Final Fantasy is feared to be a dying franchise that has long passed it's peak to Square Enix...

Discussion in 'Video Games' started by AwesomeCool, Apr 14, 2016.

  1. LightningLord2

    LightningLord2 Psionic Bird Thrower Veteran

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    Square Enix might be pushing FF more and more because it gains more revenue than the other IPs do. That would be my explanation for that.


    Bravely Default is mostly critically acclaimed because its flavor and gameplay is much more in line with the classic Final Fantasy games (NES era mainly) than the Final Fantasy games we get now.


    I also hate the need for jaded, realistic FPSes, but I don't actually see gritty military shooters to be gaining popularity in the near future. Lots of gamers don't like how tired and done the genre is (not that they'll stop buying each and every game they complain about), quirky games like Stardew Valley and Undertale explode in popularity fast, Nintendo is still going strong and most of those toxic masculinity games don't last because they have to compete with Call of Duty.
     
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  2. Ejronin

    Ejronin Grand Eater of Bacon Veteran

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    The entire FF series is dying. I know for some that's hard to swallow. As someone who was already a gamer before FFI, it's way overdue. 


    The series brought many great elements, but like Apple, didn't innovate anything as much as it renovated everything. Don't get me wrong, I love Final Fantasy more than any other RPG Franchise, but from Final Fnatasy VI forward the franchise has been unstable. They recycle and blend different ideas from prior titles, apply too great a focus on graphics to compete with titles in other genres, and have resorted to some rather shoddy storytelling. More, the series tried to keep up with casual gamers. 


    Final Fantasy and most any other RPG had required more than 130 hours to complete, with rich and extensive dialog. When voice acting in games became the norm, FF began putting speaking parts in games, but each game took less effort and offered less exploration; the substance went missing. Final Fantasy X too me....maybe 45 hours the first time. Final Fantasy XIII was 15, XIII-2 was 10, and XIII-3 maybe 8. What happened? Well, the industry isn't very keen on physical disk, prefer to bilk through DLC, and so the substance decreases with DLC giving a couple more hours of play for higher pay. From the business end, I get it...but I'm not business end.


    If FF dies off, it shouldn't be a sad moment. It wont have gone down and remembered as some generic unremarkable staple as say.... Call of Duty. It'll be buried by millions of fans who mourn the loss and speak fondly
     
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  3. stupid enough to like FF13

    stupid enough to like FF13 Veteran Veteran

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    Because two people have already "liked" your post, one thing really needs to be pointed out:


    FFXIII does not have ANY DLC whatsoever.
     
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  4. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @lilywhite: And where did he say that FFXIII had DLC? He didn't. He just said that the industry trend towards DLC for a few hours of higher pay. That is a general statement, not a comment that says FFXIII has DLC.


    Also, FFXIII-2 has DLC, I remember being given the option to buy some as I played the game. Not sure about FFXIII-3 as when I played through that my internet died on my xbox and I don't want to buy a new one just to have a system that can connect to the internet again. Of course, this does mean I now wait for the game of the year editions for games, so if FFXV has DLC it won't be a day one purchase for that reason alone.
     
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  5. Ejronin

    Ejronin Grand Eater of Bacon Veteran

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    Very astute. However, I'd also like to point out that Final Fantasy wasn't the subject of my sentence. See below 


    "What happened? Well, the industry isn't very keen on physical disk, prefer to bilk through DLC, and so the substance decreases with DLC giving a couple more hours of play for higher pay."


    What is the subject?

    The Industry



    Anything else you want to point out before I make a point of my own?


    FFXIII (typicaly used to refer to the entire subseries, XIII, XIII-2, XIII Lightning Returns) does in fact have DLC. 




    I have this compulsion to claim the Internet is your friend, but your lack of facts indicate otherwise...
     
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  6. Ejronin

    Ejronin Grand Eater of Bacon Veteran

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    The linearity in FFXIII was obvious because it lacked interaction so the player could focus more on the rails, but the fact is every FF title has been linear as are most RPGs. In FFXII there were no hidden avenues or anyone to really talk with and it was jarring to franchise fans. When FFXIII-2 came out, the fan base was turned off by how underwhelming FFXIII was for them. They weren't concerned about story arc as much as they were content shopping and side-questing in a familiar format; Square-Enix made a huge UX/UI error - they tried to make the player re-learn the system in ways that were too plentiful and too obvious. Hardcore fans did try and latch on to FFXIII-2, and many were still disappointed. 


    FFXIII-2 tried to repopulate the world and tried to mix it up a little bit by making the mechanic more dynamic, but they fell short in that they also tried to give a sense of urgency through timing and odd pacing. This was bittersweet to many players and though they liked a populated area, they didn't make sense of the story in context to the bigger picture. 


    Lightning Returns: FFXIII was a strong attempt to put back all the things players hoped for in FFXIII's first subseries installment but it also came very late and gave an impression that Square was merely using the subseries as a testbed for another project. Effectively, they shot themselves in the face. It wasn't a bad entry, in fact it was the best of the three but they focused too much on telling an Epic across a series rather than simply making a single title that was very long so as to truly cater to their core audience who cut their teeth on exactly that style. We can complain and point out all kind of strengths and weaknesses within the FFXIII series, but at the end of the day if you want to know what a company feels is truly their last best effort - look at the art direction and which it emulates. FFXIII took many artistic elements of FFX, and even the DLC was a throwback to FFX costumes. Why? To recapture the audience and say, "From our body of work, we know our audience believes this to have been the last in the series of greats."



    Yes, FFX was probably the last critically acclaimed FF in the franchise series. If FFXV doesn't make a very strong impact, then it will be finished.The biggest problem with the series wasn't just that they kept changing the formula, they failed to recognize that the hardcore fans were over the age of 25. Square tried to capture a younger base while holding on to the older base. The older base saw it was immature by comparison to the body of work and the younger base didnt have the patience or desire to "work" at the game like the older fans. It missed both groups, majorly. 


    Now, people still like it, but even the younger fans are in their teens and talk about FFX - a title released when they were just getting out of diapers. What does this say? More than anyone will be willing to read if I write it. 
     
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  7. amerk

    amerk Veteran Member

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    I think the decline of Final Fantasy, and rpg's in general, started when they removed key features of a traditional rpg, mainly world map, transports, exploration, and what not. 2d or 3d doesn't make a difference for me. I mean, I loved both Wild Arms and its remake Wild Arms Alter Code F. Both vastly different, but Wild Arms ACF still felt like a worthy remake for me because while it not only revamped the graphics (for its time), but also still managed to capture the essence of what Wild Arms meant to me while enhancing the story, the game play mechanics, and the characters, while also introducing new things.


    The moment that a game takes away from the franchise without offering much of anything new (except for better graphics), the more a franchise dies. With the case of Final Fantasy XV, though, I think this can work in favor of SE rather than against them, because it seems that the core features of previous games are being added in, while improving the formula, although the loss of control of other party members is a big downer. Turn-based or action doesn't matter (I like both). However, if Final Fantasy XV fails, it's not because it was the least Final Fantasy-styled game in existence; it's because in the past decade since the last Final Fantasy numbered game came out, the fans have become so divided that SE probably has no idea who their main target audience is anymore, and may be hardpressed winning back the fans they lost.


    Of course, this is still SE's fault for allowing it to get to this stage, and the damage may already be done, but at the very least Final Fantasy XV feels like it's shaping up to be a much better game than what FFXIII was. Whether it's enough to win back the crowd only time will tell.


    And for the record, Final Fantasy X is still one of my favorite games, but even then I didn't get a Final Fantasy vibe from it, as it was that game that started the trend of removing core features (such as world map and control of an airship), not to mention beginning the trend of spin-offs.


    And let's also assume that console gaming as a whole is dying, at least as far as rpg's go, because the ports on Steam seem to be doing very well (with a mixed bag of old Final Fantasy games and newer ones). It's possible the fans have just moved on from console gaming to other platforms (mobile, PC's, Steam, etc), and  a large portion of the current console gamers aren't interested in Final Fantasy. In that regards, the franchise may not be at an end, but SE may decide to eventually focus on putting their newer numbered titles on a platform other than consoles.
     
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  8. stupid enough to like FF13

    stupid enough to like FF13 Veteran Veteran

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    Okay, so let's get this straight. It's DLC's fault that a game without DLC isn't 130 hours long. Not that any of the FF games are 130 hours long, or that would anyone believe FFXIII is 15 hours long.


    But if we're going into semantics, I'd like to point out that a.) the first FFXIII did not have any DLC, which is what I was saying; b.) none of LR:FFXIII's DLC is even additional story or battles, just equipment; and c.) the "FFXIII DLC" you linked is LR:FFXIII DLC, demonstrating that you didn't even look at your own "proof".



    FFXIII was critically acclaimed. So were FFXII, and FFXI, and the reboot of FFXIV. Whether or not people can accept games they didn't like being popular and successful doesn't change reality.



    I would hardly say world maps and transports are "key features" of RPGs.


    But of course, that sort of thing just boils down to personal preference. Everyone likes different things in games, and everyone likes different games. The only difference here is that some people who didn't like a game desperately want to believe that it was a miserable failure, simply because they did not like the game.


    And there will be absolutely nothing different when it comes to FFXV. No matter how many people buy it and love it, there will still be people who adamantly claim the death of the series, based on nothing but their own dislike of it. And Squenix executives will still be crying because it isn't FFVII.
     
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  9. Ashouse

    Ashouse Resident Zombie Veteran

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    Yes, but they're already planning on destroying 7. "Episodic releases"??? Are you kidding me? Unfortunately, NO! They don't care about 7. They only care about money. Yes, a company needs money to survive, and a big company needs lots of it, but when that is the only focus you get soulless drivel like what the franchise is now. Final Fantasy is like Metallica; you play something from Garage Inc and St. Anger and beyond fans don't even know it's Metallica. It's lost too many of it's core members so the focus changed, the sound changed, the direction changed, and older fans bowed out. Yep. Sounds like Final Fantasy.


    And yes. Give me a D*** WORLD MAP!
     
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  10. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    I agree with lilywhite here. Who makes 130 hour games anyways? My record is 79 hours for Persona 3. How in the world do you get 130 hours for FF1? Wander around aimlessly forever? I've heard that FF1 can be beaten in a day if you have a guide and know what you are doing. As it is, when I played it, I felt like that all of ff1's playtime was aimless wandering with no idea what to do. I highly doubt anyone could make a game like that today and succeed.
     
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  11. Ejronin

    Ejronin Grand Eater of Bacon Veteran

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     Apparently context isn't a strong suit.... That's not at all what I was saying nor do I have the wherewithal to deconstruct the finer points into how the world works. Suffice to say, it is not DLC's fault anything - it's the industry, primarily distributors and publishers, that has driven developers to produce less primary content with the hope to sell DLC as ancillary income. Whether DLC is formative or functional doesn't alter the definition of DLC or that, as I pointed out in my prior post - all three titles in the series of FFXIII had DLC. Argue that all you want, but I assumed you hurt your fingers or something and posted the links to ease your educational process. I hit a point where I simply had to face facts - If my initial and prior post confused you (as it clearly has) then there's very little I can offer you by way of help. 


    I also didn't say that any FF game was designed to be 130 hours long... but I clocked 134:54:23 on FFVI because I did everything and read everything and went everywhere I could. I explored. Was that the design? Yes, yes it was in a sort of way. Was FFXIII 15 hours long? you can make it last that long if you see and do all they designed within. Whether it's worth doing and seeing it all is a different debate, and a subjective one at that. 

    You'd stand alone or at least in sparse company. Let's look at some facts:


    FPS titles with world maps: 0


    Adventure / Platform games with world maps: 0


    RPG games with world maps: lots


    FPS games with Transport: some


    Platformer with transport: some


    RPG with transports: most


    Maybe transport isn't key but its a distinguishing feature in most JRPGs and a hallmark or FF and staple in nearly all RPGs. Maps, however are an integral part of an RPG because all RPGs entail an adventure that requires distant travels. Dragon Age, Final Fantasy, Dragon Warrior, Legend of Dragoon, Xenoblade, ChronoCross / Trigger, Seiken Densetsu, Suikoden, Tales series, Atlier series, even Hyperdimension Neptunia series and Disgaea have maps and they're hybridized RPG titles. Which is my point - despite the type of style of RPG these games are, they're all RPGs and they all have maps. For F's sake, you're on an RPG Maker forum... guess what, MAPS are a overt feature and at the very least one of them is an overworld style map pulling from the foundation of RPG gaming. You may as well have said, "guns are hardly a key feature in an FPS"

    It was, but comparatively it wasn't. All FF titles are typically given a rave review. The franchise set the pace for the genre, regardless of whether it was first out of the gate it captured mass audience quickly and held them for almost 20 years. That's what keeps it going: nostalgia. That's why FFVII remake is episodic - because they know the love of the title and franchise will equate to money and that's why, ultimately, FF will die but more, needs to. At that point, anyone participating in the monitization of a title based on improved graphics and gimmicky features to contend with current trends, is enabling the bastardization and mutation of a culture to something sinister and handing over the reigns. Control of a franchise is or was at one point with the fans. Because they clung to nostalgia, publishers did as they pleased. There are several examples of this in gaming history, with very few developers shunning publishers for this practice. A more applicable analogy is the music industry - same four chords, same lyrical premise, different shiny box. Will they buy it? Yep. Why? because they're sheep-lemmings. 

    Yes! And there was a reason I did that. What reason? Because if you looked you'd then point it out, thereby showing that you didn't know what you were talking about before you started talking. So, pretty much you've invalidated your statements and shown that you have a history of speaking without knowing. What reason does anyone have to give merit to your claims now? uh, none. 


    Not a chess player, I take it.
     
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  12. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @EjroninI've checked, and I can't find any DLC on record for FFXIII (the original one). What DLC did you find for that game? Even gamefaqs has no record of any DLC existing for that game. Curious as I can't find any evidence that this game had DLC. However, records are around that show that FFXIII-2 has DLC, and yours I think was pointing to FFXIII-3 having DLC.


    On another note though...I really think play time is a poor indicator of whether a game is good or not. I clocked hours on Record of Agarest War and near the end I was wishing the game...would...just...END. However, I just played Tomb Raider (the one from 2013 I think it is) and beat it in about 12 hours. However, those were 12 hours that I enjoyed the game I was playing. So you can have a good 7 - 8 hour game, and you can have a poor 100+ hour game. Play time is a poor indicator of quality. In fact, I could make a 200 hour game easily...random battle every step with 1000000 HP slimes.


    In fact, may of those old games we fondly remember that have a high play time were really just padded by high random encounters or other monotonous tasks that hardly anyone enjoyed. But, we put up with it due to no other options. I've been replaying the old Gold Box games (1988 - 1992 era) recently, and I'm amazed at how much of my play time is just doing a fight every 3 steps. But, if those were removed, you'd have a game you could beat in a day.
     
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  13. Ejronin

    Ejronin Grand Eater of Bacon Veteran

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    see here:

    It was a planned ruse to trap her in her own argument on two ends at once. Devious, yes. Effective, obviously. 

    I agree, but in the RPG world, 12 hours is not much time to develop story and character or provide much for players to latch on to. Games like Tomb Raider are more of a DO type game where you're solving a puzzle and moving to survive - totally different concept and thought pattern. People love Call of Duty - campaign is 4 hours if you're moderately proficient in FPS. 


    I do think game time dictates game class though. 4 hours, that's an arcade class. For example, racing games. Gran Turismo isn't a 4 hour game to complete. I dont care if you're a racing God, 4 hours wont do it. That's because Gran Turismo is a simulator - they take time, practice, and knowledge of the activity. Project Gotham Racing or NFS was a short game made with an arcade mindset. We see these in other genres too, but not in such contrast. RPG arcade style games are like Hyperdimension Neptunia, made to play in short stints because the story isn't really a primary focus as much as the mechanics and so on. Same with Record of Agarest War or Disgaea. On the other hand, Witcher, Final Fantasy, and Dragon Age are story driven titles that require an investment in time and lore to truly extract the details for enjoyment. 
     
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  14. stupid enough to like FF13

    stupid enough to like FF13 Veteran Veteran

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    In terms of chess analogies, this is waltzing into the Fool's Mate and thinking you won somehow.
     
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  15. Niten Ichi Ryu

    Niten Ichi Ryu Grey Lords Emissary Veteran

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    This thread is becoming like Sisyphus and his rock. Tedious, long, and always rolling back down the same hill.
     
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  16. Ejronin

    Ejronin Grand Eater of Bacon Veteran

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    Well at least you know where you went wrong. I explained the reason why I listed XIII as having DLC. 

     
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  17. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @EjroninReason for it or not, by rules of logic, it does make you incorrect. If the first FFXIII game has no DLC, and you claim it does, then you are wrong if indeed it has no DLC. Plus, it is commonplace for people to refer to FFXIII when they mean the first in the series, not the entire series.


    As for the play time point, there is still such a thing as a game overstaying it's welcome. Some games you still like playing after 50 hours as they are still fun, and some games you want to stop playing at the 50 hour point as you are so bored of it. Disgaea I think is still fun at the 50 hour point. Record of Agarest War wasn't though.
     
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  18. Ashouse

    Ashouse Resident Zombie Veteran

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    ... but is the biggest troll here the OP, posting a thread like this on a site like this and KNOWING the CHAOS that would ensue???:D
     
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  19. Niten Ichi Ryu

    Niten Ichi Ryu Grey Lords Emissary Veteran

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    I have always suspected @AwesomeCool to be an agent of Chaos :)
     
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  20. Alexander Amnell

    Alexander Amnell Jaded Optimist Veteran

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       To be fair, most of the people participating here have been reasonably respectful with each other even when their opinions may differ, and it isn't the fault of the community at large whenever someone wants to bandy about generalizations and declare everyone who disagrees with them as "idiot fanboys and liars". The breakdown of civility becomes somewhat inevitable at that point regardless of most of our better wishes.
     
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