Finding Treasure Chests

[StrawberryFlower]

I was watching my friend play a JRPG last night. Each time he bothered to explore an alternate path, he would be met with a treasure chest filled with... well nothing good. Basically, it wasn't worth the effort.

So... What kind of contents do you think a treasure chest should contain - especially if it's out of the way or guarded by a powerful foe? It doesn't have to be a treasure chest, could be an item in something like a pot or whatever.

 

[Willibab]

Depends on what kind of stuff that is available in your game I suppose

I am using a Materia system so the solution for me is pretty clear ^^

Regardless of what it is, I would say that it should be unique or something you cannot yet get anywhere else at that point in the game.

 

[Tai_MT]

For me, the real question about stuff like this is often:

"Why is there so many dead ends in your dungeon? What purpose does that serve?".

Now, here me out:

Your dungeon should not contain "side paths" and "dead ends" just for the sake of dumping loot into the hands of your players.

This is part of the "designing stuff backwards" that I often rail against (like designing a quest to get a particular piece of loot into someone's hands... rather than designing the quest first and then deciding what would be worth th effort involved in quest completion). Why does the Dead End exist in the dungeon? If the only reason is "to reward exploration with loot", then it's wrong.

Here's the deal:

I really do love exploring in RPG's. I want to take every path in a dungeon to see what's over there. Are there new and interesting monsters to fight? Something cool to look at? Some lore in the room? Environmental storytelling? A hidden boss with some treasures it's guarding?

I am, generally, not "exploring for loot". The reason being, I've been alive too long and have been disenchanted by the "loot" in most games. Yes, thank you for the Sword of Uselessness that I'll use for this dungeon and then discard by the next town because it has better gear. I totes appreciate it. It was worth it to backtrack and hit all your encounters again.

It's one of the reasons I have introduced "collectible" loot in my game. Because it is always valuable, to every single player, in every single circumstance. It never "gets old", in terms of loot. But, I also don't dump a ton of side passages everywhere. Or dozens of alternate routes. Having to trek back through rooms "I have already cleared" is somewhat tedious to me.

So, generally, the thing I tend to hate the most is "Treasure in a dead end". Yes, thank you for putting a chest here at the end of this series of hallways and filling it with stuff that I don't care about. More random consumables I probably won't use since your game is easymode. More random money I can't spend because you have nothing to spend it on aside from new equipment, which is a single bulk purchase every couple hours. More random equipment that may or may not be useful, or will be obsolete by the time the dungeon is complete and I hit the next town.

It's not even usually "rewarding exploration" either. If you put a powerful piece of equipment in a room, then it's "just another piece of loot", but if it was somewhat hidden in the dungeon a little bit, and you had to be observant to find that piece of equipment... well, it feels rewarding now.

See, the "treasure" you put at the ends of hallways and in dead-end rooms doesn't always have to be items. It just has to be something interesting. If you have a random library in this dungeon and what looks like a workshop with some lore that I can pull off the bookshelves... well, that's kind of cool. Sure, it isn't like 20 Potions or a Magic Staff of Obliterating... But, hey, I got to learn some lore of the world, or this side quest, or some random dude's rantings.

The point is, if your "treasure" doesn't have a purpose to the dungeon, then the dead end doesn't have a purpose to the dungeon either. It's a waste of time. You've overdesigned.

The further out of my way I need to go for something, the more valuable that item needs to be to me. I also require compensation for "wasted time". The loot needs to be worth me walking to it and walking back. It needs to always be 100% useful. It needs to always be 100% memorable. If I open your chest and find... 10 Potions... that's not really memorable. Unless your healing items are exceptionally rare and are the only way I can heal... then... WOW!

Basically, I've played too many games where "the loot isn't worth it". Where it just takes up space in my inventory, is never used, or rarely used, and serves no purpose.

All because devs have no idea how to design dungeons, a proper gameplay loop, or even useful treasure. Most devs tend to engage in "Monty Haul" behavior. If you don't know what that is... look it up. It's a D&D Reference to bad DM's. Be aware that you should not be engaging in Monty Haul type behavior when you design your game.

 

[ZombieKidzRule]

While I tend to dislike and avoid statements that are worded as absolutes, @Tai_MT raises some fair and important general points.

I think one of the main takeaways is making sure that your maps are designed with reason and purpose. I have seen games that do this in various ways.

Such as having a cave in instead of a dead end. A cave in implies that there was something beyond that might have made sense, but now it can't be reached. Unless, of course, you designed a way to get through it. Or having a mine instead of a dungeon. Mines can be branching and maze like and convoluted. They can have tunnels that end abruptly. Why? Because whatever they were mining ran out.

Or as Tai_MT referenced. Maybe having something worth visiting at the end of a side path. Like a library, or laboratory, or storage area, or whatever.

If you are going to have a dungeon, the layout should make sense. Now that doesn't mean the player has to be able to determine what every room was for. Especially if the dungeon is old. But having some visual or lore indicators can be fun.

The concept is the same for any location. Buildings should be designed in a way that makes sense. If there is a branching path in a forest, why is it there. What was it for? Maybe it leads to a cave or a remote pond or waterfall or secret grove or burial area or something. Not just a dead end.

Paths generally lead somewhere.

And I am a big advocate that location of treasure should also make sense. Now, I will still play and like a game where it doesn't. Like why is that treasure chest that is just sitting out in the open still stocked with stuff? Why hasn't someone taken it already? I'm looking at you Wizardry 8. I love that game, but why are bandits walking right past the treasure chest sitting by the road?

Why is there even a treasure chest at the end of that path or tunnel or whatever? Who would have put it there and why?

The same goes with the contents. They should make sense. Both for your game and for where it is discovered.

Again, I won't despise a game that doesn't follow simple rules of logic, but if you are asking the question for your game design, then I recommend applying logic and reason to every design aspect of your game.

The earliest games that I played were designed where if there was treasure, it was because it was usable. And you didn't leave anything behind. And a lot of games didn't even have places to buy or sell items. You found whatever you found. There was some value in that. Although I don't generally subscribe that those design choices any more.

I also have to be very careful about this. I plan on having a very complex system for locks and traps for containers and doors. But those have to make sense. Why have a door that has a mechanical and magical lock, a mechanical and magical trap, and then the room beyond is just empty? Or it is protecting a simple storage room? And any treasure is just general crap. That doesn't seem to make sense.

So, making a long response short, design everything in your game with a purpose. That includes maps, treasure, quests, skills, classes, lore, etc.

I hope the responses that you receive are helpful and good luck!

 

[Milennin]

So... What kind of contents do you think a treasure chest should contain - especially if it's out of the way or guarded by a powerful foe? It doesn't have to be a treasure chest, could be an item in something like a pot or whatever.

The minimum that would be useful to the player in some way. In a traditional RPG setting, like finding an Antidote in an area where monsters can inflict poison. As for what's considered useful, that depends entirely on the game itself. Personally, I'd hide consumables and lower tier rewards in objects, while more valuable or unique items go in treasure chests so that opening a treasure chest actually feels like it's giving you something of value and not just one more of a consumable players might be carrying a bunch of already.

"Why is there so many dead ends in your dungeon? What purpose does that serve?".

There could be many, but it is mainly there to reward exploration, as well as providing replay value or allowing 2 different players to have different experiences as they explore different paths and find different things along the way. Dead ends are a means to whittle away at player resources as they're likelier to encounter more battles that might put a strain on their party, meaning exploration carries a risk vs. reward factor. They can serve as a means for the player to feel lost, not knowing where to go and so instill a sense of wonder and adventure. They can be made visible from the main path to tease the player with an out-of-reach treasure chest or unique sprite that will make them want to look for how to get there. They can serve to hide items, extra lore, dialogues, unique vistas, secret encounters etc.

Dead ends are a touchy subject as overdoing them makes them feel like the developer doesn't know what they're doing with their mapping space. If there's an item at the end of literally every dead end, they start to feel formulaic. If they require too much backtracking, it becomes tedious wandering into one. There's a lot of potential downsides to having dead ends, but all it takes is knowing to balance things out. I find a dungeon with dead ends that result in different findings to be interesting, and even better if dead ends provide/unlock shortcuts to get back to the main path quicker.

 

[Tai_MT]

@Milennin

That was sort of my point. Too many devs just have a bajillion dead ends for no purpose, nothing interesting in them, heavily overdone, and tedious to boot. I even saw a tutorial on these forums once about "try to always put a treasure chest at the end of a dead end, so players feel rewarded for exploring!" and I always think back to that and go, "That's really vague and will lead to abhorrent and terrible game design".

Each Dead End needs to serve a purpose and if you ever make them with something that is "lackluster", then you can remove it entirely. You'll lose nothing if you do.

I love to explore, but like 8 Dead Ends every dungeon with loot that won't matter in an hour... or nothing interesting to see... Means I am unfulfilled in terms of exploration... and it means if I ever make a second run of your game, I know which dead ends are "optional content" that "can be skipped due to uselessness". At which point, it loses all the great points you make about why they exist (exploration, whittle down resources, etcetera).

It's why I went with Collectibles. Because if I put Lore at the end of some of those dead ends, then there's no use to reading it again on a second run of the game. You already know there's nothing there. But, if you get a Silver Key which can unlock awesome loot somewhere else in the game... and it's always there... there's always a reason to go get it.

 

[ZombieKidzRule]

To add to my earlier response to the OP. If it is just out of the way for some good reason, I think whatever you find should make sense and be area appropriate. That can include physical area, lore, occupants, party level, etc. appropriate.

If something big and bad is waiting, then it should be something worth it. But again, why is Mr. or Mrs. Big Bad still sitting there?

But I will also say that I might be the anomaly. While I like things to make sense, when I am playing a game, I am generally ambivalent really. I will explore every single tile of every single map if I can, trying to make sure I don't miss anything.

Can that get boring when you don't find anything? Sure. But I also chock that up to my play style. No one is making me check every tile, every wall, every object. That is my choice.

My compulsive, uncontrollable, choice.

 

[Willibab]

I just make what I find fun, and labyrinths are not something I find fun Especially with random battles.

Edit: Not against any idea though, it just depends on how its done, not the thing itself.

 

[Prescott]

I think a good way to make treasure worthwhile is to give unique things, even if they're only a little unique. Or, if they can be created by the player somehow but would require a lot of materials, and finding the item instead will save on materials or gold necessary to create the item.

For instance, in my game you can buy gems and insert them into weapons and armor to make elemental versions. This requires a lot of gold, so finding it in a dungeon instead is nice.

Another way to do it well is to just reward them with gold. If you manage your economy well, finding gold in a chest will be a godsend and make seeking them out a task rather than just another part of the dungeon. You could say that random items can just be sold, but I think there is a difference between finding 5,000 gold in a chest and a few basic items that you can sell for 5,000 gold.

This can't be done for every chest, but it could be good to tie items you find in chests to quests as well. Maybe there is a guy who sells treasure charts who has hidden chests in places and if you find a chest there will be an item inside that you can trade to him for a large sum of gold or another cool item. That makes the chest not feel as randomly placed... it gives them more of a purpose in the world. If you find every chest, maybe you can receive a super reward for finding them all! This can even be done on a smaller level, where there is a chest that is particularly well-hidden but the player can purchase a treasure chart that will help them find it and reward them with something much more than other chests would. It adds a little variety and breaks up the monotony of opening a chest and just finding normal items.

Scarcity in general can go a long way, too. If gold is tight in the economy and players are trying to squeeze everything out of the little gold they get, then finding a chest with basic items can be a godsend. It's like when you move out and suddenly have a lot of stuff to pay for but are gifted toilet paper and paper towels for Christmas. They're just basic items, but being gifted them makes them more worthwhile because you would have been spending hard earned money on them normally.

 

[StrawberryFlower]

One thing I realized, while watching friends or let's players are when they find a weapon/armor in a chest that THEY JUST BOUGHT.

And all the information about the... *reasons* for having random treasure chests are cool here, but remember, I wanted to know what *you* would want to find. XD

 

[ZombieKidzRule]

In fairness, your original post didn’t actually say what would we want to find. Rather it asked what we think should be there as treasure. That wording led me to believe you were asking about game design concepts and not personal preference as a player.

As a player, I want to find something that is useful. Something I can use. So no common stuff that isn’t as good as my current stuff. But that isn’t necessarily realistic and very subjective.

 

[StrawberryFlower]

@ZombieKidzRule That is what I meant, yeah: what you want to find. I should've just been blunt at the end lol.

 

[fizzly]

I think it should be some collectables, something that will stay like...forever, I mean, you can see them in museum, or in your player profile, or something that is only one! Something unique that cannot be found anywhere else. The biggest dissapointment for me is new Zelda, where there is total garbage in the treasures.... So yeah, I also does not like "treasures" like that. It could also be something cool that gives us something further, e.g. you find recipes there that you can then recreate/cook. Or elements that, when collected, give us a unique item, e.g. fragments of a runes or a set of armor.

 

[Tai_MT]

If you just want to know what I like to find in treasure chests, then here's my list:

Collectibles. This can just be stuff you view in a menu, or it could be stuff you collect to trade for other stuff.
Equipment. Bonus points if the equipment I find is unique, or it's useful for the next couple dungeons.
Rare Consumables. I'm not interested in finding "Potion!". But, if it gives me an Elixir (full HP/MP recovery) or something similar, then I tend to like that.
Upgrades. If you have things in your game that can be upgraded, then I like finding those. To reference Zelda... if you put an upgraded Bomb Bag that changes my carry capacity from 10 to 20 in a chest, then I'm pretty happy.
Monsters. Yeah, I'm weird, but I sort of loved and hate the "Monster in a Box!" trope. Or, even fighting a Mimic. You don't see it all that often in games anymore, and it's kind of fun when used sparingly. Especially if the monsters drop one of the Treasures I mentioned above when defeated.
Features. If opening this chest unlocks a feature in your game... like crafting, slotting gems/runes into equipment, or whatever else... I like that too. I think it's kind of fun and cool. Yes, I think it's cool even if you give me a Fishing Rod that unlocks Fishing, which I generally hate to do in almost every game I play.

There ya go, my short list of things I enjoy finding in Treasure Chests.

 

[HumanNinjaToo]

I hate finding things in chests after I have been given the opportunity to buy them, I feel so cheated...

I just want to find useful things. Give me a new weapon or armor prior to the next boss, give me a consumable that hints to the next bosses mechanics, just give me something that will have some immediate value.

 

[Popoto_milk]

Something lore related, like a book would make me the happiest. More so if it's a series. It can be really fun piecing together a mini-story or background lore. Especially if it also has a reward at the end, like a pirate's journal leading to treasure.

It could also be something cool that gives us something further

Also this. Not a collectable in the most straightforward sense, but things which are more than just some new one-and-done item are nice. Recipes, items with set bonuses, Ability upgrades (like in Vanilla WoW where you had to find tomes and books for certain abilities),etc.

The biggest dissapointment for me is new Zelda, where there is total garbage in the treasures....

Agree with the sentiment but I wouldn't say the treasures are littered with complete garbage. Between weapons breaking routinely and the relative rarity of rupees (making things with a reasonable sell value nice to get), I think chests have decentish value in them. Granted, I definitely wouldn't call them very exciting. Though then again I haven't actually completed BotW yet so maybe it changes later on.

 

[Tai_MT]

Agree with the sentiment but I wouldn't say the treasures are littered with complete garbage. Between weapons breaking routinely and the relative rarity of rupees (making things with a reasonable sell value nice to get), I think chests have decentish value in them. Granted, I definitely wouldn't call them very exciting. Though then again I haven't actually completed BotW yet so maybe it changes later on.

And then there's people like me...

"Rupees are rare". Are they? I mean, they COULD'VE been rare, but I guess I didn't notice. I only ever needed them for upgrading a couple sets of armor and unlocking the four fairy fountains and then... that was it. It really didn't take me that long to get enough rupees for either of those either, especially since I figured out how to grind those out without having to sell any. Namely, there's a few places in the world where they spawn in large quantities and a few enemies that spawn large quantities of rupees when killed. Getting enough money to get everyone "remotely necessary" in the game was like... 5 hours of time, tops.

"Weapons routinely break". Did they? I guess they didn't for me once I got off the starting plateau, because that place gave me ample opportunity to explore the mechanic and figure out how to exploit it. Namely... fight nothing if you don't have to fight it. Pro tip... you really don't have to fight anything in the game except stuff that "gates you" from other stuff. You're just wasting durability for no reward at that point. Later on, you can upgrade your Cellphone Powers so that you can render even Lionels easily killed with minimal durability loss. These aren't even long kills either, they're actually FASTER kills. Stasis... whack with weak weapon to stagger (I prefer the ever renewable sticks and other worthless weapons) and then while staggered, land 3 or 4 hits on the Lionel with the strongest weapon in your inventory. Heck, most of the enemies in the game are easily killed with just the upgraded bombs... if you need to kill any of them at all... and you really don't (but, some players feel the need to exterminate every target in the game... weird... ).

I found the treasure in Breath of the Wild to be largely useless and worthless. Would've been more useful if it had contained monster parts or something that you could've used for permanent upgrades to your armor.

Like... treasure was so worthless in BotW, that I largely quit opening chests altogether about 20 hours in. There was just nothing of value. There wasn't even a reason to fight and kill most of the enemies, unless I needed parts or something for armor... and when I completed all the Shrines (because I'm a completionist, so of course I did), the reward for that was armor which rendered the rest of the game "easy mode" and all other armor "worthless and pointless". On top of which, consuming any meal with at least 1 armor heart basically restored you to full health, no matter how low you were... and you could make mounds of insanely cheap meals with basic ingredients that let you live forever.

The only treasures "worth anything" in BoTW to me were the Stamina/Heart upgrades and those were because they permanently gave my character advantages.

Heck, even the "Master Sword" was absolutely worthless. It's only value: "I need to cut down some trees or something, okay, it broke, in 20 minutes it'll be back so I can cut more trees with it if I need to... but I probably won't need to."

Zelda has long had a problem of "treasures are worthless", they were just at their most worthless for me in Breath of the Wild.

 

[Fonixed]

I hate finding things in chests after I have been given the opportunity to buy them, I feel so cheated...

I just want to find useful things. Give me a new weapon or armor prior to the next boss, give me a consumable that hints to the next bosses mechanics, just give me something that will have some immediate value.

This...

But it ultimately depends on the game. Unfortunately, in many cases, the purpose of adding exploration elements is simply to increase the time within the game. However, if your game includes a system that rewards players for exploring, such as crafting and scavenging for items to sell, then it can be worthwhile. Especially if the items are unique. It's important to strike a balance between making it too tedious and giving it away too easily.

Creating areas and dungeons that require a specific skill level to continue exploration can add a non-linear aspect to the area, preventing players from grinding. It's also helpful to provide them with a clear target or goal to achieve.

 

[M.I.A.]

Chests should never contain "useless" items. In fact, I believe chests in dungeons should be filled with the most important things to navigate that dungeon. Lots of enemies use Poison? Load the chests with potions, antidotes, and an accessory that nulls poison. In a long, difficult dungeon? Chests should have ethers, elixirs, and equipment upgrades.

In my current project, it is explained to the player that each dungeon has 10 treasure chests and 1 locked treasure chest (to be unlocked later in the adventure to encourage optional backtracking). It is also explained to the player that each dungeon has 10 exploration markers. When a player obtains all 10 exploration markers they receive a special equipment that modifies.. well.. all kinds of stuff I won't go into !

This does a few things.. tells the player that there's useful or interesting things to explore.. gives those completionists something extra to do.. rewards appropriate items for the extra time put into it.. tells the player that they can leave/stop exploring after they've gotten all the (skippable) goodies if they want.. makes use of dead ends, wrong ways, or encouraging exploration.. and allows me as the dev to put a limit on how large some maps can be and allows me to have fun mapping interesting places.

Chests should always be a reward for exploration. They should never be boring, useless, or drive a player to stop exploring cuz the goodies weren't good enough.

Hope this helps!
-MIA

 

[ZombieKidzRule]

@M.I.A. Out of curiosity, is your game more focused on combat, story, both, or other? I ask because your description makes me wonder, from a story perspective, why every dungeon always has 10 markers, with 10 chests, and 1 chest that requires backtracking? What is the explanation for why this is true?

Not trying to criticize or question your logic and no worries if you don’t want to share that information. I am just genuinely curious.

Now, I will play games with no story if they are fun for me. Which is why I was curious if your explanation to the player is story/immersion/lore friendly for your game or if that isn’t necessarily the focus.

For the OP, this is another point. What is the focus of the game?

If you want realism in treasure that is found, then you need to think about why those things would be there, and still there, from a story/lore perspective.

I definitely have my preferences, but I will play lots of games outside of my preferences if I find them fun.