Future Plug-in's UI should use Touch Designs

[watermark]

I am not sure if this fits in this forum, as this is more of a general suggestion. As we all know MV can now be deployed to mobile devices. I notice that many of the plug-ins (that create new scenes) are still using a PC centered approach. These plug-ins maximize screen real estate, minimize unnecessary on screen buttons and uses keyboard keys to get much of the job done. While this is good for PC games, these plug-ins become unusable when the game is ported to mobile.


I suggest that future plug-ins should be designed to be "universal" in that they can be used on both PCs and mobile devices. This will mean that MV plug-ins should look very different from the Ace ones.


Some suggested specs:


1. You must be able to use all functions of the plug-in with on screen buttons. There is no keyboard.


2. The on screen buttons should be touch friendly. They can't be too small. Perhaps some can use icons.


3. Have a "Back" or "Exit" Button that replaces the sometimes awkward two finger touch mechanic.


4. Maybe, but this can get complicated, have a "PC Mode" and "Touch Mode" option that allows devs to alter the UI to fit the need. If your plug-in is part of a suite of plug-ins, this option should be included in your "Core" plug-in. This way devs can just check this one option to instantly alter all UI to be either for PC or Touch.


Anyone have more suggestions?

 

[Hudell]

Nah, the plugin developer chooses what they want to support and what they don't. There are no "musts" when people are sharing their work for free.

 

[Shaz]

Yeah, this is a discussion topic, not a plugin request.  Moving to General Discussion.

 

[Kenen]

Anyone have more suggestions?

The premise of your post expands beyond just plugin development and suggests that every MV game should be optimized for a mobile UX regardless of what the game maker wants... Or, in this case, the JavaScript developer who's donating his or her time (and skill) for free.


I spend 40 hours a week in Adobe InDesign; I strictly use it for print design. The app offers lots of iPad/tablet/web functionality, but it'd be a waste of my time, because that's not my intent nor does it fall within the scope of my projects.

 

[watermark]

@Kenen @Hudell Yes, I do believe universal plug-ins would be more useful to MV users. An MV feature which is heavily marketed is its ability to deploy games to mobile. It would be frustrating to game devs to search for plug-ins only to find half or more of them offer a bad user experience on mobile. I also don't think it would use up that much more of scripter's time really. It's simply a shift in design thinking. As I did mention in point 4, the truly exceptional scripter will consider separate optimizations for both the PC and mobile user base. 


Well, I am not demanding anything, but simply stating my needs as a user. Listening to user needs is an important part of being a dev. Obviously I don't represent everyone, but I believe I represent a good portion. Still, I think whether the developer is doing it for free is irrelevant to the discussion. Doing things for free is not an excuse for making poor quality products. 

 

[Hudell]

If you ask any developer to support mobile on their plugin and they say no, they will probably give you a reason.


Many people write plugins for their own game and decide to share them with the community. It's not poor quality not supporting mobile, they just don't care about it.


There are also those who are beginners and don't even know how to properly deal with mobile.


And yes, adding a button on screen needs 20 times more code than checking if a keyboard button was pressed. Not to mention the hassle of testing it on mobile.

 

[bgillisp]

I agree with hudell here. I've done some lite scripting for Ace, and what I share is what I made for my game. If you find it useful, great. If not, so what?
It's free. You get what you pay for.

 

[Niten Ichi Ryu]

And an ability that is heavily marketed is the Javascript support that allows you to create the plugin YOU need...so If you need something specific for your needs, code them, or commission them or  post a plugin request with the specifics.


Listening to a user need is indeed important, not only for a dev, but for anyone that produce something for  a customer or as a special request. when someone produce a plugin for his fancy, to practice coding or anything, he only has to listen to himself.


I understand where you are going with this, but I for example care absolutely not about mobile, so I don't expect a Dev to cater specifically for MY need and exclude any mobile friendly feature on a plugin I would use (because let's be honest, Making it mobile friendly will take more time and I need this plugin now, so Why would I care about the mobile devs)


Yanfly's script are free, and I'm not sure they cater fully for mobile. would you call them bad quality, or lazy (90+ since release)?


I'm sure your aim was simply to ask that Mobile friendliness was to become a standard, but you end up sounding as rather ungrateful (and downright arrogant when talking about truly exceptionnal scripters) to the scripters community and calling them shody and lazy for not considering that any plugin should take your suggestion in consideration.


If you have a plugin YOU really need, for YOUR game on mobile, well maybe get in touch with the original scripter to see if he would consider modding his script, or give permission for someone to mod it  as mobile friendly.

 

[watermark]

I truly don't understand why this is turning into a discussion of whether a dev should/shouldn't offer a feature. I think we are going off topic.


Honestly. I'm perfectly aware that unless I am paying for scripting, devs can and will do what they want. As a user, I will pick the scripts that I find useful and ignore the ones that are poor quality. On the other side, devs can choose to listen to or ignore user feedback. It's a free market. So I really don't see why the focus here is on whether I am making people include a feature when it's obvious I (or anyone for that matter) can't make any dev do anything.


@Niten Ichi Ryu Oh goodness. What is up with all this negativity? Nowhere did I say anyone's scripts are shoddy or lazy. Please do not put words into my mouth. I did not say any of the things you mentioned. Where did I bash on Yanfly? I love Yanfly! And I am grateful for all the scripters out there. I thank them all the time. Why are you attacking me? And how am I being arrogant for mentioning "truly exceptional" devs? I am a dev myself. I know perfectly well how hard and time consuming it is to code something exceptional. I welcome criticism. I think as devs we should always strive to be better. Just because something is hard it doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.


"I am sure your aim was simply to ask that Mobile friendliness was to become a standard.." Yes. You got this right. This was my aim. I don't understand why I can't point out something I think very important to everyone down the road. Why do you think I am writing this for purely selfish reasons? To get freebies? I can write or pay for my own commissions thank you very much. For the love of... I am truly insulted!


OK Niten. You got me upset, but let me calm down. Unlike face to face, text does have the unfortunate effect of warping meanings. Let me give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not mean things harshly. I must also clarify it is not my intention to demean any devs nor make any demands. If I came out that way and made anyone uncomfortable, I apologize.


Finally, to everyone who's replied so far. If you disagree with me and think that plug-ins should not be designed for the mobile market. That's fine. That is your opinion, and I welcome the discussion. That's what this thread is for. I am perfectly fine with you saying "Mobile is not the future. I don't think we should design that way." But I should be free to express my opinion too without being FALSELY ACCUSED of bashing on devs, calling them lazy or being called arrogant and selfish. This is just too much.


Another thing is I am honestly surprised at the amount of people (so far) that is against mobile design. I am still all for designing not just scripts, but also our games to be more mobile friendly. MV was a revolution. I think we as game devs should revolutionize our thinking too. We should start thinking how games in MV should be different, and not just pure ports from older versions of RPG Maker.

 

[Niten Ichi Ryu]

@watermarkindeed I was not trying to insult, simply to point out that some of the choices of words you used (as in "truly exceptional scripters" , "poor quality products", "simply shift in design thinking"  ) could come off as not the wisest, and were undermining your points.


As said, I understand you, I even agree that probably in the long term, more mobile friendly scripts will pop up. Well it might even becomes the norm, but time will come in due time, and devs will pick it up at their own pace.


You are free of course to express your opinion, but it really came odd, and as I said, I also gave you the benefit of the doubt and think it wasn't your intention. Your first post in this thread was actually totally sound, but the second one is where things went a bit haywire. glad to read it was mostly a misunderstanding.


Also I don't think people are really against mobile design, might just be that they aren't into it right now,. after all it needs to sink in first in the RM community. Mobile Dev is still a new thing around here.

 

[kaukusaki]

Making the transition from PC to mobile has been difficult but doable. That's why you test the ish out of your programs. It would be nice if scripters added that option but no one has to therefore it's up to you to do it! 


I have been developing for mobile for awhile and I have to remember the 3 click/menu rule and memory limits. Like working on a old school console lolz. 


Mobile gaming is huge right now but has no standards (as the platforms are vastly different such as iOS, Android and BlackBerry). It's up to the developer being mindful of how they're going to make their UI and to make sure it works. It's not up to the plugin maker. That's the developer's problem. Like a particular plugin? Don't like how it renders? Rewrite the sucker. I consider them all templates anyway lolz 

 

[Tsukihime]

Honestly. I'm perfectly aware that unless I am paying for scripting, devs can and will do what they want. As a user, I will pick the scripts that I find useful and ignore the ones that are poor quality. On the other side, devs can choose to listen to or ignore user feedback. It's a free market. So I really don't see why the focus here is on whether I am making people include a feature when it's obvious I (or anyone for that matter) can't make any dev do anything.

Well, obviously someone that's going out of their way to tell devs how they should be acting is going to get poor reception from other devs.

Well, I am not demanding anything, but simply stating my needs as a user. Listening to user needs is an important part of being a dev. Obviously I don't represent everyone, but I believe I represent a good portion. Still, I think whether the developer is doing it for free is irrelevant to the discussion. Doing things for free is not an excuse for making poor quality products. 

You are not "demanding" anything, but of course, a proper dev should listen to their users and not use "hobby" as an excuse for shoddy products that they're currently putting out. They should be adding mobile designs into their work; it wouldn't even take much time or effort!


But it's a free market. I can choose to listen to you, or ignore you.


In any case, while mobile designs or responsive designs are preferred (eg: stop assuming my resolution is 816x624, but that's VX days. Shouldn't happen anymore), that likely will not become a standard given that there aren't even that many people making UI's in general. More than 75% of the projects I look at use Yanfly's menus. The rest are privately commissioned and not available publicly.


Until there are more menus to choose from, you're pretty much stuck with whatever is available since there's no real competition that will pressure someone to want to make their menus more marketable.

 

[Wavelength]

I do think watermark makes some good suggestions; however there seem to be a lot of problems currently preventing MV from being a serious mobile-game Maker and as several people have mentioned making the touchscreen controls is a more involved process than making most other control schemes.  So it makes sense that a lot of plugin developers have left out mobile-friendly UIs.

 

[Tsukihime]

I do think watermark makes some good suggestions; however there seem to be a lot of problems currently preventing MV from being a serious mobile-game Maker and as several people have mentioned making the touchscreen controls is a more involved process than making most other control schemes.  So it makes sense that a lot of plugin developers have left out mobile-friendly UIs.

While MV does come with native touch support, it's terrible and pretty much an after thought.


The default UI's were designed for keyboards/gamepads, not mice or touch screens.


In UI development outside of MV, you don't really have to think too much about how to program your display elements to handle gestures.


For example, click a button? Just define how big the button is, and it works. Just attach different handlers depending on how you want to interact with it.


In MV, there's zero support. You have to code everything from ground-up, even detecting whether a button is being pressed.


For whatever reason, MV decided to drop support for pixi's gesture support, citing "memory leaks", which only makes it even more terrible.


I don't want to have to figure out how to detect mouse clicks. That should be something the engine handles for me.


But MV doesn't natively support colliision detection either, or pixel movement, so it's not too surprising.

 

[watermark]

@Niten Ichi Ryu I am glad that was just a misunderstanding. No hard feelings.   


@Tsukihime Wow I didn't know MV mobile support is that lacking. This is interesting.


I think we should continue the discussion after we have some hard data. Therefore I made a poll. We should hear what the community thinks. I am curious too whether this issue is important to the community at present. Or perhaps this is something for next or the year after. Please go vote!

 

[kaukusaki]

Yeah I noticed the mobile support was meh after testing and sent it off to the mobidev dept to hack at it since I couldn't (mobile is new for me wheras those clowns been atop mobile since palm pilot). I'm having to roll my own for the time being. We're still trying to get the kinks out...

 

[watermark]

Yeah I noticed the mobile support was meh after testing and sent it off to the mobidev dept to hack at it since I couldn't (mobile is new for me wheras those clowns been atop mobile since palm pilot). I'm having to roll my own for the time being. We're still trying to get the kinks out...

The challenges of taking it to mobile.   It is harder than expected. I am guessing the Kadokawa people are new at this too, which may be why the under-the-hood support is lacking. Still, in general I am thankful they made the mobile feature. Before we didn't even have it. At least we can complain about it now.