Final Fantasy Series

monkeynohito

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Speaking of characters, what makes a cool/good character? I didn't like sazh at all, I prefer lightning or snow. My favorite ff character of all time is Zidane hands down though.
To me, the big thick boundary between good and bad character design is whether the character is defined by who they are or what they do with the worst being defined solely by what happens to them. Plot-based development is adequate for a villain though.

I think Cloud was a pretty good character that way. His motivations are murky while you, the player, are being dragged by the nose through the story, but he gains development as you, the player, gain more autonomy in the game world. Tragic history is revealed and it's a bummer because it's just junk that happened to him, but it turns out he's just been lying and living with the shame of that. It turns out he really is a badass, he really did do something besides sit in a corner and let plot happen to him.

Zidane and Vivi on the other hand, are pretty well-defined, solid characters early in the game until the story eventually diffuses all of it with background plot. They go from knowing who they are to having no clue in a complete inversion of character development.

Even comparing Terra to Celes, Celes has a personality that fleshes her out just a tad more than Terra, who is snapped from from one tragedy to the next and never gets a chance to develop her own persona. Terra's just a collection of sad events and you either feel sorry for her or not. Celes gives you enough person to like or dislike.

The answer is Gau. You were wondering who the best character is, it's Gau.
 

LionHeart48

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You know who Gau reminds me of?

 
  
 
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Touchfuzzy

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I think Cloud was a pretty good character that way. His motivations are murky while you, the player, are being dragged by the nose through the story, but he gains development as you, the player, gain more autonomy in the game world. Tragic history is revealed and it's a bummer because it's just junk that happened to him, but it turns out he's just been lying and living with the shame of that. It turns out he really is a badass, he really did do something besides sit in a corner and let plot happen to him.
Ok, time to play "I know more about Final Fantasy VII than any reasonable sane man should".

I'm going to have to explain some things first, because there are lot of moving parts to explaining how Cloud ended up the way he did.

The Calamity from the Skies: Jenova.

"It looked like... our... our dead mothers... and our dead brothers. Showing us specters of their past." -Ifalna on Jenova.

The first thing you have to remember about Jenova, is that it is a shapeshifter. But not only can it take the looks of whatever it wants, it can mimic their personalities and actions. Jenova has the ability to read surface thoughts, and adjust its actions to your expectations.

The second thing: Jenova can assimilate other beings. By infected another being with its cells, it can mutate and manipulate them. Actually, if you pay attention in the story, something really kind of disturbing is revealed: Monsters are possibly the descendants of the Cetra that Jenova infected before she was put in a dormant state by the last pure Cetra.

What is the process used to create Sephiroth, SOLDIER, and Sephiroth Clones?

This is a neat one, and something that isn't touched on much in the translation. I don't know how much of this is because of bad translation, and how much is just stuff that wasn't even in the original Japanese. Most of my knowledge here comes from a combination of some things we DO see in the game (Sephiroth project) and things from the Ultimania guide.

So the first thing let's covers is Sephiroth. Sephiroth was a human being who was injected with Jenova cells while still in utero. Every bit of his DNA is permeated with Jenova cells. This increased his strength and gave him "special" powers beyond normal humans. He is effectively a human/jenova hybrid.

SOLDIER. Members of SOLDIER are screened for two things, the first is for actual ability. I mean they were elite troops and all, but the second was a strong sense of self. We'll get to why in a minute. They were injected with Jenova cells and given Mako showers, enhancing their physical abilities.

Sephiroth Clones were a thing created by Hojo. They were created from the survivors of the Nibelheim incident. The theory Hojo had was that Jenova cells, given time, would try to reconnect with each other. The process used to create them? Injecting them with Jenova cells and giving them Mako Showers. This is why Cloud could pass as an ex-SOLDIER. He actually did have the same abilities. So what is the difference? Unlike SOLDIER members, they weren't screened for a strong sense of self. They also were traumatized by the Nibelheim incident. Because of this, they were left much weaker to the manipulations of Jenova.

What the hell happened to Cloud?

After the escape and Zack's death, Cloud was still in a fugue state. Most of his memories were buried underneath trauma and the manipulation of Jenova through the cells. He wandered toward Midgar because that is what Zack told him to do. That was when Tifa found him. And this is where we get to the interesting bit!

The Jenova cells in Cloud acted on instinct, doing what it had done in the Cetra in the past, it pulled the memories off of Tifa to try and figure out how Cloud should act. Tifa remembered Cloud leaving to join SOLDIER, so that was what it picked up. It combined this with Cloud's memories, and it used his memories of Zack to fill in the blanks of what a SOLDIER was supposed to act like.

Cloud wasn't lying, and he had no shame for lying, because he had no idea that what he believed wasn't 100% true. The "voice" that keeps talking to him throughout the game is his real self, trying to make him remember, trying to reassert itself, but he didn't have the strength of will to manage it.

So how could Sephiroth control Cloud?

Sephiroth has a sense of self that is huge. How huge? Like, seriously huge bro. See here is where it starts to get interesting as far as what Sephiroth is doing the whole game. Unlike every other being that Jenova had ever infected, Sephiroth was different. It couldn't control him. Instead, Sephiroth controlled IT. And through it, he could control every other being Jenova controlled. Actually, something not mentioned in the game itself, but is really neat, is that Sephiroth never leaves the crater in the entire game. The thing you are chasing the entire time is Jenova shapeshifting to appear as Sephiroth, under Sephiroth's control. That is why you keep fighitng Jenova pieces each time you run into it.

So why couldn't he control Cloud late in the game?

THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP. No really, through his connections with the other party members, Cloud gains self confidence and a strong sense of self, allowing him to ignore the Jenova commands.

And here is where I really like Cloud in Final Fantasy VII: Cloud was a loser, who failed at everything he tried to do, who was completely brainwashed, experimented on, and had his mind deconstructed by an alien superbeing, and in the end, he grew, he became stronger, and he learned who he was. And because of that, he was able to Omnislash Sephiroth's punkass into the lifestream.

Source: I wrote this like, 100% from memory (other than the quote, I knew the jest of it but couldn't remember the exact wording so I looked it up), so it may not be EXACT on on every point. Most of my memory comes from Ultimania guide translations and playing the game a lot. So booya.
 
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ShinGamix

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Good lord how can anyone possibly think to have a decent reply or post after that.

I want a FF9 sequel plz
 

Seacliff

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If we are going on to the topic of sequels, there are a couple I could go for. The only ones we have are for X, XII, and IV if that even counts...
 

Kaelan

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Ok, time to play "I know more about Final Fantasy VII than any reasonable sane man should".


I wonder how much of that was lost due to poor presentation, compared to just poor translation. I remember playing War of the Lions the first time and having a few "holy ****, that's what happened?" moments reading the new, much better translation.

Also screw you making me think about FF7 remakes again, I could have sworn I was over that by now
 

Engr. Adiktuzmiko

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XII has a sequel??? where where...

X,XIII has sequels I know...

as for 14, the soon to be released FF XIV is a remake of the old, XIV, so I won't consider that a sequel....
 

Kaiser

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Touch you are perfect with that description. I hated what SE did to cloud in advent children (I can't say KH since that's a separate cloud, until KH2 when it is advent cloud) and kept the depression even in Dissidia, which in a game I hoped for the return of the cloud I enjoyed in FF7. 

@adiktuzmiko XII has a sequel. Renevant Wings.
 

Engr. Adiktuzmiko

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Ooh... I never knew that one... XD...

EDIT: I see, it's a DS release... I'm not much into DS releases (only on KH,ValkyrieProfile,pokemon and HARVEST MOON)... 
 
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monkeynohito

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Ok, I'll edit what I said about Cloud - Cloud is presented as a confused sack of non-functional plot-bait, (Insert everything Touchfuzzy said), leaving him all grown up as a developed character with his own persona beyond the events that should have defined him.

At the same time, Sephiroth was caught in a downward spiral of losing his self to Jonova with just enough ego left over to think that Jenova's aims were his own. Sephiroth, a man defined by persona, kinda lost a battle with plot and his persona was sacrificed as a result. You could say he regains his persona in the end just long enough to understand he deserves to take a healthy dose of Omnislash.

At any rate, these are characters with enough personal depth that it's an enjoyable experience to try to find the subtext of the story that makes full use of that characterization. Not trying to pick any fights with anyone who liked XII, but to me those characters could have been anyone else in those same circumstances. Being a princess with a magic stone was the only character prerequisite for What'shername and I didn't find her personal development to move much beyond that; she was just reacting to plot along the path of least resistance.

Except Balthier. Balthier is my wifu.

BTW, I -do- think FFX had decent characters, I just think there was way too much focus on Yuna without putting her in the main role.
 
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Touchfuzzy

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Balthier and bad guy mad scientist Cid are the only two characters from FFXII that I can give a **** about.
 

Seacliff

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Sorry, I meant to say XIII, and it came out as XII, but yes, if that does count :p then I would count IV: the years after. I wasn't talking about the DS remake, the sequel on Wii ware and PSP.
 

LionHeart48

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Is the sequel to XII revenant wings even good?
 

Dark Phoenix

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It has a prequel.

It's called Vagrant Story.
If we're going to play this game, technically FF12, FF12:RW, Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy Tactics Advance and Vagrant Story all occur in the same universe, at different points in time.

I never played Revenant Wings either, but my understanding is it does a much better job of fleshing out the characters of Vaan and Penelo (probably because unlike FF12 itself, it was written around the idea of Vaan being the protagonist; Vaan was most definitely not the protagonist of FF12).
 
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soulcrona

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Same with 10 and 7 if you din't know, but that doesn't say oh 7 or 10 is a sequel to one another
 
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SLEEP

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Is the sequel to XII revenant wings even good?
The battle mechanics are basically 12's battle system, converted to an RTS style combat system. Combat and field gameplay are separated. Most of the game takes place on a floating island which didn't appear in FF12, with an overhead map, a'la tactics games. Select your arena for battle! Later battles will test your "zerg rush" and "dear god did I click the right place" skills. You have the ability summon Yahri to battle, which are Espers and monsters from Ivalice, then send them to attack your enemies, which is where the zerg rush factor comes in. You just gotta be popping those guys out and bowling over your opponents! The stylus can feel imprecise as well. There are some gimmick mechanics in certain missions, but they are... gimmicks. Not actual variety! Battles get way too cluttered to have precise individual control! Which means the entertainment factor is way shorter than the game. You can turn the tide in early battles in the game by unlocking the right Yahri to use! Later battles get kinda RNG based, rather than skill based, which is never a good sign. The game took me 40 hours by the way, I could have probably finished it a few hours quicker, but for a casual play I think its about right. But for the last bit of my time with it, it was wanting to see the end of the plot more than a huge fun factor. Speaking of!

The story is character-focussed, and not at all world driven. Again, the game is set on a floating island, and for the brief time you spend in Ivalice, you see few things, and it feels really small. The plot is accessible even if you haven't player 12, focussing on the plight of an angel-like race hidden to Ivalice until Vaan hosed it up, so it's more a new story than a continuation of 12's. But... If you want to learn more about the characters of 12, the story is worth playing through. It also brings Vaan into the role of protagonist leading man in a really satisfying way. Actually, if you want to learn more about Vaan, Penelo, Fran, Balthier, the kid who talked for 2 seconds in the cutscene of FF12 when Vaan was introduced (Kytes), some random kid from Lowtown (Filo) but she has a hoverboard, and NEW ANGEL CHARACTER, it's good. Ashe and Basch appear, but not much. I really enjoyed the story, hopefully my summary doesn't sound too down on it, but that's what to expect from it without spoilers.

I guess i'd summarize by saying it's a more compact, handheld sequel of FF12.  :thumbsup-right:
 
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ShinGamix

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Balthier and bad guy mad scientist Cid are the only two characters from FFXII that I can give a **** about.
I feel the same way Touch but I did like the dark portrayal of the battle chocobos and all the Airships at the end!!


But What About FFT (Final Fantasy Tactics) For PS1? The "Advanced versions" do not continue what I love about FFT for PS1! Come on square make the game as big as Disgeae 2 or 3 and I will buy two copies and a PS4 just for it!!!!

Red Chocobo MOFOS! Choco Meteor the World! Up your Zodiac! Come on and

BTW I think that putting all the other FF characters like Cloud in FFT game an idea to Kingdom Hearts and maybe even the D-name FF Fighting game. (It sounds like Disgaea too!) Dissidia!

Things done right in FF

FF9

I love all the mini-games in FF9! Especially Choco Digging and the Tetra Master version 2! The comical feel of the game and the Opera scenes just made this game great..

FF6

I cant say enough good about this game except the story was a little weak at times! Espars and you even get to control Maduin in the Espar World! By far my fav FF character ever is...Intercepter!!! yes the DOG!

FF7

Yes I like this game but not as fanatical as most people! Materia system way better than the draw system of 8

FF8

I can't stand this game sorry..but Moomba and why would i buy a PocketStation though?

FF4 

Red Wings!!! 

FFX

NIce Game did everything right that FF8 didn't! I have to battle who Sin again! 99 times felt like!

FF12 

Balthier, Choco Knights, and a war of Airships was cool! 

FF13

Havent played it yet.

FFT

four pages later would be saying good stuff about it but it needs to be bigger! I beat it in one sitting. Still Love it!

Mustudio, Delita, betrayal, politics, CID! Red Chocobos, Ghosts, Molboros! <3
 
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doriantoki

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FFT

four pages later would be saying good stuff about it but it needs to be bigger! I beat it in one sitting. Still Love it!

Mustudio, Delita, betrayal, politics, CID! Red Chocobos, Ghosts, Molboros! <3
*looks at Brave Story game clock, which is over 1000 hours*

Uh ...
 

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so hopefully tomorrow i get to go home from the hospital i've been here for 5 days already and it's driving me mad. I miss my family like crazy but at least I get to use my own toiletries and my own clothes. My mom is coming to visit soon i can't wait to see her cause i miss her the most. :kaojoy:
Couple hours of work. Might use in my game as a secret find or something. Not sure. Fancy though no? :D
Holy stink, where have I been? Well, I started my temporary job this week. So less time to spend on game design... :(
Cartoonier cloud cover that better fits the art style, as well as (slightly) improved blending/fading... fading clouds when there are larger patterns is still somewhat abrupt for some reason.

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