Gaining EXP

[StarkinGyra]

I have been tinking with an idea of how best to give EXP to characters. Besides the normal way after combat, I have thought about making areas the player will venture through. At the end they get EXP based on that area.

I think it would mean breaking up a lot of areas into smaller parts. I want to make it so the player is not having to grind to face harder enemies.

Seeing if anyone has had worked on something like this before and what results they have had. I only just started to play with the idea.

 

[whitesphere]

A very old PC game did this.  It was a first person dungeon crawler, but one of the classes was basically an Explorer class, which gained EXP from exploring the terrain.  It's definitely an interesting concept.

I think, if you wanted a less grindy way to gain EXP, you can have map sections award EXP when entered for the first time.   If you have a larger map, you can designate certain choke points which have invisible events that award EXP when they're touched (for the first time).  Such as narrow mountain passes, etc.

Also, if your RPG is story centric, you can have quests being completed awarding significant EXP.  Tabletop role playing normally does this --- with players gaining EXP for non-combat tasks.

If you do this, I would tie the amount of EXP awarded to how central the quest is to the main storyline and, most importantly, how difficult the quest is to complete.  So maybe the "Fetch my lost puppy" grants 50 EXP, but the "Fetch the crown from the Dragon's Den" grants 1000 EXP, since it requires a dungeon crawl and possibly combat.

You can also reduce the amount of EXP gained from combat to subtly discourage players from grinding if you prefer a more story-centric focus.

Also, if you use JP (Yanfly scripts) to unlock classes or award Skills, be sure to award JP the same way you do EXP --- exploring and story quest completion.

 

[bgillisp]

I have one quest in my game that you can complete without a fight, if you are clever. The way I handled the EXP award for that was I figured out how much EXP the average player would get in the normal route, then increased it some for finding the creative solution. That is one way you can handle the non-combat rewards, but be sure the non-combat rewards are at least as good as the combat rewards, else the player is going to never bother solving things that way.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

You could have certain events (like unlocking a path, finding something etc) give some exp.

 

[Omnimental]

I'm a big fan of non-combat EXP, personally.  Experience for exploration, completing side quests, progressing the story...

It encourages exploration while simultaniously reducing the draw of grinding.  It also helps for larger games when the player isn't sure if they've visited an area before.  If they gain experience when they first enter the room, then they know for sure that they are in a new area and that there (should be) things for them to do there.

 

[Ms Littlefish]

I haven't done it in a game myself but I have played a number of games where I highly enjoyed it. I used to play a lot of Guild Wars 2, and MMOs can be notoriously grind-y. I absolutely loved how you didn't always have to be battling to get EXP in that game, in fact it was a rather ineffective way to level. That game made exploring, doing things, and making things the easiest way to be rewarded in the game. The enemies still gave some EXP but mostly served as an obstacle between point A and point B. 

 

[Tarsus]

I've played a lot of tabletop RPGs and typically in those you gained experience from quests or even simply from each play session. You never got exp from combat as it encouraged players to make combat centric characters rather than balanced ones.

 

[Kes]

As well as exp for completing quests, I have exp for exploration in my current project.  However, it is set up not as invisible events at e.g. choke points, but as visible, tiny cornucopia jars tucked away in various corners of maps, inside secret rooms, on side maps  and so on, so that the player is alerted from the get go that exploring around will yield these little rewards.  Doing it this way also means that I can control very precisely how much extra exp to give, either by the number of jars or by the amount of exp that each jar gives.  With these plus the usual chests etc. I try and make exploring always worth while.

 

[Harmill]

I guess I'm a bit different in my tastes here as I absolutely HATE games whose main experience source is quest completion (MMOs, Western RPGs). It's actually a large reason why I don't like Western RPGs in general. I prefer earning my experience from fighting monsters. If you're trying to reduce the amount of grinding, increase/balance your experience rewards from fights. But that's just my take on it.

 

[bgillisp]

I guess I'm a bit different in my tastes here as I absolutely HATE games whose main experience source is quest completion (MMOs, Western RPGs). It's actually a large reason why I don't like Western RPGs in general. I prefer earning my experience from fighting monsters. If you're trying to reduce the amount of grinding, increase/balance your experience rewards from fights. But that's just my take on it.

I think the main reason the debate even came up is this: Why should a thief become better at thieving from killing monsters? You didn't practice your sneaking, or how to pick locks, but those are what is going to improve. Or, why should a diplomat become more powerful when they attacked a monster?

Realistically, if you have a class that is non-combat orientated, you need rewards for actually using those classes the way they are intended. Else, they become useless, and everyone leans to fighter characters and goes and slaughters monsters.

 

[Tarsus]

In my opinion the best exp system in a game is that used in the latest elder scrolls games, where you gain exp from using skills.  That way combat classes level in combat, thieves level by thieving and mages level by casting spells.  You got no exp at all from either killing enemies or completing quests.

Its a bit of a chore to implement into your games but its a much nicer system that doesnt make you feel the need to either grind or change your playstyle based on whats the most effective way to increase your power.

The system that is best for you should be based on the type of game you are making and what you want to encourage or discourage your players from doing.

 

[Eschaton]

Your protagonist/player character should gain experience from experiencing the world.  Interacting with NPCs and learning something new should grant EXP (event).  Killing an enemy should grant EXP (combat).  Completing a task and improving your skills or lay of the land should grant EXP (quests).

EXP should not be farmed.  There are only so many things that a single person can experience.  You also don't want a player to mess up your game world balance and experience point economy (Which is so easy to do in old-school JRPGs that it has become an expected gameplay element.  We call this "grinding.")

Another pitfall with non-combat EXP is that if - for example - a player can sneak past a group of on-the-map enemy events and gain the EXP, what if the developer overlooked the idea that the player could gain that EXP and go back and kill the enemies for more EXP?  If I were that developer, I'd make sure the player only gets one or the other.  I'd probably event something that if you make it to the next room, you get the EXP, but the enemies leave or something.  Just as an example.

Also, @Harmill, gaining EXP from quests is probably the best way for a developer to maintain game balance by ensuring a finite EXP economy and subverting the challenge of the game.  If you don't like games like that, don't play them.

 

[bgillisp]

In my opinion the best exp system in a game is that used in the latest elder scrolls games, where you gain exp from using skills.  That way combat classes level in combat, thieves level by thieving and mages level by casting spells. \

Except, that system has a bad flaw in it that can be exploited. You can just find a quiet corner, spam your weakest spell over and over and over and over, rest to regain MP, repeat and suddenly you are the strongest person in the world. I know I did something kind of like that to improve my stealth to ridiculous levels in that game.

Though, if you don't mind people being able to do that, go for it. After all, you could argue that what they were doing was just practice, like real world people would do too.

 

[Tarsus]

You could do that, but spamming the spell didnt make you any better with swords, only with that spell.

Every exp system has a way of exploiting it unless you are prepared to completely restrict the player.

 

[amerk]

This is sort of why I've always favored Final Fantasy II (NES) way of leveling. It's very flawed, and because of that I think people have never given it much thought, mainly because you had no real way of knowing how much experience you get for taking a single action, or how much experience you need to level up a specific stat.

If the flaws could be mended in such a way that players are aware that (for example) they would need to defend 5 times to boost their defense by 1 level and would need to attack 10 times to boost their strength by 1 level and take X amount of damage to boost their HP by 1 level... and so forth... I think FFII's manor of leveling would have been much more received.

But maybe drop experience all together, after all it's the stats people are mainly interested in.

If a thief manages to bypass X amount of traps while opening X amount of chests, I'd imagine their INT would go up more so than gaining enough experience from opening chests that they potentially gain a level to improve all their stats. Or if the player takes on a timed mini game of sorts, maybe their whole party gains a boost in agility as a result. Using enough magic in and out of battle might boost the character's MP and maybe their SPI as well.

 

[StarkinGyra]

I want to thank you all for the feedback. I have a lot to think about as I work out the details of it all.

 

[omen613]

This is sort of why I've always favored Final Fantasy II (NES) way of leveling. It's very flawed, and because of that I think people have never given it much thought, mainly because you had no real way of knowing how much experience you get for taking a single action, or how much experience you need to level up a specific stat.

If the flaws could be mended in such a way that players are aware that (for example) they would need to defend 5 times to boost their defense by 1 level and would need to attack 10 times to boost their strength by 1 level and take X amount of damage to boost their HP by 1 level... and so forth... I think FFII's manor of leveling would have been much more received.

But maybe drop experience all together, after all it's the stats people are mainly interested in.

If a thief manages to bypass X amount of traps while opening X amount of chests, I'd imagine their INT would go up more so than gaining enough experience from opening chests that they potentially gain a level to improve all their stats. Or if the player takes on a timed mini game of sorts, maybe their whole party gains a boost in agility as a result. Using enough magic in and out of battle might boost the character's MP and maybe their SPI as well.

I really like this way of thinking.

What if level ups, gained from experience points received in battles, only increased battle related stats like STR  MAT (HP too maybe?) and all other stats are increased through interacting with the world map in some way for characters. (or remove levels completely and just raise those states with events after battles)

Picking a lock can raise INT for the thief character, sneaking past foes raises AGI (be kinda cool if they kinda became a 2nd controllable party when they were sneaking since they can't sneak the whole party unnoticed)

Training with a knight could raise the warrior's DEF or learn a new shield skill

Performing an exorcism on a villager could raise the priest's MND stat 

Finding a scroll could teach the wizard a new spell or raise MP

Would most likely have to be controlled number of battles so no grinding would be allowed for balancing reasons but could be bun.

 

[whitesphere]

Rune Factory 3 heavily leaned towards Skill boosting as ways to progress.  You would gain levels which boosted HP to a degree.  But, that was only a small base.  The REAL HP boosts/attack strength boosts/etc came when you did tasks that increased those skills.  For example you HAD to take damage to raise your Endurance which raised HP, and you had to be poisoned to raise Poison Resistance.

And the more you used a weapon, the higher your skill with it.  This became even more crucial than just "More damage" because your character had a finite amount of "RP" to perform actions/attacks/spells with, and your RP consumption with a given weapon type would decrease as your skill raised.

Even sleeping and walking increased some skills.  So basically, the game heavily rewarded players who went out and used every feature of the game --- farming, chopping down trees, various types of fighting --- because not only did each skill boost itself, they ALL contributed to one or more other key stats like HP, STR or whatnot.

You could grind, if you wanted, but the finite RP pool, plus the day/night/seasons mechanic really limited how much you could grind at any given time.  Especially if you had a farm you wanted to harvest and farm monsters to feed/harvest.

It worked very well for that type of game, so it might work well in other RPGs.

 

[Mihel]

A flat amount of experience could be gained after every battle for the whole party, but each member could gain additional experience based on battle performance: dealing critical hits, successfully parrying/evading incoming attacks, dealing critical healing, dealing the killing blow on an enemy, successfully stealing an item, having the first turn in battle or a pre-emptive strike, OHKOing one enemy, overkilling an enemy, surviving a battle without HP/MP loss, covering an ally.

 

[amerk]

It's easily doable with evented battle encounters over random. Remove exp from enemies, and at the end of the battle, use a sort of variable to track battle related stats, and all other stats can be done through other means of game play.

A bit excessive to handle, but it could also be fun to design and play.