Final Fantasy is feared to be a dying franchise that has long passed it's peak to Square Enix...

[stupid enough to like FF13]

A classic example of this is the ff13-2 final fight. Round 4 didn't need to exist, and in my opinion it added nothing to the fight except to drag it out another 10 - 20 minutes.

It's a good thing we have that shining pinnacle of perfection in JRPG design, FFVII, to compare this to.


...oh, three to five final boss phases...

 

[bgillisp]

It's a good thing we have that shining pinnacle of perfection in JRPG design, FFVII, to compare this to.


...oh, three to five final boss phases...

I don't remember those (but I also last played the game in 2003). Which fights?

 

[muramasa]

And when FFXV comes out, it will be one of my rare first-day purchases, I am certain that I will enjoy the game, and I will hopefully be wise enough to never take part in discussions of it online.

I agree with this, not only for Final Fantasy but everything overall. You can start liking a game, then you hear some discussions, and it's prone to impact your experience forever. Don't listen to anyone until you have experienced it whole by yourself. You paid for it anyway. We know people need some review, to see if it's worth the investment, but this is something that needs a little of filtering.


Nothing will please everyone ever.

 

[SOC]

1. 
   "A willingness to challenge the status quo"
   
2. 
   "An exceptional, out-of-the-ordinary experience"
   
3. 
   "Cutting-edge technology to use the hardware to the fullest"
   

I think this is silly. Make a good game because it's a good game. Who cares about what the current "status quo" is? Final Fantasy has been sucking since 12 because they keep trying too hard to make something different and new and fresh. Just go back to making classic amazing RPGs like FF9 did where it was minimal "new stuff" and instead "polishing what works" and then their target audience, us who grew up with FF, would go back to buying and loving FF more than enough to keep it sustainable forever. Sure FF7 and FF6 are arguably the best FFs and they pushed the boundaries, but right now FF10 was the last proper FF that anyone really liked (Honestly there's a lot of people that didn't like FF10, even) so they need to retreat back to what works and focus on that until they are in a position where they can push boundaries again. FF Dimensions is a perfect example of awesome, amazing, what works. It did really well (despite having low reviews since the updates because people don't understand it's not a free game) and there needs to be way more games like that.


I've been waiting for another proper FF experience since FF10. I loved FF11, but it wasn't an FF. FF12 is the 2nd worst in the series IMO (only 2 is worse), and I barely remember it at all despite playing it through twice. FF13 is a movie, FF14 is another not FF but worse than 11 because I don't enjoy it's multiple hotkey/cooldown management like WoW, and FF15 just looks so lame to me. I want more FF9s, FF4s, FF Dimensions.


I feel like Zelda is suffering the same problem. I want more OoTs, Link to the Pasts, Twilight Princesses. I want less Wind Wakers, Skyward Swords and Zelda Wii Us.


At least Dark Souls is doing it right.

 

[stupid enough to like FF13]

FF10 was the last proper FF that anyone really liked

You can't really believe that.

 

[Alexander Amnell]

Perhaps the stupidest part of it is because they're trying to appease a vocal minority that complains about the recent games, but are so dead-set in viewing FFVII as the greatest game ever that there simply isn't any possibility that they will ever not complain about new games for not being FFVII.

   only two questions do I have for this statement.


1. If those who dislike FF13+ are truly such a minority among a plethora of people then why is it that in every discussion that crops up here that even remotely touches that particular miniseries it descends eventually into @lilyWhite vs. everyone else? I guess this site is just a meeting ground of "people telling blatant lies" and "who stupidly feel the need to compare everything to 7". Calling everyone else names is not a productive means of getting your point across, even if it does help you feel better at the moment.


2. If the problem is a vocal minority that sees everything as trash compared to 7 no matter what, whose opinion can be safely ignored because they are merely "being stupid" then why  is it that 9, 10 and 12 had significantly less vitriol and all this talk about final fantasy being a dying franchise didn't really crop up until 13 and beyond? Maybe people other than yourself actually think things through and their opinions just happen to be different than yours, maybe their reasons for disliking 13 are actually on par with and equal to your reasons for loving it, and you need to get over yourself and stop generalizing them all as idiot fanboys pining for a game that they likely haven't played in over ten years now.


   Your arguments appear to me the statements of a petulant child who for whatever reason cannot cope with the fact that other people have opinions that differ from their own. It's not worth the headache to take discussions over a video game so seriously as you seem to. People can disagree with you without being stupid, the fact that I and others have issues with a game you love is not worth making offensive generalizations over so that those people will become hostile towards you just so you can dismiss them out of hand for that hostility (maybe that's not your intent, but you keep feeding that very design in every single discussion I've ever seen you take part in). If you truly cannot deal with people disagreeing with you without generalizing them so then please take your own advice and " be wise enough to never take part in discussions of it online." because the way you argue with people does nothing to further the discussion, it only serves to make "stupid people" angry at you, which makes you post an angry, depressive status update talking about "stupid people and blatant liars" again and then disappearing from the forums for a week or so.


   As for me, Final Fantasy was dead at 12. The game had a lot of potential but it was all over the place. I actually liked the combat system but there was just to much that was shoehorned in and didn't really have a place that was enough to give me pause from buying 13 upon release. I did buy it the year after release however, as my dissatisfaction with the direction that the games seemed to be going weren't strong enough for me to pass up the chance to buy the game for 7 dollars anyway. Which, I think should be addressed when we talk about "success by number of copies", one of my biggest holdouts after 13 was released was just how fast it's price dropped in stores. I had originally planned to purchase it when it got down to 30 bucks, but it dropped to 30 at used game stores faster than most games managed to shave ten off of the price to go to 50, which gave me enough pause to wait even longer until I finally picked it up for ten dollars tax and all. By comparison Final Fantasy 7 stayed at 30 bucks (the brand new price of the time) nearly until they stopped stocking ps1 games in stores at all, and never dropped lower than 20 that I can recall. There is more to being "the most successful __ ever" than mere number of copies sold, and if Square Enix is itself beginning to regard it's signature franchise as somehow "flawed or past it's peak" the argument that it's latest entries were somehow the most successful seems almost laughable. Back in the days of 7 Square knew they had a quality product and wouldn't relent in that, wheres today square-enix games are among the fastest to experience sudden and steep price drops, likely why Tomb Raider could sell so many copies and still be declared a financial failure by Square Enx itself, and why they question FF's place in the world even while statistically they sell more copies of it than any previous game.


   I consider myself done with final fantasy, but that doesn't mean I'll never buy another one when it falls so far that I can pick it up as pocket change. Who among us can say with any certainty they won't be doing the exact same; and does the fact that we are willing to purchase these deeply discounted games really mean that we approve of them? I don't think the 'vocal minority' is the biggest thing on square's mind right now, more than likely they're more concerned with the fact that their games have no market staying power, and that the numbers stop working for them once they start looking at them from the standpoint of actual revenue rather than from how many disks they sold for ten dollars apiece 2-4 years after release. I'm satisfied if they end so, however, everything passes with time. There's always a fresh new face around the corner (CD Projekt Red, cough, From) with to little money and everything to prove that'll step up and build their own franchises out of games that do have staying power and that millions of people will actually pay full price for to fill the void, until they get to big and start pandering and flounder themselves. It's just the cycle that these things go, Square Enix is not the first game company to hold my loyalty and then squander it and they'll not likely be the last. That's the best part of a free market society, there is always an alternative and the only thing that stops you from moving on once a company lets you down one to many times is your own stubborn nostalgia.

 

[stupid enough to like FF13]

1. If those who dislike FF13+ are truly such a minority among a plethora of people then why is it that in every discussion that crops up here that even remotely touches that particular miniseries it descends eventually into @lilyWhite vs. everyone else?

Probably because everyone else is smart enough to realize what a moron they'll feel like if they bother.

 

[Niten Ichi Ryu]

So taking part in a discussion makes someone a moron and people who dislike FF13 will not say it because they are too smart?


The meaning of @Alexander Amnell question was not: why is there not more people joining the discussion to support FF13?, but more why every discussion on this forum that remotely comes around FF13 always end up the same way?


Some people are simply expressing their dislike about one particular game, usually backing it up with explanation on why.


Some people are just expressing their dislike about people disliking a particular game, with snarky one liners.


Just a question @lilyWhite, if you of course agree to answer it (and my aim is not to be judgemental)


Was maybe FF13 your first FF? I would understand that if it is, you developed an emotional link to it (as many did with their first FF, because let's recognize it, in a sea of games of varying quality, the FF series still delivers a great experience) and do not take it well if someone attacks it.


In any case, I understand that you like FF13 and defend it, I actually respect you for it, but please refrain from considering people who do not share your view as stupid, or having a secret agenda of dissing any FF that isn't their favorite FF. 

 

[Marsigne]

My knowledge is little, but here are my thoughts: I think they're over-analyzing a bit, reiterating AwesomeCool. Yes, maybe the fandom has dropped, and as human beings their feelings has been touched, but does that mean their games aren't great or aren't being successful? Aren't they a business? And yet, what they make with their games will be what most people/businesses would dare dream in their life.

 

[Dalph]

Quite frankly, I could care less about the franchise at this point, it's getting worse and worse.


I was a fan of the series but I stopped caring since the abomination of X-2, which has decent gameplay but is a poor excuse of a FF overall. 


From I to X (including Tactics) is when the franchise shined the most, then everything slowly went to hell.


XI is an MMO *facepalms*


XII is very good but wasn't memorable at all for me, felt like playing an offline MMO, I didn't really care about the characters.


XIII is too linear, I won't deny that it has some cool things though (like Caius Ballad).


XIV is an MMO...again *facepalms*


I have mixed feelings about XV and I heard the demo is disappointing.


I have mixed feelings about VII Remake too, I fear they might ruin it.


My favourite will always be Tactics though and I think it's pretty hard (if not impossible) for Square-Enix to make something better than that.


I just hope they will release both XV and the remake of VII for PC, I really don't want to buy a console just to be disappointed at the end.

 

[Uzuki]

@lilyWhite Well if the problem is making people realize how great it is, then why not lists the things you think makes it a good game? That's what I do when people trash a game I think is great. Like my favorite FF game, and one of my favorites of all time, is FFXII. And you see how many people aren't that hot about that one. Just from this thread alone it ranges from meh to horrible. Instead of stating numbers and opinions bring some of those complaints up and counter them. Here are a few I often hear about XII:

1. Story & Characters: People usually bring up how bland and boring the characters and setting is, but I find it to be the complete opposite for me. Ashe has to decide if she really wants to take back her kingdom and she feels that if she does would that be best for her people. Basch wants to repent for his failure as an knight and wants to confront his brother. Baltheir was in the group, because he was being paid to, but then came around to being friends with Ashe and wanting to fight for her cause. Fran was just tagging along with Baltheir, but she has a nice character arc where we learn she feels regret for leaving her village and wonders if she made the right chose. (And I'm probably stretching it here, but we discussed this part already.) Vaan saw a chance to explore the world and decided to take his first steps to wanting to be a sky pirate. Penelo...was pretty much just there because Vaan needs a babysitter or something. From what we are shown and play through, the world is just brimming with life and every location has it's own story. Literally. Every area feels like a new character. From the Slums of Rabanastre to the Ancient Sun Tower. The story is pretty much an High Fantasy political power struggle that leans a bit more on the fantasy side. Think Game of Thrones with a little more focus on magic and old gods. Granted the story does get more complex and (due to the things we talked about in another thread) the pacing for it is completely off. It's not for everybody, but I love it to bits.
   
2. Battle System: Okay, this one is 50/50. Usually it's the "game can play itself" argument, because of the Gambit System. When I ask them if they turned it off, I'm usually met with "What's the point. I can make the perfect setup". That strategy does work for low level mobs, but when bosses come up it's time to turn those gambits off and start thinking. Because XII uses an early version of the FFXI engine, more effort was put into the bosses then your regular enemies. At the right levels you can just power your way through mobs, but bosses require you to pay attention, because the tide of power can shift at any point. Keeping Gambits on either leads to a quick death for the player or prolongs it to unbearable hour long power struggles. The Paradim System for the first FFXIII was based off the gambit system and the redefined level board from the international version.
   
3. Vaan: Yeah I can actually understand that. We can blame this on Higher ups at the time and the settling of Enix merging with Square.
   

From at least the first two I point out my opinions on why FFXII is at least a decent game without being passive aggressive. If these points doesn't change anyone's mind then it's perfectly fine. Some people can't get into the same things that me and you like and that's what makes our things special. WE can see the beauty of these things while others don't. 

 

[Niten Ichi Ryu]

Good defense of FFXII @Uzuki. you could have simply gone as:


What...


you don't like FFXII...


 Surely you didn't understood anything about it...


so I'm just going to question your intelligence...  and will not really confront any of your statement...


how do you dare not idolizing the game I idolize...?


(Just Joking)

 

[gilgamar]

To be fair, it's hard to compare the new games with the old. The generation gap is too huge at this point. When we argue the new games can't compare with FF7 we are arguing from how we felt about FF7 back in the 90's and not how we feel about it now. I don't get the same impact from it now as I did then but I'll still hold new games to the same standard. From a right now standpoint, FF7 is too old to compare to modern games. A remake might do it some justice who knows.


I felt Squaresoft went downhill after FFXI. MMO was a bad idea. I felt like they sold out and the company lost my respect after that. I don't hate MMO's I just didn't see care to see Final Fantasy go in that direction. Felt like they only cared about money after that and not making good games.

 

[Niten Ichi Ryu]

To be fair, it's hard to compare the new games with the old. The generation gap is too huge at this point. When we argue the new games can't compare with FF7 we are arguing from how we felt about FF7 back in the 90's and not how we feel about it now. I don't get the same impact from it now as I did then but I'll still hold new games to the same standard. From a right now standpoint, FF7 is too old to compare to modern games. A remake might do it some justice who knows.

See I think this is were the assumptions on this thread are sometimes wrong. We do not really do such comparisons in the end. We are all game lovers, amateur game students and amateur game developers, and I would assume extensive RPG players. we played plenty of them (can't name them all, but most probably 50+ for myself as an example, playing RPGs since 1997).


We are mature enough in our tastes and understandings to criticize a game for its intrinsic defaults in our view, and not because it does not compare to FF7 or (insert your favorite RPG Here). We know game mechanics we like, storyline types we like etc... Some happen to be types that we experienced in old FF or other RPG, and indeed it helped shape our standards, but we actually judge them by our standards, our whole gaming experience, not by it being or not a "feature copycat" of a specific game.

 

[AwesomeCool]

@gilgamar - I agree, It is incredibly hard to compare an old classic with newer games of the series and the fact that many peoples first experience of RPG games was through Final Fantasy makes it even worse (the first experience of something is always better just because it was the first experience).


With that said, I dislike the idea of writing off or downplaying arguments by using this logic (I hate when nostalgia is used as a counterpoint 99% of the time).  Obviously Final Fantasy is going downhill currently (even Square Enix thinks so) and Braverly Default was incredibly popular (which was intended to be like old school Final Fantasy games), so there is probably some merit in making Final Fantasy games more traditional.


If that will make Final Fantasy popular again, I don't know.  But it is worth a shot for one, don't you think?


edit: I should add that many gamers like systems they are use to because they are use to them (ex: why magic's resource is mocked if it is called anything but mana).  So people might like a traditional FF more because of nostalgia (which could increase fans).

 

[gilgamar]

@gilgamar - I agree, It is incredibly hard to compare an old classic with newer games of the series and the fact that many peoples first experience of RPG games was through Final Fantasy makes it even worse (the first experience of something is always better just because it was the first experience).


With that said, I dislike the idea of writing off or downplaying arguments by using this logic (I hate when nostalgia is used as a counterpoint 99% of the time).  Obviously Final Fantasy is going downhill currently (even Square Enix thinks so) and Braverly Default was incredibly popular (which was intended to be like old school Final Fantasy games), so there is probably some merit in making Final Fantasy games more traditional.


If that will make Final Fantasy popular again, I don't know.  But it is worth a shot for one, don't you think?


edit: I should add that many gamers like systems they are use to because they are use to them (ex: why magic's resource is mocked if it is called anything but mana).  So people might like a traditional FF more because of nostalgia (which could increase fans).

It is definitely worth a shot. A purely traditional and new Final Fantasy could be mighty enticing. But how 'traditional' should they make it? FF7 seemed like a pretty popular benchmark that they have been using for sometime. I wouldn't complain if they went further back and did something like FF6.

 

[gilgamar]

See I think this is were the assumptions on this thread are sometimes wrong. We do not really do such comparisons in the end. We are all game lovers, amateur game students and amateur game developers, and I would assume extensive RPG players. we played plenty of them (can't name them all, but most probably 50+ for myself as an example, playing RPGs since 1997).


We are mature enough in our tastes and understandings to criticize a game for its intrinsic defaults in our view, and not because it does not compare to FF7 or (insert your favorite RPG Here). We know game mechanics we like, storyline types we like etc... Some happen to be types that we experienced in old FF or other RPG, and indeed it helped shape our standards, but we actually judge them by our standards, our whole gaming experience, not by it being or not a "feature copycat" of a specific game.

Of course you are right and that's why I still hold Final Fantasy to the same standards I had of it in 1997. But for someone from the next generation who never got to experience it when it first came out it might be hard to understand our bias.

 

[stupid enough to like FF13]

Obviously Final Fantasy is going downhill currently (even Square Enix thinks so) and Braverly Default was incredibly popular (which was intended to be like old school Final Fantasy games), so there is probably some merit in making Final Fantasy games more traditional.

Bravely Default didn't sell anywhere near what FFXIII sold. So I question the logic of "Clearly the series needs to be more like a game that sells much fewer games!"

But how 'traditional' should they make it? FF7 seemed like a pretty popular benchmark that they have been using for sometime.

There's a disconnect between "the series needs to be more 'traditional'!" and "the series should be more like the game that significantly broke away from traditions of the series!"

 

[gilgamar]

Bravely Default didn't sell anywhere near what FFXIII sold. So I question the logic of "Clearly the series needs to be more like a game that sells much fewer games!"


There's a disconnect between "the series needs to be more 'traditional'!" and "the series should be more like the game that significantly broke away from traditions of the series!"

That's what I mean, how traditional should they make it. At which point in the tradition of Final Fantasy should they attempt to recreate. The game has evolved (or devolved depending what you like/dislike about it). FF7 was a big departure from the classic style of FF6 which is more akin to RPG Maker style. I think most of us here are fans of the old style or we wouldn't be here...

 

[stupid enough to like FF13]

That's what I mean, how traditional should they make it. At which point in the tradition of Final Fantasy should they attempt to recreate.

It really doesn't matter what "point" they "should" recreate, or if they should do something like that in the first place. No matter what they do, there will never be a vocal fraction of the fandom trying to shout over everyone else because the newest game isn't exactly what they wanted and is therefore terrible.