Final Fantasy is feared to be a dying franchise that has long passed it's peak to Square Enix...

Discussion in 'Video Games' started by AwesomeCool, Apr 14, 2016.

  1. Ashouse

    Ashouse Resident Zombie Veteran

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    True, it has been cooking on low heat. It seems like this particular community has some merits. I'm still surprised at the atmosphere of general helpfulness and usually friendliness that I find around here most days. Mainly being jaded from reading other forums. So I guess when the low heat kicks up around here it has more impact on my psyche. LOL ;)
     
  2. Niten Ichi Ryu

    Niten Ichi Ryu Grey Lords Emissary Veteran

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    More than cooking on low heat, it has already simmered, then boiled, then went out of the pan, then cooled down, then someone just added a little bit of heat, and it quickly boiled again and was near going out of the pan again.


    If you are brave check the previous pages of the thread, you should see a pattern.


    Indeed that community has some merits in its civility. When  someone turns downright insulting and belittle everything that goes against that someone's opinion on a topic, in sometimes seemingly clever but actually mainly smartass childish replies, we still are foolish enough to stay civil and keep a attempt at discussion.


    Picture this thread in the Steam community now..
     
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  3. amaSenpai

    amaSenpai LP: amaSenpai Veteran

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    So, my two cents on the final fantasy series.


    I am in the group that feels anything after FFX is... Well, boring. For a while I didn't really care for X either, but replaying it made me appreciate a lot of things. But my initial dislike had helped me realize what I don't like about the newer installments.


    1. Like many have stated, there is an unnecessary amount of plot confusion. I think it stems from trying to match FFVII in terms of story complexity. Interesting somehow has turned into crazy twists in par with Tsubasa... And that's when you get the feeling of having things shoehorned in. I personally did not enjoy 8, but many did. For me the story didn't make sense in the way they told it, as if they had a way to end the game but didn't know it until half the game was developed.


    2. The reason I didn't initially like X was because of how much effort they took to show off how pretty the game was. The cut scenes never ended, and because I didn't care about the love story the videos were annoying to watch. Graphics seem to drive almost all the big games now, and I think showing off how cutting edge the company is seems to take precedent over gameplay.


    3. The world has gotten smaller. Someone said that Square was going for installments because it was popular, but I don't agree. I think it's impossible for companies to ever create game worlds like they used to without seeing it as a risk. It used to be that you could go all over the map, explore the ocean, fly over it, and in some go under the ocean or to space. Even FFX got rid of the player exploration and changed the airship to "hub ports" that you clicked. The newer games are linear now. Fights, cut scene -- next objective. No exploring the map for caves and upgrading to the ultimate weapon with things that dropped from a super rare enemy.


    Then there are my own issues with the decision making from square. Putting the only female character of the new game coming out.. (I can't even remember the number anymore) to the side because "guys can only be guys without women", and getting rid of a ridiculous outfit because it was too sexual to be on a guy. (HAH)
     
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  4. Ejronin

    Ejronin Grand Eater of Bacon Veteran

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    When people talk about a specific FF they dont generalize but when people talk about FF as a series as was and is the case, FFX includes (typically) FFX-2 and FFVI includes the add-on story, FFIII is known to mean FFVI (if you still run into people that make the SNES reference) and not Mystic Quest, FFT is standalone from the series, and FFXIII includes the subseries because they're separate from each installment in major ways. She hadn't made clear she meant ONLY FFXIII as a separate entity and if it is what she meant, then she'd have pointed it out by saying XIII-2 and LR:FFXIII wasn't the 'subject' if it was as commonplace as you say. She missed several key opportunities to be clear - rather intentionally if not from lack of aptitude.


    Moving on...
     
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  5. AwesomeCool

    AwesomeCool Bratty and spoiled little sister Veteran

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    @Ashouse and @Niten Ichi Ryu - MUHAHAHA


    But seriously...


    I never intended for "Chaos" or for the entire discussion to be about whether FF13 is good or not (also kind of why I dropped out of the discussion).


    I was hoping to get some discussion about the future of FF (which I am passionate about) and not the past.  Sure the past should be brought up, but Square Enix is talking about Final Fantasy as a series no longer being desirable by gamers (and thus reluctant to continue it and may even stop making them).


    Not if fanboys are hating on FF13 unfairly or not (unless Square Enix counts as a fanboy).


    After all, if fanboys are being unfair to the new Final Fantasies, does that even matter to Square Enix?  If it isn't selling enough for them, it isn't selling enough for them and that is what matters to a business.  


    That is why they are trying to innovate more and more to try and get people back, to which I think just going back to Final Fantasies roots will be enough to get gamers interested and I think innovating more for the sake of it would hurt the series more then help it.


    Which is the point of this thread, to generate discussion on how Final Fantasy should continue.


    ...and hot topic discussions always head in chaotic directions as people feel strongly about it and get emotionally involved in it (which is fine by me, shows that people care about the topic).
     
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  6. Niten Ichi Ryu

    Niten Ichi Ryu Grey Lords Emissary Veteran

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    yes, but you know, by experience and time passed on this forum that every discussion about FF series always ends up the same. It's civil, developed and cool headed until someone make the "mistake" of saying that he disliked one or several aspects of FFXIII. It then wakes always up the same beast that cannot let even one person have a negative advice and move on with her life. Then people who feel attacked or are shocked by immature behavior are dragged into it, and Sysyphus goes back to push his rock in the same endless tartarian supplice. Tbh the problem isn't the fanboys hating FF13. It's the one loving it too much.
     
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  7. Mako

    Mako Veteran Veteran

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    This is probably the 60th article I've read over the years from all sorts of varying different Square and former Square developers stating they don't feel like they've surpassed VII. I think these kinds of topics will honestly drive fanboy debates for probably the rest of our lifetime. Each game offers it's own flavor of game if you will. Each resonates with fans differently and each player relates to a main character or villain differently.


    One thing is for sure love it or hate it FFVII success and fan drive is no fluke, I think nearly everybody in the industry has commented on VII success. One thing that astounds me is VII fans drive and willingness (more than any other entry) to spend. Not that there concrete numbers but various comments back these  numbers up. At one point Kaz stated FFVII was the most classic digitally downloaded title three years in a row. FFVII fans speak with their wallets. Heck the spinoffs sell more than most main Final Fantasy titles.


    I hate to sound shallow but in todays world with information at any gamers fingertips despite it's recent hate (mostly from VI fans) people still turn out in droves just to get as glimpse. In todays world sales probably equals a better game. Sure you'll have your occasional game go under the radar especially indie, but it's very rare to have a major published title overlooked. Word of mouth and access to information is just to predominant. In other words, people know about [Insert your favorite version here]  have for some time. The reason why it just doesn't add up (most developers comments not mine) is unknown, what we do know is people like it "less" or at least not willing to show that they care. 
     
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  8. AwesomeCool

    AwesomeCool Bratty and spoiled little sister Veteran

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    @Niten Ichi Ryu - I find that a problem with all game defenders.  Publishers end up not even getting feedback to improve there game for nobody can voice there criticism without being personally attacked.


    I can tell you that a hater, no matter how irrational, is better for the game then any fan who will defend the game at every turn.  For at least the hater could bring up a point that could help the game improve for the better, while a defender will keep the game being exactly the same with no change (same faults and same pros, all stagnation).


    @Mako - They are saying that it hasn't just failed to surpass 7, but the series as a whole might not being made at all due to the series generating less and less interest (and might not be worth making anymore).  FF15's director is basically saying that he will prove them wrong (which may or may not happen).


    And no sales does not equal a good game, especially in games.  As many games sell like crazy (ex: Evolve, Star Wars Battlefront, Assassin's Creed: Unity, Call of Duty on PC, etc), but have the community die off in less then 3 months (PC communities generally die in 1 month due to having many more options to), while other multiplayer games are played for years (Demon Souls, Call of Duty 4, Halo 3 beating Halo 4 community numbers, etc) and live for 5+ years (Starcraft is still being played).


    It is harder to tell for single player games (for nobodies quit time is shared), but many games will be stopped talking about incredibly quickly (like Watch Dogs) and others will be talked about for months upon months (GTA series).
     
  9. Ejronin

    Ejronin Grand Eater of Bacon Veteran

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    I think much of percieved staying power of VII was the fact it was the entry point to an overwhelming majority of the current culture.


    In my time, it was a debate between VI and IV, then VII and VIII. VI has been rereleased ad nauseam. Now, it's VII that will have that happen. People will buy it. I bought it on PC when it first ported and would stare at the pristine PS copy on the shelf next to all my other games just as I did when they released FF chronicles and origins despite already owning the originals and rereleased on every other format I could find.


    I am an FF fanboy but because of this, I prefer the solid preservation of the franchise from a cultural standpoint and want someone to recognize the series need the DNR respected.


    I love having conversation where people are like, "yes, I remember feeling shocked and angry  when Aeris was just killed" and not hearing "well, yes, but I think in the update it looked better." Sure, but the event and effect were the same, which was the point but thanks for validating eye candy and devaluaing the concept and literary aspect. 


    Still, publishers will ride their money out as much as they can and I get that too. It's not stupid but it gives every reason for the fan base to become polarized and diffict to track, thus more difficult to ask developers to continue making a solid title that brings new and old players together in solid support. 


    It's become diluted because of delusion. 


    As @Mako said, poor sales don't really have much to do with a game as good but it drives the perception - and its not the gamers fault. Outlets like GameInformer shape that reality in their "writing." IGN and Joystiq did it with how they talked about titles leading with sales and giving publishers rather than developers a platform to talk, and N4G with how they designed the aggregation to push popular articles instead of substantive ones. Gaming has become like EDM; when I was a DJ, it was about music and then corporations took the small and powerful and cloned it to no end... Now we get skrillex and pop DJ/ producers who churn out the equivalent of oatmeal...plain oatmeal. Is it wrong? Depends on your outlook - but the effects are indisputable and the culture suffers, largely unaware.


    It's more expensive ($60 for a game 10 years ago meant 20-40 hrs of play - now it's a standard 8-15 with a season pass at $45 with another 8-15 at $110 total cost if you choose - not to mention that "season" passes are showing up on titles and genres that previously hadn't really seen that market style. AND it means the longer a title is supported with content, the higher a cost of ownership becomes - which may encourage a play and dump or even 'crack addict' style of gamer), less substantive (much of the writing is trash now and games are pushed with more bugs and problems than ever before just to get to market...like The Division), and full of gimmicky items (3D tvs and games? They tried to push that HARD and it didnt happen, now it's VR which isn't very different in some ways while also being very gimmicky) that serve no purpose but to distract others in an ongoing creative lull and give an excuse to spend money on what boils down to proof of concept instead of validating anything already in existence. 


    This is how a culture truly dies.
     
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  10. Alexander Amnell

    Alexander Amnell Jaded Optimist Veteran

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    @EjroninI think you make a lot of valid points, not just for Final Fantasy but for entertainment media in general. Unlike you, I'm not a Final Fantasy fanboy. When VII was released for pc I bought it but that's from having lost the original ages ago and wanting to relive the nostalgia. I really think the biggest problem is that companies won't let series' die when they should and move on, instead moving on in spirit by innovating everything possible while clinging to the same IP in the hopes of generating more sales which just leaves the fanbase divided unnecessarily. Fallout 4 was the worst for me there, my younger brother and I were wasteland/fallout fanatics growing up, and as such we have watched the series devolve from a complex openworld narrative about hard choices and moral equivalency into a casual fps consisting almost solely of radiant quests that end up being nothing more than a shoot-em-up no matter what the mission's initial premise. As far as shooters go I cannot say that the game was bad, in fact I'd prefer it over playing Call of Duty any day but at the same time it is so dissimilar to what made it's namesake great as to be undeserving of the distinction, which taints my opinion of the entire game for the worst.


       I understand that it's hard to let go of the things that made our childhoods great, and defined our passions but I have to agree with Ejronin that it's necessary to let these series die when they've run their course. Pretty much everything I see released these days is a remake of something else, whether television, music or games and it's sad to me to see almost everything devolving into a quick cash grab exploiting peoples nostalgia and even worse, seeing new and truly innovative titles deserving of attention and a solid fanbase (Neir, Spec Ops, Lost Odyssey, The Last Story, Enslaved etc) falling by the wayside because they can't break through the generational clout of now-generic cookie cutter titles leaching off of the past successes of predecessors that they really don't have a claim to kinship with in the first place.
     
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  11. Ejronin

    Ejronin Grand Eater of Bacon Veteran

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    @Alexander Amnell


    It's rather refreshing to see someone identify the difference between regurgitation and resurgence; renovation vs innovation. 


    I believe it's important to just accept death - if anyone can't or wont then they're being immature and childish. If the culture gave it life then we must too take responsibility for it's death.


    People change, the setting changes, the mechanics get scrambled, but there are several unifying themes present in all Final Fantasy titles: A rebelling sovereign state,  a culturally diverse cast of adventurers, an evil antagonist, manifest destiny, biology vs technology, and some form of altruistic suicide are present in the central plot in every game. Where the series retains one audience throughout the vast series is where they lose it in another through their slots like mix-matching of the formula. The fact that they can reinvent the formula without getting a different answer speaks volumes to the very generic basis they've operated.


    I wish, no PRAY, for the death of Final Fantasy. I know you said you weren't a fan boy - and hey, it's not the easiest title to get into - in fact, people either really like it or they just dont and that's fine. CoD is that way and I really hate it because I'm not fooled by it - and that's okay too. 


    I’ve grown to love Final Fantasy in a similar fashion to family, so writing that I believe it should be let go is not something I do lightly or with irreverence. It was my introduction to RPGs, spurred the development of a friendship between one of my three best friends of over 32 years, and has always been the gaming safety blanket I’ve kept close to shield me from utter boredom when the industry was in a slump. But now I look at it as I did my sick and elderly grandmother wanting little more than the pain to just end - it's what's best for her and the memories of others and I have to stop being selfish. 


    Don’t kill this because it is told differently over and over, legitimatizing the oxymoron “same difference” through one continuous (and contemptuous) encore. No, kill this because with each iteration the focus has moved from plot and mechanics to keep the audience retained with graphics and nostalgic nuances that don't transfer because of graphics. Don’t kill it off because people can’t decide if VI, VII, VIII, or X was the greatest Final Fantasy, no, kill it off because people can’t figure out if a game from 22, 19, or 17 years ago was better from 3, or 4 console generations back. 


    I used to do a lot of OpEd writing on gaming, and I'm watching a resurgence of the same fights had 10 years ago with the same arguments over the same titles and it isn't telling me that the fights are unresolved - it's telling me that the industry is thriving on stale staples by successfully looping younger generations into eating food that's expired. I feel people shouldn't only want it to die but get angry that it's not dead yet. Push for real and difficult innovation not shellacking and renovation.


    How dare they try and make a spectacle of my grandma!


    And, I believe anyone who states, "but... (insert excuse to keep it going)" is too immature for the conversation. 
     
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  12. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @Ejronin: I think you bring up some good points here. There comes a time when we need to just end a series. Some of my favorite TV shows and games were ones that had a clear beginning and end, and it was designed like that from the get go. I've brought up Quest for Glory before, and one of the reason I think I like it so much is from the day they started the game series, they knew exactly how long it was to run (originally 4 games, though they added one midway to better explain some parts of the plot, and got 5 games in the end). When they made the last game, they wrapped it up and moved on. No milking it for a little more $$$ with spin offs and such.


    Another example is the TV show Babylon 5. The producer wanted to make a 5 season show, and they did just that. As such, most feel it ended with dignity and let us move on. However, nowadays, we get TV shows that go onto 12+ seasons and end up just turning into a train wreck, and on the way they lose the original fans (Numb3rs is a classic example of this, though some might argue 24 did it as well. I'm sure there's more but I don't watch that much TV so don't have more current examples). Video games are the same, they only seem to stop making games in a series after a bad game or two which ends the series with a train wreck of a game for the final game. Why not go out decently, and leave the fans with fond memories of your game (or series) instead? Instead, we milk it for all it's worth, and in the end we alienate almost everyone.
     
  13. amerk

    amerk Veteran Member

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    I never said all rpg's, I said "traditional", as in the common jrpg's we were getting prior to Final Fantasy X. The majority of the traditional rpg's during that time all had world maps, exploration, player-controlled travel (be it a boat, ship, land cruiser, Chocobo / or some other weird form of animal travel, or airship). Not all rpg's had these, and certainly not all of the jrpg's, either - games such as Secret of Mana and Illusion of Gaia come to mine, but that was fine, too, as it gave us a wide variety of different rpg styles to play with, and I loved them all.


    Regardless though, all mainline (numbered) Final Fantasy games prior to Final Fantasy X had these key features. Even while SE experimented with the battle and leveling system (between job classes, AP systems, turn-based versus ATB), they always had a world map that opened up the further you went, and player-controlled methods of travel. From Final Fantasy X onward (not sure about the MMO's) those things were removed.


    Final Fantasy XV does attempt to bring back those core features, as I mentioned in my earlier post, so we will have to wait and see if it's enough to bring back the fans. In any case, one of three things will happen:


    1. The game will be a smashing hit. Old fans who are turned off by Final Fantasy XV and have not been happy since Final Fantasy IX will no longer be the target audience, and will either have to adapt to the changes or get left behind. There are plenty of indie games out there (mainly on PC and mobile these days) that will feed their need for the old style turn-based rpg.


    2. The game will continue to divide the fans and will be a decent hit, and SE will have to decide how to improvise the future of their franchise.


    3. The game will fail as a result of loss fans and not attracting enough newer ones, that they will either abandon the series, count their losses and try again, or move it to another platform.


    I don't see number 3 as a likely option, but I'm not discounting it either, since even Tabata implied this would be a make or break for the franchise, which leads me to believe that there are some on the staff who are not entirely convinced that Final Fantasy XV will be a massive success. Time will tell.
     
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  14. stupid enough to like FF13

    stupid enough to like FF13 Veteran Veteran

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    I'm not even going to be subtle about it.


    Wanting a series that millions of people enjoy to end because you don't like the recent games is disgustingly selfish.
     
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  15. amerk

    amerk Veteran Member

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    Is that in regards to my post? Because I never said anything about wanting a series to end, just that the possibility is there, and it won't be the end of the world if it happens.


    Edit: Never mind, I think you're referring to the one above me. In that case, I don't think they're saying they want it to end, just that sometimes a series becomes so bloated that it may be time.


    At the very least, SE may want to consider revisiting some of their other forgotten franchises and giving Final Fantasy a bit of a breather for now. I'd love to see a new Chrono Trigger or Mana game, but haven't seen one in a long while.


    Edit Number 2: Drat, Lily's quote didn't show up for a long time, which is why I was confused. Yeah, that comment I don't agree with. Praying for an end sounds like somebody was butthurt, but I think the vast majority do want the Final Fantasy name to live on, but it may require a lot of changes.
     
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  16. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @amerk: My money's on #2. Just because I don't think at this point you can please the FF fanbase as it is so divided. After all, we got those that think FFXIII is the best game in the world, and those who think any FF game after FFVII is awful, and FFVII is the holy nirvana of RPG's. But then again, I don't think it is possible to please a fanbase of millions, as everyone has different things they like in a game, and heaven forbid you change or remove any of it.


    @lilywhite: As usual, you take our posts out of context. I think the poster above me summed it up well so I'm not going to bother adding onto it, as you'll probably take that out of context too.
     
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  17. Alexander Amnell

    Alexander Amnell Jaded Optimist Veteran

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    @EjroninDon't misunderstand, I'm an avid FF fan as well, just not quite fervent enough to consider myself a fanboy. Also I was using Wasteland/Fallout as an example specifically to avoid attention from a particular individual...unfortunately it didn't work as intended. That individual should note, though I'm no longer addressing them any longer, that no one is saying that Square, Bethesda or anyone else should stop making the new games that new fans like, only that they should stop including them as continuations of old series', exploiting the nostalgia of old fans and dividing the fanbase between older and newer fans. Which shouldn't be able to be argued in the slightest, that divide is clearly there or this conversation would not exist.
     
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  18. AwesomeCool

    AwesomeCool Bratty and spoiled little sister Veteran

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    Every good thing has an ending.  And an ending now could be better for the series to help it end on a better note.


    Fans constantly want something to continue indefinitely (which is understandable for they love it), but endings are very important for a series to have.


    ...and I would rather it end on a high note, then on a low one.
     
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  19. Ejronin

    Ejronin Grand Eater of Bacon Veteran

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    Not like recent games? The last Final Fantasy entry to the greatest ever with any kind of merit was X. FFX was on PS2... FIFTEEN YEARS AGO. 


    I don't know how you are, and my guess at it may be offensive, but if the 'greatest ever' was a DECADE AND A HALF ago....you do realize that in most cases, five more years make it an antiquity, right? You do understand that the entire body of XIII hasn't been brought up as a 'greatest' in the common debates by anyone, even Square. As you say, Square execs whine about anything after VII not being VII... and that's not telling you anything? Maybe I ought to guess your age...


    Wanting a series to stay around because you can't identify that the 12 other titles in the series are exactly the same story in a rearranged fashion is intellectually bankrupt


    Failing to see that longevity in this case has damaged both the cultural and business end, is intentionally irresponsible.


    Repeatedly defending an indefensible premise from opinion rather than fact is ethically obtuse.


    Being guilty of all three is just fundamentally unlikable.
     
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  20. amerk

    amerk Veteran Member

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    Agreed, I mean my order of plays went from Final Fantasy 1 (NES) to Final Fantasy VII, Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy IV, Final Fantasy VI, Final Fantasy III (DS, not the SNES), Final Fantasy XII. I really can't say what my favorite one was, but my least favorite was FF3 (DS). But the loss of controlled airships and world maps did sit a bit sour in me, just not enough for me to complete lose interest.
     
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