'Final Fantasy'.


    Then comes 10, a good game, but with the same issues as 8. FF11 shouldn't be NEVER be a numbered part of the main series and should have be named "Final Fantasy Online" only.


    FF12 while I like the game, feels more like a spin-off. And from FF13 forward, the games was no longer recognizable as 'Final Fantasy'.


    For me Final Fantasy itself is already dead. They just using the brand on new games to make them more successful (FFXV is here to prove that, making a what was-supposed-to-be a spin-off into the main series).


    And the blame is on the excessive and forced innovation that made the games feels no longer 'Final Fantasy';


    Just look for example the PSOne final fantasy, and FF 13, 15 or even the 7 remake. Do they look like games from the same frachise?


    Not for me. Not that they are bad games, but for me, they are not 'Final Fantasy'.


    Final Fantasy had a winning formula that didn't need to be changed to keep the games successful for a long time. But nowdays, each game is a new monster that except by the brand 'Final Fantasy', has little to no links between them.


    I don't understand that urge to change SE have with each Final Fantasy. For example, if you look at Shin Megami Tensei franchise, it don't deviates from the original formula and adds refreshing content keeping the new games inside the original concept. Final Fantasy had the power to do this better than SMT, but SE decided to not use this power.
     
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  6. Seacliff

    Seacliff RPG Maker Mastermind Veteran

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    Square Enix will follow the crowd even if they don't even know why it's popular or even if it goes against them in general. They tried to act like they were too cool for JRPGs, but were shocked at Bravely Default's successes. They've heard that mobile games were popular, so they have decided to ported half their library to that, along with making a few games exclusively to mobile. They've heard that episodic games were getting attention, so they have decided to take FF7 remake and split it into pieces. Now they've heard that Final Fantasy in general isn't what the coolest kid on the block wants, so they start to think that themselves.


    Okay, so honestly, the only modern Square Enix game I've played is Bravely Default. Outside of that I can't think of anything after Kingdom Hearts II. I can't answer if Final Fantasy passed it's peak or not since I've only played so many of them, but I will say this: I think Square Enix is just to afraid to sit down and actually think about what fans want. They're too busy chasing after a shiny object, then ditching that for another shiny object.


    I can say with almost full confidence, regardless if it's a good game or not, that FF7 Remake will be poorly optimised in an episodic fashion. Why? Because Capcom took Resident Evil Revelations and split it into several parts without considering the style of pacing that goes behind an episodic game, It just seems too likely that Square will do the same. Square hears that episodic games were popular, but considering how they've handled DLC in the past, I doubt they sat down and discussed WHY it's popular. This is a nutshell is my problem with Square, personally.
     
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  7. muramasa

    muramasa Abomination of life, or life itself. Veteran

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    I believe that what Square must do is...


    Screw Final Fantasy! Revive the Mana series and the SaGa series! :^DDDDD.


    I don't care about Chrono nyeheheh!


    ...I just want more Mana, and more SaGa. But take some steps back, like when they did FF9. In Mana's case, return to Legend of Mana or even to Seiken Densetsu 3. In the case of the SaGa series, just forget Unlimited SaGa ever existed...


    I pretty much agree with you people. Innovation doesn't mean make things from scratch, way less in a franchise. FF7 had its roots well defined in the previous ones, it's evolution. They just threw everything they had accomplished, and now they are just wobbling.


    But hey, Final Fantasy fans buy whatever they stick the Final Fantasy name to. Even if it's toilet sandpaper.
     
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  8. Azurecyan

    Azurecyan Veteran Veteran

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    Squeenix believes that innovation is the only key to success, but really it's not just "challenging the status quo" or "exceptional experience."I feel like after Final Fantasy 7, people started comparing every FF after that to FF7, which probably made them doubt their fans a bit and tried to veer away from the success of FF7. They want to cater to the newer generation with newer mechanics and complexity, but really keeping it simple like Bravely Default was all they needed to do. If Squeenix has anything to learn from it is just do what they have been doing since FF7 and stop trying to do things that would expand or change the gaming society. They want to change gaming history with something innovative, and that's all they're thinking about right now imo. If they stop with that mindset, then they'll start making great games again. It's not only about gameplay, or the best graphics(which I know they're known for). It's about the immersion of story that made their games great, accompanied by gameplay that was sweet and simple.


    In a way they've tipped their scale, causing things to go unbalanced in what they are known for. 
     
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  9. stupid enough to like FF13

    stupid enough to like FF13 Veteran Veteran

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    The FFXIV reboot is doing well, and despite the vocal vomit coming from a handful of people, FFXIII is one of the best-selling and most popular games in the series.


    It's not that their current games are "B" games. It's that they had one A++ and an A+ looks low in comparison to that.
     
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  10. Uzuki

    Uzuki Kawaii on the streets, Senpai in the sheets Veteran

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    Some would say, no. I would say: Yes. Some would say it can't be saved. I say we still have an chance. And believe me I'm not knocking the new games because they don't cater to the old or are just "Different". The over reliance on old characters and the adjustments to adapt the name to the modern era have backfired more then they have actually worked and thus driven off the older fans and failed to hook most of the younger generation. This can be chocked up to several things:

    • -Bigger Games, Bigger Budgets-

              Technology is a double edge sword and as it grows and becomes more powerful, the edges become sharper and the blade becomes longer. We all here would say, "Well if the next FF had PS2 quality graphics, but still took full advantage of today's more powerful engines, I would be okay with that.", but we all know we would be upset if they did. Games cost money and Square Enix isn't a small indie studio working out of a garage, they're a multihundred million dollar companies with several offices and studios around the world with thousands of employees. That isn't cheap. And game design has only become more expensive with the expansion of technology. Earlier games began with shoe string budgets and 30 guys in a corner office with only the promise of an paycheck and the joy of knowing people will enjoy your hard work. Now a single game has hundreds of devs working on one project and can cost tens of million of dollars to make, with each year getting closer to the hundreds. With the             difficulty of keeping a company as large as this they need to find the quickest way to put money in their pocket, which leads me to my second point.

    • -Last Gen CEOs-

              Japanese CEOs and shareholders are really old. And by old I mean ancient. These 60-80 year old business men have been around since the 70's and 80's and still run companies as such. They have a strong grip on how the company is run and they make sure to wring out every bead of tear, sweat, and blood to make money and unfortunately the artistic visionary's idea rarely sells well and experimenting is too much of a gamble. So more emphasize is placed on products that either play it safe enough and are marketable or can produce large sums of money in a short amount of time. Shareholders don't actually know what the consumer wants. They relay on market analysis and numbers to sell rather then allowing the developers, who are the closest to the mindset of the consumer, to figure out and make a product that will sell better long term wise rather then short time. 

    • -The Evolution Of Video Games And Human Opinion-

              We've come a long way lines and pixel blocks. Compared to the older and more mature book and movie industry, video games are just starting to reach adolescent and we gamers are living in the process of this industry's growing pains. Now I'm sure it's safe to assume most of the older folks here have grown up with the series and we  have seen it evolved over time. We were there when turn base combat was new and fresh and seen it grow over the years. And as the series grew, we grew with it. Now I'm sure we all have our personal favorites. Some will say FFIV. Others FFVII. I'm sure there was plenty of complaints when someone played IV then VII and hated everything about it and proclaim the series to be dead. The same core idea, heroes on a quest to save the world, is still present, but the aesthetics, and to a certain  extent mechanics, were different. With the newer games they are essentially the same, but because of our evolving tastes and opinions, they feel strange and completely   different. People are hardwired to like what they like and even if fundamentally the game is the same, it won't please those who aren't willing to adapt.
     
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  11. stupid enough to like FF13

    stupid enough to like FF13 Veteran Veteran

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    Compare FFI to FFVII. Compare FFIII to FFVII, or even FFVI to FFVII.


    For all the crying about "oh, they're trying to be too innovative!", that's never been the problem. It's just when the game's innovations aren't exactly what some people want that they start complaining about it. (Emphasis on "some people".)
     
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  12. Victor Sant

    Victor Sant Veteran Veteran

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    I do compare them and while there are differences, there are similarities, references, homages.


    Even FFVII, FFVIII even FFX has similarities with the older entries of the franchise, be it on gameplay, narrative or visual. Things that FFXIII didn't have.


    Games from the same franchise have similarities in several elements that liks those games together.


    FFXIII didn't innovate, FFXIII was 'Born Anew'.


    The game is very good, i like it a lot, but it had little of what I felt playing every other FF game. And it seems that FFXV will be the same.


    To quote what FFXV director said:

    It's not totally true, what people want is to play 'Final Fantasy', not to play a totally new game with little to no resemblance to their predecessor with just the brand 'Final Fantasy' on it.


    When I look for 'Final Fantasy' games I want games that has the elements from the previous games, with some improved elements and some new elements, not something totally new. If I want a new experience, I look for a new game, when I look for final fantasy, i want final fantasy. Bravely Default, that is more a spin-off is more 'final fantasy' than Final Fantasy XIII.


    One of the main things I dislike is the focus on fast paced action, where you control a single character and the rest of the party is controlled by AI. 


    Again to quote the FFXV director:

    The fans are disappointed with the current state of Final Fantasy, because each new entry of the series put it away from what made them like 'Final Fantasy' on the first place.


    A proof to this is how FFXIV was a failure at first, because they wanted to do too much new things that had little to do with Final Fantasy, and when it was redone, adding back many of the elements that made final fantasy successful, and it was also successful.


    Just look at the success of Bravely Default, that even with a lot of flaws, most people that loved Final Fantasy simple love it.
     
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  13. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    I think you grade too high, but that is pretty much my point too. I didn't find FFXIII a bad game (and I think there are better games that came out at the same time too, but that's another debate). Do I think it could have been done better? Yes, of course, but who doesn't think that about every game honestly?


    And yes, FFXIV is doing really well. Though I do agree with the others that maybe they need to drop the numbering and just call it FF online. But then again, Final Fantasy always did have weird numbering systems. Anyone remember how for a long time FF2 in the US was what was called FF4 overseas?
     
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  14. stupid enough to like FF13

    stupid enough to like FF13 Veteran Veteran

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    The entire concept of the l'Cie of FFXIII is a twist upon the Warriors of Light. That's just one example.


    But what most people consider to be the vital "elements" of Final Fantasy are just "the things that I like most in the specific game I like most". When they became core elements of the series or if they even are core elements of the entire series is entirely unimportant!
     
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  15. Victor Sant

    Victor Sant Veteran Veteran

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    Being 'core' or not being 'core' doesn't matter. What matters is that people have some expectation when looking for a game from a franchise (expectation set by it's predecessor), so if the next games from the franchise lacks those elements, people will not be happy with it. And this is what happening with FF.


    On an analogy:


    Game 1 had A, B, C, D, E


    Game 2 had B, C, D, E, F


    Game 3 had A, C, D, E, G


    Game 4 had A, B, F, G, H


    Game 5 had B, D, F, H, I


    Game 6 had H, I, J, K, L


    As someone that played game 1 to 5, reaching game 6 and not finding none of A, B, C, D, E, F, G is not going to make me happy with this entry, and while it might be a good game at it's own, people will complain because it don't feel like what they expected.(wich was a combination of some of the old elements, with some new elements added)


    The point is, every game from the 'numbered' entry of the franchise had several elements that were shared by many of the other entries, On the later entries those similarities are far lower and each new entry has too much new things going on that it's hard to feel like you're playing a new entry of the same franchise.


    Anyway, you seems to act like everything is fine, and it is just a minority of people whining, but even the director of FFXV recognize that the FF brand fandom dropped a lot. Nah, you probably right and people is just crying without reason, and even the director of the new game is wrong.
     
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  16. stupid enough to like FF13

    stupid enough to like FF13 Veteran Veteran

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    The more accurate analogy is that Game 6 had A, D, G, I, and J, but the majority of the people who complain about Game 6 don't actually know Game 6 has A, D, and G.
     
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  17. Archeia

    Archeia Level 99 Demi-fiend Staff Member Developer

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    If they make FF have cool battles like SotC/DD I'll probably return to it.
     
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  18. Niten Ichi Ryu

    Niten Ichi Ryu Grey Lords Emissary Veteran

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    Maybe they should start again to some of their older IPs.


    I would love to see a new Front Mission (but not as this crappy FPS they did) and most of all, an attempt to revive the SaGa concept.


    Maybe drop a little their focus on being the next big thing in JRPG and make good TRPGs.
     
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  19. Chester

    Chester Meow Kitten Veteran

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    Its simple meow, just please give us back our black and white mages in traditional costume with moogles and chocobos. We also like a love story and not one where all the characters seem to hate each other or just care about themselves.


    Strategic Marketing to gaining lots of Gil


    1) Remake Final Fantasy 9


    2) Please PLEASE give us a REAL HD REMAKE of Final Fantasy 10...and please say TIDUS PLEASE MEOW! SAY HIS NAME!!!!!!!!!!! HE'S ALIVE MEOW! TIDUS IS HUMAN!!!! MEOW
     
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  20. Rukiri

    Rukiri I like to make Action-RPGs Veteran

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    FFX was good, never played the online PS2 game.


    12 was alright.


    What were they thinking when they made 13?...




    Final Fantasy 9 was my favorite of the series.
     
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