Final Fantasy is feared to be a dying franchise that has long passed it's peak to Square Enix...

Discussion in 'Video Games' started by AwesomeCool, Apr 14, 2016.

  1. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @Ejronin: Even if we called FFXIII the greatest game ever, didn't it come out in 2010? So it's still a long time ago in gaming years.


    @amerk: Glad to see I'm not the only one who thought FFIII was poor. That last dungeon, whoever designed that should be banned from ever making games again. 2.5 hours with no save point? And my play order went 7, 8, 6, 5, 10, 9, 10-2, 12, 1, 2, 3, 4, 13, 13-2, 13-3. Though that was more due to me not having a Playstation until 2004, so I had to play 7 and 8 on the PC when it came out on there. Then it was catch up time!
     
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  2. amerk

    amerk Veteran Member

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    The decade or so since the last single-player numbered Final Fantasy game may have had a had in pushing out the fans, as they went on to other things. Which is why I'm not keen we will ever get a new console Breath of Fire or Wild Arms game again, or at least one that lives up to the previous games.
     
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  3. AwesomeCool

    AwesomeCool Bratty and spoiled little sister Veteran

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    @Alexander Amnell - I would prefer a game series to end then continue just because fans want them to continue.  A story is better with an ending and will be judged the most based on the ending.


    Ex: Mass Effect 3.  The ending sucked all the fun the rest of the game had and all games that go on for to long tend to end with a wimper then as a classic to be remembered.
     
  4. Ejronin

    Ejronin Grand Eater of Bacon Veteran

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    Yes, if you're looking at release outside of Japan. Each subtitle in the series came out in two year intervals (2012 and 2014 for the following two releases). It's got hallmarks of being a sort of test bed for episodic release structure they've talked about with VII remake, which makes me wonder if the whining happening in the SquareEnix side of things are merely alligator tears. 
     
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  5. stupid enough to like FF13

    stupid enough to like FF13 Veteran Veteran

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    There's a difference between FF (where each installment is its own story) and a series where each installment is a continuation. Dragging on the latter kind of series can be a problem, but in the end, a series should end when the creator(s) wishes it to end/


    A series should not end just because some people don't like where it currently is, even though there's many who do.



    In other words, you simply don't care that other people have different opinions about the merits of games than you. And that's what wishing the series to end boils down to: not caring in the slightest about all the people who enjoy the current Final Fantasy games and want more Final Fantasy games because you don't.


    Say, for example, you like Dark Souls. I hate Dark Souls. What would you think if I were to "pray" for no more Dark Souls games to be made? What would you think if I hoped that games I don't have to buy or even acknowledge were never made? Would you even care in the slightest?



    Another example of a game millions of people enjoyed, but some people didn't, and devoted themselves to obsessively attacking the game, the fans, and the creators every chance they got, even if what they were complaining about had no basis in reality.


    And what do you know, they're making a new Mass Effect. And many people are very excited for it. And they don't care in the slightest what the people still screaming the same thing in comment sections four years later think.
     
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  6. Ejronin

    Ejronin Grand Eater of Bacon Veteran

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    No, not in other words. In the words I used - that's why I used them. I think I've established a vernacular that exceeds whatever 'assistance' you try and provide just as others have demonstrated an ample ability to effectively extract my meaning; your assistance is appreciated but unnecessary


    I'm beginning to think that when you start with "in other words" what you're really asking for is for my statement to be diluted for your comprehension level. If that's the case, we're all friends and you can simply say so. I'd be happy to oblige and I apologize for assuming you're as capable as everyone else thus far. It's not a mistake I intend to make again. 


    But since you bring it up - no I really don't care that other people have an opinion. In fact, I take very seriously the ability granted in the limited but far reaching First Amendment. I think you meant to say, or rather accuse - was that you believe I don't care what the opinions of others are in contrast to my own and therefore reassert something of my character in a veiled attack upon it. Is that correct, are you attacking my character? I feel as though you are...so...


    Let's not attack my character - you don't know me in any capacity aside from a single thread on the internet and as much as I'd love to engage with you on that level, being pugilistic with you wouldn't satisfy the craving.


    And, you're wrong. I care what an opinion from another may be, especially if it's actionable. There was a very specific reason I joined the Army years ago. Whether my opinion damages someones delicate sensibilities - no I don't care and see no reason to care because there's nothing that says i must care and because I like to believe other's wont alter their opinion or presentation of their opinion so that I don't cry. Doing so would cast the opinion they think I'm weak or need coddling and I don't. I'm a big boy and am fresh out of Fs  - well not fresh, but my 'concern-o-meter' is in the red. 


    So really what it sounds like is that because I'm not holding back my opinion I'm being mean and hateful. Do you need a hug and to be coddled because the mean ol newbie disagreed openly and repeatedly? Are you weak? No? Then put on your adult pants and stop pretending to be a victim making defensive responses that attack character of people you know nothing of.
     
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  7. Ejronin

    Ejronin Grand Eater of Bacon Veteran

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    Sometimes the play order gives an interesting perspective to the personal value in a game franchise and give context behind why certain things are in a game and where it came from. Because I didn't play mass effect on Xbox and only started in ME2 before playing 1, some of the mechanics changes made more sense because I knew where they were moving from to start. 


    The thing about the FF series is that no matter the order, you're not missing the core story since it's just a retelling of the same thing in different ways. That's part of what I enjoy about it; it's like someone else's account of the same story and it can make a difference in how a player attaches.


    There's no wrong order in main numbers to go through it, in my opinion. 
     
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  8. AwesomeCool

    AwesomeCool Bratty and spoiled little sister Veteran

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    And yet that is how it is going to end, when enough people stop buying the games.


    Which will happen if the series continues losing interest from new comers and fans (and people that prefer the older games are just as much of a fan as the newer fans).



    The difference is he liked atleast one FF game and you never liked a Dark Souls game.  So it isn't just about hating a series, but wishing the series to end on a good note for him instead of it becoming something he will end up hating.  


    Also, Square Enix is thinking of stopping the FF games, not the fanboys.  Thus they are not getting enough people interested to consider it worth it, so maybe that group isn't all that small after all.



    Apparently the group was big enough for Bioware to go out of there way to make dlc for it.  I doubt they would spend resources and delay projects for a very small group.



    That is because people can be optimistic.  The past does not dictate the future.
     
  9. Ejronin

    Ejronin Grand Eater of Bacon Veteran

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    Another prime example is Hideo Kojima and Metal Gear. MGS4 was a beautiful ending to an amazing and riveting story. He intended to let it go there and he did, until he got sucked back in from the debacle with how Konami handled his absence. Now we've got an episodic series of MGS5 and though it's not poor, it's a little jarring in areas when the audience knew MGS4 closed any forward motion. Is MGS5 bad? I actuay really like how it was handled but it lacks the continuity the previous entries had while also offering an optimistic avenue for at least the fifth entry episodes.
     
  10. stupid enough to like FF13

    stupid enough to like FF13 Veteran Veteran

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    Except FFXIII sold very well and the FFXIV reboot is quite successful as well. Then again, was anyone crying over FFIX? Or FFXII? Or even FFVIII, which is also one of the best-selling games in the series despite the constant complaining about that game.


    To say Final Fantasy is "losing interest" is blatantly false, and to hope for the death of the series out of such belief is nothing more than think games that people who aren't you like shouldn't even exist.
     
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  11. Ejronin

    Ejronin Grand Eater of Bacon Veteran

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    Holy infant Jesus on a burning stick!


    When people stop buying it, or voting with their wallet, it ends - there's no exceptions. You will always have someone buy it, but the metric by which Square defines "enough" is not something the developer or the fans can define. It's defined by the publisher and their ideal profit margin against the opportunities within their market and risk of continuation versus seeking a new IP that could project higher profits. This is how business works. 


    To you and I, the end-user, we exist in a culture of gaming but long ago the culture handed over control to publishers. Electronic Arts and Activision slyly introduced ways to steal back control. We, to them, are numbers given value by money spent on genres that matriculate across a series. Years ago, a new title within a series would be released every few years, FFVII was what, seven years coming and the fans jumped out of the woodwork in unbelievable numbers. To put that in simpler terms, VII was 7 years in the making - 7 years of work. XIII was...3, XIII-2 was 2 (or 5 is the series was all made at one time and the timed release was a profit ploy). Did the quality of XIII match the fan metric for quality of VII? Substance, no, not overtly. 


    FF sells because of nostalgia for the earlier series because of hope. In that, each installment is compared to earlier titles because they fail to deliver what an overwhelming opinion of quality. You can argue that because YOU liked XIII and that it sold well, any inkling it wasn't "good" or represents what's wrong with longevity is simply misplaced in the same fashion you claim a counterargument with an exception - investigating numbers and having a firm and working knowledge of both sales and marketing will tell you all you need to know about the flawed position you're taking within your arguments. You're being a fan-girl, and that's fine but accepting facts isn't. 


    I'm going to assume you lack that kind of life experience, which is okay but innumerable individuals here and in the past have brought up the same points to you time and again, seeking various ways to add facts to your opinion. You're resistant, not because you don't believe them, but because you do and it doesn't fit squarely in the image of your beloved series. You're tired of being told that what you hold dear has lessened value among others. It's alienating and disruptive to your sense of security within your opinion. So be it. If you can't handle facts it is not the problem of the society around you, but it makes you the problem for the society in which you're existing. 


    You may not have worked in retail or in any capacity with accounting and marketing departments on a corporate level as I do. This is exactly why we see re-release of IV, V, VI, VII, and VIII. IX re-release hasn't had much movement on Steam compared to VII or VIII. If your statement was true, the install base would be larger, not smaller than older series entries in percentage and re-releases wouldn't continue to top charts over new releases. 


    Final Fantasy is losing the interest of user base and the reasons are as obvious as they are plentiful. Retrospective analysis of sales over the franchise have gone down. Look at percentages - they're scalar which is why they're used. The user base of VII was smaller than XIII so raw numbers show more copies sold for XIII (I think they planned on 2 million and 6 million sold world wide), but VII sold 2.3 million copies in 3 days. the total sales expected for XIII was what VII sold in three days. Final Fantasy XIII sold 1 million in Japan on day one, and 1.9 million worldwide by the end of 2010 (meaning that globally, it took a year to come in under day one of just Japan sales) and by 2013 6.6 million copies shipped (not sold, plus it accounts for the re-release as a 'greatest hits.'). It took three years for XIII to triple the projected sales to what VII did in actual sales within three days on a global scale. Fathom that for a moment and ask yourself if you really want to break it down by the numbers as a way to extend 'proof' of viability. Hint: Don't, you seem all too happy being dunk on fantasy - this reality is quite sobering


    To boot the critics scored each successive entry to XIII a full point lower than the previous entry, starting at 9 down to 7 by LR:XIII which coincides with a decline in install number through the series of XIII. XIV wasn't a commercial success in the way they wanted so the FF moniker didn't assist the sales and neither was IX. X reset the tables and sales soared. People said it was a rebirth for the franchise... and then X-2 came out. Many felt it as feminine (understandably) but it also codified the real story and the mind-screw that Yuna endured (as does the player if they're not savvy to foreshadowing). Subsequently, the X-2 mechanics saw a revamping in XIII's paradigm shifting. XIII brought nothing really new and fans saw it almost immediately but also felt it was an improvement on XII. XII is almost as good as X in my opinion but not many share that opinion either.  


    From wikipedia:



    Try as I might, I see nothing remotely close to that for ANYthing related to XIII (or the series of). So, FFVII released in 1997... almost 20 years ago has a faster selling, higher selling, better rated, more loved base...than, practically any other FF title and you're on about "but XIII isn't bad." Sure, no said it was bad. Everyone says it wasn't as good and the numbers support the facts more than your personal opinions. And, I'll remind you that the release of XIII was in 2010, some of the awards and recognition of VII was after XIII released WW. 


    You're clutching to the franchise like a toddler and her blankie but I don't take your words without understanding and empathy - I get it. I will hurt inside when it dies too, and there's a part of me that wants it to go on forever, reaching for some lame rationalization to defend whatever I feel inside. Just like my father, I don't get a say in IF he dies or even WHEN he died because it's not a variable, let alone one I can (or should) control - its inevitable - and when my dad got older and I watched the man grow weak, unable to be as his own image of youth - strong and loving to my mother, his children, sharp of mind and quick with wit - a provider and protector, I was at fierce odds with myself. Do I encourage him to stay around, carry the hope he'd never die and act as if any stumble wasn't anything serious and blow if off with a fake smile pretending it wasn't going to wind down to a stop? No, because that's lying to yourself. If you lie to yourself and believe it, then you'll lie to someone else and I don't trust those people, ever. 


    I made the hard reconciliation that I needed to prepare myself to say goodbye and to respect his decision to come to terms with his own death prior to. I hated it. I resent that life makes these stations a requirement, but I can't change it. I had to acknowledge it was not my wish, but my duty to give him the space and ability to be as he was, and let go - a moment of strength where he could be in control again rather than try and tell him how wrong he was because I didn't like facts. The hardest thing for me to do next to giving my first son up for adoption was looking at my father in a coffin and saying goodbye. I'd have loved to give up a few of my years for him so that he could meet his other two grandchildren, so I could get advice and to apologize for what I'd done wrong in life - but aside from the physical impossibility, that's a really effing selfish reason I'd expect from a effing child. So, I liken FF coming to a close to a death in my immediate family because that's how passionate I am about games and this series in particular, but I'm not so illustriously stupid and selfish that I would ever hope to prolong the suffering of my family and the friends within my family by extending it past the prime. I want to remember the youthful joy and excitement, not watch the withered husk of yesteryear fade and break down because the girl next to me hasn't come to terms with a reality she can't and wont control, or because she can't figure out how to say goodbye against a clock that's running out. It's not something I say with any irreverence to the quality of life but in recognition that quantification in life is not a qualification of life lived. If you haven't lost anyone in your family, I don't think you'll quite get what I'm saying and though I hope no one in your family dies, I know they will because there are no exceptions to or for anyone at any time. 


    To negotiate and rationalize a synonymous relationship betwixt them is incorrigibly unpalatable, and unfortunately for you - you have zero authority or weight in opinion to alter the facts of how it's playing out. No one does. Stating piecemeal and cherry picked data to corroborate your own BS isn't validation of any type of any form of reason. It's an antithesis of itself and severs making a record of inability to adult properly upon your own image.


    I have no better way to explain the depths of your shallow approach to this quandary and how astounding the maneuverability of your immaturity has been presented. Like, it's actually an impressive feat to see happen with such fanfare and practiced faith.  I have no idea whether you're just naturally self-defeating or if you are truly blinded by darkness from your head being so far up your fourth point of contact. You cling to such nonsensical and illogical conclusions that I can only sum it up by stating two things:


    Correlation does not imply causality nor does independence imply non-causality and that somehow you have this equivalency disorder that you'd assume because some old movies are black and white and some penguins are black and white, then some old movies are penguins. 


    Anyone should know that whether now or later, FF is going to end. It started as a last ditch effort by a man who desperately wanted one final game - hence the series name. It wasn't even planned as a series which is why there's no real continuity in the series as a serial franchise,  so believing that because others like it the lifespan is indefinite is moronic at best. Run from the facts all you wish but know you're going to die tired. 
     
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  12. Uzuki

    Uzuki Kawaii on the streets, Senpai in the sheets Veteran

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    Personally if Square want to keep making entries in the mainline FF name then I say let them. My tastes in games are constantly changing and I don't mind if someone tries something new with an old IP or new IP. I don't mind if FFX was took out the "exploration" of world maps and direct of the airship. I think this is my personal opinion, but I see that a lot people think that FF games have huge open ended worlds with multitude of branching paths when in reality there are very little or none at all. For the most part you don't even get to explore the world map until endgame and that's where I find most people remember their exploration coming from. An example is FFIX. People swear that it's open ended with so much to do from the moment that the game introduces the world map, but when you actually walk around you're gated from going anywhere. There's always a mountain, ocean, tornado, or conveniently placed road block to prevent you from entering areas until the plot demands it. When endgame time comes sure you got a airship or golden chocobo to ride on, but there are very few actual new places to visit and your mostly just revisiting areas, because the road blocks are gone. So it was shocking when the most common complaints for both X and XIII is that they're linear when the other games are too, but have sideareas and paths to mask it. XIII was just the first one to not have those things and so got flaked for it.  


    I think Square has been learning and has been slowly trying to get back into the fans good books. Bravely Default and Second, callbacks to the older games but with a modern gameplay and storytelling, are a rounding success and they have been able to keep their MMO base happy for the most part. Even their newer mobile games are able to quell some of us old timers. I'm excited for XV and although I feel that most of the emotional magic that went behind FFVII will be lost, I feel that Square can due the remake some justice. It's all perspective and sometimes we all have to step out of our point of view and experience it from another angle. 
     
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  13. stupid enough to like FF13

    stupid enough to like FF13 Veteran Veteran

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    It should probably tell you something that you wrote up that many words in response.



    And to quote Wikipedia:




    You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about, and you are perfectly well aware of it. You don't even care how easy it is for people to disprove your arguments.


    And the sad thing is, even after pointing this out, the cult is still going to praise and cheer your claims, despite them being proven factually inaccurate. Because they are just as obsessed with bashing a game for no reason other than that people who aren't them like it.
     
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  14. Ejronin

    Ejronin Grand Eater of Bacon Veteran

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    Yes, it tells me exactly what i wrote. I'm not exactly cryptic here, in case that escaoed you.


    That's the ONLY thing you have to say... really? I'm impressed. I was certain you'd have more to extract and debate than a timeline oversight. 


    Okay I was off on development times. Criminal, I know. Fact changing? nope. Good try, thanks for playing - feel free to walk away with a lousy version of our home game kiddo. 


    I pull from what I thought I remembered reading in PlayStation magazine almost 20 years ago. Sue me, but it is interesting you point out that VII had less development time (and more technological challenges) than XIII - effectively, XIII had more time to be better and do better, and didn't.


    Lastly, it's customary to read over your post:

    That "s" on the end of 'date' - it pluralizes. So, why did you list one date?


    Oh, because you wanted to appear correct. In fact, you had to intentionally delete the JP identifier from a copy and paste. See?



    So what's your story on that?


    Why did you shoot your integrity down in public like that?
     
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  15. Niten Ichi Ryu

    Niten Ichi Ryu Grey Lords Emissary Veteran

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    @ejronin I really enjoyed reading you. But I'd say leave it now. You are wasting your time. No one has ever managed to post any negative comment which even remotely involved FFXIII without provoking an onslaught of name calling accompanied by singling out of pieces of comment to give a generally out of context reply from this forum user.


    It is rather sad because she is sometimes rather insightful on non ff threads like game mechanics and all.


    There are plenty of other good threads on these forums :) I'm sorry for @awesomecool because he (or maybe she, never figured out) tried to start an interesting conversation, but maybe it is time to let that thread die as well.
     
  16. AwesomeCool

    AwesomeCool Bratty and spoiled little sister Veteran

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    @Niten Ichi Ryu - Why do people keep thinking I am a girl?


    Not trying to be rude or anything, just curious as the reasons behind it...


    (it says that I am a guy in my profile right?)


    @Ejronin - It has been a long time actually taking a forum debate that seriously.  I will suggest to try and not waste your time.  I find that people generally do not follow up on such things and would rather move the goal posts around like a soccer lawn care service, insult, and/or just target people who present a worse argument (and ignore the good arguments).


    Also, I have learned not to try and fight with you as you know how to debate (and analyze) really well. :p  


    (but seriously, you are really good at presenting your points.  Go become a corrupt politician and get rich or something lol)


    back on topic: What makes FF13 the only game that is considered talking about in this?  Square Enix is talking about the franchise as a whole (more specifically every Final Fantasy after 7) and FF15 is already being shown to be completely different then 13.


    Have people lost the ability to talk about anything else related to FF but FF13?
     
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  17. Niten Ichi Ryu

    Niten Ichi Ryu Grey Lords Emissary Veteran

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    @awesomecool, when I first started to discuss with you via posts in these forums, months ago, your avatar was the splatoon squid girl, so I still have that mental image. But I know you're a dude. Just had a brain cramp when posting.


    And people were not centering the discussion around FF13 originally. But when it came up, in the middle of a post talking about other FFs too, the beast (figuratively) was summoned, as usual.
     
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  18. Uzuki

    Uzuki Kawaii on the streets, Senpai in the sheets Veteran

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    I think that it's a combination of reasons.


    Part of it was the release time. Not because of the actual year it came out, but rather the time it came out for the franchise. Enix had finally settled in with the merging of Square and with that stability was finally established. Unfortunately due to this process a lot of key figures that had been there for years had left the company and the new blood out numbered the old. FFX was finished and SquareEnix wanted to capitalize on that popular title and so took the former cutscene director, Motomu Toriyama, and gave him the directer role for X-2. Although not perfect, the game was considered a success and started the trend of SquareEnix following the popular trends of culture and gaming in Japan at the time. A separate team was working on FFXI and, although not bad, this was a time when everyone didn't have consistently strong internet service and the subscription prices were to high to keep up for the most of the fanbase and so divides it. FFXII is considered to be a huge departure from the FF formula and thus divides the fanbase even more with people who wanted classic FF on one side and those who feel FF needed to change on the other side. With almost 10 years since a "proper" mainline FF and with the fan base on the decline, XIII was going to be the deciding factor on what FF would become going further. With it's release XIII acclaimed positive critical reception from journalists and, most importantly, the Japanese fanbase.


    With this information, and some behind the scene troubles, all focus was put on making the FFXIII the new corner stone of FF going forward and completely dropped the Novella Cyrsilis Sage. After that the rest is history. Old fans felt that the new direction wasn't for them and dropped out of the fanbase while the newer generation latched onto it. Projects where announced and canceled. And Square still insistes on chasing whatever is popular at the time, but never finishing anything on time to cash in that popularity and thus looks like an old man trying to be hip and cool. There's other factors and I'm just giving the barebone details on why it fractured an entire generation of fans. 
     
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  19. Ejronin

    Ejronin Grand Eater of Bacon Veteran

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    I think FFXIII (et.al.) is part of the discussion, not by selection but by default because it is part of the body of work. Whether it's an anchor on a short chain in deep water or a baloon is a rather obvious determination, especially comparatively - which is how the corporate sector has to view it along a timeline - to the chagrin of the fun police looming about. Does the series trend up, down, or look like a sine wave on crack? Overall, after VII, it hit a decline in many areas other than sales. The SGI project that ushered in VII was, in some respects, the very foundation for decline - the reliance and cater to eye candy. But it was a pretty spectacular move for the genre. In fact, it's what inspired me to learn and use Nendo / Mirai (a very old 3D modelling software package). 


    Years ago there was a debate regarding whether this move would ultimately kill off the franchise because it was a move that catered to mass appeal rather than core support. But, it turns the naysayers were right, but not for the reasons they were claiming at the time. Square didn't have much choice to move to 3D as the console industry was already in that position. Sure there were other sprite based RPGs on the PSone and they did okay, but the fact VII broke almost any RPG record and retains several still is an overwhelming credit to the intelligence of the move. How that was handled thereafter is something else entirely. 


    FFXV is important for two reasons - 1.) several interviews, and the cover article in GameInformer 'magazine' highlights the developers and staff understand the pressure to produce something that has to not only amaze fans but do it in a way that the executive officers approving funds to remain in the IP hit between the best and worse case scenario. Fans have listened to the interviews and have empathy, I mean - as I said before, the franchise started as an final move to pull a company out and it worked. So, part of it is strategic language and placement. 2.) it will be a title that saves an IP from finally being finished, or drives the final nail in the coffin. Both positions are extremely important and nether positions warrant going out with a whisper. 


    Will the franchise live? Not my call but if the finances are so wrapped up in the IP that it stifles the creative funds for new or different potentially successful IP, then all the more business reason to douse it out. I know, it's a 'selfish' thing to say, but I'd also cut the gangrenous foot off a child to save their life... also probably selfish to a foot fetishist, but I'll go to confession tomorrow and feel no different because a fetishist shed a tear and frowned in my direction. 
     
  20. Niten Ichi Ryu

    Niten Ichi Ryu Grey Lords Emissary Veteran

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    you cracking me up man :)


    plus you do make a lot of sense. I like you already.
     
    Ejronin likes this.

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