Final Fantasy Series

Berylstone

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I don't mind action/rpg hybrids, I just don't want every game to be a hybrid.
I like a few action/adventure games.  Zelda comes to mind.  And there are a few others like the Secret of Mana series.  I am not sure if those are an example of what you would call "action/rpg" hybrids.

But when games like the Final Fantasy series start making me dodge booby traps and jump to moving platforms it does admittedly get on my nerves.  And mechanics like these seem to be creeping into every RPG game out there these days to the point it's been pissing me off, to be blunt about it.

So I agree with you and think we need at least one genre of games where we can sit down and play without having to worry about dodging crap all of the time.  Because a lot of times I'm just not in the mood for that kind of game.  Especially as I get older and find action games less and less appealing for some reason :(
 
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Touchfuzzy

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I remember a story I had heard a long time ago, it was about a guy who worked at one of the nintendo hint hotlines, and there was an older gentleman who called all the time just to talk to him about playing Dragon Warrior II. And how he liked it because he didn't have to have reflexes, and he apparently played this game to death and just called the hotline to talk to someone, he didn't even need help.

It was kind of a cute story.
 

Berylstone

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I remember a story I had heard a long time ago, it was about a guy who worked at one of the nintendo hint hotlines, and there was an older gentleman who called all the time just to talk to him about playing Dragon Warrior II. And how he liked it because he didn't have to have reflexes, and he apparently played this game to death and just called the hotline to talk to someone, he didn't even need help.

It was kind of a cute story.
I can relate to that older gentleman^^. 

Finding a game these days that doesn't punish you for not having fast reflexes is like trying to find a diamond in the rough. 
 

orochii

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Let's make games for that old man! When I grow up (?), I want to be like him.

Games from today think that action is the way to do stuff. But we already have enough of that. Even ATB had on it's time a Wait mode for a reason, because not everyone likes to be pushed, or not every time. For some people, playing is a relaxation activity, from work and stuff.

But okay, let's TRY to be objective. FinalFantasy is a game designed mainly for teens. This young lad/lady, the overall character design, this forgiving story (there is no real tragedy -or maybe I'm too tragic -?- -), this package of action!!1! Young people likes action! or so they say.

Maybe it's just that I want more hardcore games. That don't try to be as hardcore as possible, just hardcore,

Orochii Zouveleki
 

Eschaton

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I just can't help but think that turn-based combat is kind of an artifact.  Something that only happened because of the limitations of the technology at the time.  But a lot of modern RPGs can still pause and let you evaluate the situation.  KOTOR, Dragon Age, and Mass Effect have features that let you pause the game and still give commands to the characters while evaluating the field of combat.  And I still prefer not to do that, but I like how the option is there.  I roleplay that being able to pause and give orders represents Shepard's superior situational awareness.

I felt that the real-time, but able-to-pause combat style of Final Fantasy XII was a great step forward.  I thought the series would continue to limit the intrusion of menus (and un-break the programmable AI of the party), but FFXIII returned to turn-based, menu-based (albeit simpler and streamlined) nonsense.  To me, the series regressed.
 

Touchfuzzy

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I somehow think that "variety is great" is a much better viewpoint to have than "every game should play like how i want them to play."
 

Eschaton

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Dammit, every game should play like how I want them to play.

Obviously, I kid.
 

Berylstone

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Chess (arguably one of the greatest games ever created) is turn-based. 

And playing a game of chess with a friend can be challenging without any reflexes involved.  So I don't think just because a battle system is turn-based that automatically means it's a relic of the past with sub-par gameplay.  I really do believe a turn-based system can work well if designed properly, even by today's standards.  Because like chess, it leaves the door open for a lot of strategy.  And mixing strategy with RPG elements is an addictive combination, at least for me.
 

Eschaton

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Speed chess needs good reflexes.
 

Berylstone

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I guess that depends on what you mean when you say reflexes.

To me there is a difference in hand and eye coordination and then playing speed chess and needing to quickly formulate strategies in your mind. 

Is the quote button broke?  I can't seem to quote anyone.
 

Eschaton

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I make it a point not to quote anyone.  BD
 

Berylstone

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I'm the opposite and usually like to quote... but either I'm being stupid or the quote button has malfunctioned.
 
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ProfPeculiar

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What is with all of the hate for FFVIII? Yeah, there were times when the gameplay was a little clunky, and Squall was arguably one of the most emo characters in the series (still better than Sasuke from Naruto or Hope from FFXIII) for probably the first third of the storyline, but the storyline was VERY deep, it actually made you take time to think and figure out exactly what was going on, there was no shortage of surprises, and, I'm sorry, but it had arguably one of the BEST love stories in the series. And while I can respect people not liking FFVIII and FFIX because of the gameplay (not so much FFIX), saying that the games are nothing but garbage? Unforgivable. Unless a game is just a blatant, out and out intentional rip-off with no attempt at any sort of innovation or originality (with of course some notable exceptions on either end of the spectrum), there is no excuse to call a game garbage. Say you don't like it or that it's just not your cup of tea, but do not call it crap just because you didn't enjoy it.
 
With that being said, if gameplay and graphics are the primary things you're looking for in a game, then I have to say, RPGs may not be the genre for you. RPGs, for me personally at least, have always been about the story, and the characters.
Also, with series like Final Fantasy and the Tales games, which are a series of COMPLETELY UNRELATED GAMES, comparing one game to another within the series is completely unfair. Personally? I'm glad that Square Enix has tried evolving the games it produces over the years. Are any of the new games what I would call personal favorites? No. Is that because they're nothing like the older games? Perhaps, but I don't fault them for that, and I have found something I like in every single Final Fantasy game I've ever played (with perhaps the exception of FFXI), which includes every main series game from the original Final Fantasy (the NES version can be Satan incarnate if you don't know what you're doing) to FFXIV, excluding XIII-2, as well as Legend II on the GameBoy and Tactics Advance.
 
So I guess in summation: stop hating, don't call it trash just because you don't like it, and accept the fact that progress isn't always a bad thing.
Oh, and about the post I saw about games like IV and VI being droll and boring: really?

EDIT: On the subject of FFXIV, the remade version, A Realm Reborn, is quite good. It is still an MMO and plays as such, but if you're looking for a good MMO with a Final Fantasy flair to it, XIV more than delivers now.

Haha, I lol'd when I saw the Shivacycle. At first I was thought "hmm.. two Shiva's? Nice.." Then they turned into a Harley Davidson. o_O
What's next? An Ifrit unicycle? 
 
I would ride that puppy into the sunset.  B)
 
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Berylstone

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Seems my Quote and Paste buttons are still not working ;_;

I usually take some abuse because of my affection for Final Fantasy 8.  I am used to it.

I agree with you the game had a great love story.  It has also had a plot full of surprises.  Perhaps it was a little out there for a lot of people.  But I still thoroughly enjoyed it.  It was very unique. 

As far as Squall goes... I am not sure what the word Emo means.  The online dictionary describes it as being overly-excitable.  I would agree Squall was a brooding and touchy character earlier on in the story.  But he did mature as the game progressed and showed a lot of development at being more social.  I think that fact tends to get over-looked.  Far too many protagonists have static personalities in my opinion. 

And let's not forget Final Fantasy 8 opened up with a sword fight to Japanese Opera.  That was one of the most bad ass openings in video game history.  That game really knew how to hit the start button.  
 

Eschaton

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Final Fantasy 8 is WAY to abuseable.  It exemplifies the conceit that you can 'equip' anything (even gods), and use anything as a construction material for high-tech weaponry (like, for example, junk, or bits of animals).  Its story is also...

I'm not particularly fond of it.
 
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Berylstone

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That's fine. 

If we all liked the same things life would be pretty boring.

But I would argue a lot of the final fantasy games are "abuseable".  For example, on final fantasy 3/6(which is one of the more popular ones) I had literally thousands of Atma Weapons, Illuminas, Paladin Shields... ect.  Kefka couldn't even last one round against me.  And you could two shot just about everything on the game with invisible + X zone (or what ever that spell was called).
 
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orochii

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That's fine. 

If we all liked the same things life would be pretty boring.

But I would argue a lot of the final fantasy games are "abuseable".  For example, on final fantasy 3/6(which is one of the more popular ones) I had literally thousands of Atma Weapons, Illuminas, Paladin Shields... ect.  Kefka couldn't even last one round against me.  And you could two shot just about everything on the game with invisible + X zone (or what ever that spell was called).
And that's when people that have mastered one Final Fantasy (or every one of them) start doing challenges. Speaking of 3/6, Low-level natural magic only solo Terra for example. And we can be way more specific lol! I actually like that kind of stuff...

But yeah, I agree on that point. Every FF game has a "overlord" level where you can one-shot everything.

WARNING: Massive spoilers ahead for FFs up to 8. Just in case you haven't cleared one-two of them.

On the original FF, I don't have much idea of what can you do, but let's say today I saw a guy beating Chaos at lvl18-17. Just manage to kill Chaos before he does Cure4, and you're fine.FFII had a bunch of abuseable bugs (insta-kill drain sword, magic leveling), a broken spell (swap), and anyway, after several hours of grinding you could obliterate anything without any effort.

FFIII, the Ninja and Sage classes. Spam attack and Curaga till death. Everything dies. Or the onion equipment, which can even kill an undefeatable boss (the Nepto snake).

FFIV, Cecil is a boss. You make thousands of damage, have LOTS of HP, and moderate defenses.

FFV. Alchemist. Nothing more to say.

FFVI. All you said + Magic evade bug on the SNES. And we will not even consider the Vanish+Doom that can kill ANYTHING.

FFVII... haven't played it. But a lot of materia is broken. And there is a bug to cast like 12 KotR in a single turn and kill Ruby in like 30secs.

FFVIII. Lion Heart makes like 160k. It depends on randomness, but still... Renzo's damage is still decent. Also Zell's Duel can do some pretty good damage, and Maelstorm+Meteor.
Ah... and so on,

Orochii Zouveleki
 

Touchfuzzy

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I don't know a lot about the story of VIII because Squall is really unlikeable in the beginning and the Junction/Draw system is one of the greatest tragedies of game design in the series. And yes, I do consider it worse than the FFII leveling system.

Maybe VIII was better when you got into it and if you could forgive the mechanics being horrible, but seriously, if you are going to make a character intentionally unlikeable in the beginning so that you can improve them, you can't start so far down at the bottom that players can't care enough to get invested. TWEWY suffered from the same problem. I wanted to punt Neku off the nearest building.
 

Berylstone

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I liked Squall, even in the beginning.  So I didn't mean to imply I didn't like him at the start.  But I generally like brooding anti-social characters.  But I can understand that may not be to everyone's tastes.  And I recognize having a main character who's personality you detest can definitely ruin your enjoyment of a game.  It happened to me on both Final Fantasy 10 and 12.  I absolutely loathed Tidus and Vahn and had a negative impression of both of those games because of it.

Far as the junction/draw system... I have to say I enjoyed it.  It was fun for me to scavenge the world in search of new monsters with rare magic I could draw.  Others hated it.  Who knows why some people like something and others do not. 

I was just trying to emphasize that I feel the criticism of 8 being too easy or abusable are critiques that can be made of the series as a whole, and not 8 in particular.
 

Eschaton

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I was just trying to emphasize that I feel the criticism of 8 being too easy or abusable are critiques that can be made of the series as a whole, and not 8 in particular.
I agree.
 

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