Game Making in RPG Maker - All Work & No Play?

[The Forgotten]

So, I pose an interesting question/conundrum!

RPG Maker is, of course, a software Engine to assist with the creation of various types of games (specifically RPG's, but pretty much anything can be made with the use of scripts) and they (Enterbrain) pride themselves on the fact you can have fun doing it due to the simplistic nature of the Engine in general. It's practically point, click, create for full RTP projects.

But for those of us who are at least just a little serious about game making, at what point does it become a payless, thankless job?

I've been squatting on a book I wrote a few years ago, got pretty good reviews from the quasi-general public, and many people stated that it would make a good old school JRPG. I decided to scrap the half dozen unfinished projects I had started since my first RPG Maker program and start working on this one.

So far, I have 10 minutes (or so) of gameplay. Good, solid gameplay with excellent non-parallax mapping (maps still look fresh due to utilizing GIMP and the fact I can have 3 full tile templates filled with tiles of a variety of sizes).

Why?

Every time I decide to move forward with the game, I get caught up crafting resources for it. I've spent probably 40 hours or more in GIMP tailoring the sets to what I need and they still aren't perfect. It's difficult to take a non-VXA Styled set and make it look like it is VXA Styled (though I'm getting better at it abusing contrast, brightness, colorize tool, copy & paste, ect)

It is so bad I didn't even meet my first demo deadline (which is silly, but I game myself deadlines to actually prevent dilly-dallying)

My original intent was very minor edits, get a demo, test the water to see the game is something people would play, and then enlist help creating the customized graphic sets.

So how do you folks handle this issue? 

 

[Sharm]

Well, if the point is to get a demo and then find an artist, I wouldn't edit any graphics, just make due as best I could and make it very obvious to the people downloading the demo that the graphics will be better after I get more people on the project. You're putting a lot of time and effort into something that will probably end up getting replaced, that's no good. Since you're using the demo for recruitment purposes it doesn't have to be all that great looking. I would suggest making a different demo after you get your team together if you want to use it as a way to measure interest and to hype your game.

 

[Lunarea]

Game development is always going to be more work than play. It helps if you enjoy the work and find meaning and value in the development process.

That said, it does help a lot to learn what to prioritize. Work on what's important first, and keep track of all progress. Seeing that you've made any kind of progress can be very motivating.

 

[Ashton]

Well, if the point is to get a demo and then find an artist, I wouldn't edit any graphics, just make due as best I could and make it very obvious to the people downloading the demo that the graphics will be better after I get more people on the project. You're putting a lot of time and effort into something that will probably end up getting replaced, that's no good. Since you're using the demo for recruitment purposes it doesn't have to be all that great looking. I would suggest making a different demo after you get your team together if you want to use it as a way to measure interest and to hype your game.

This. If you need simple but more-than-very-minor-edits, there are a LOT of sprite-sheets, tiles, etc in the resources area of this forum, and even more by searching google for "X Sprite Sheet" (where "X" is the type, like "Dog Sprite Sheet" or "Knight Sprite Sheet")

If your going to try to do more than this yourself, your going to spend DAYS doing editing. I've literally been working anywhere form 2-10 hours a day for the last two weeks or so on my game, and so far I have the opening cutscene, a few maps, two quests, and 1 battle. If I'd used nothing but the built-in graphics, I could have done this much in a single day, instead I'm spending probably 90% of my time doing image/sprite/tile editing, searching for images, and finding, installing, testing (and often repeating the "find, install, test" pattern) for scripts. 

You'll have to either scale-back the originality of your project, or expect to spend a lot more time on it.

Game development is always going to be more work than play. It helps if you enjoy the work and find meaning and value in the development process. .

This. I enjoy it and I want to see others enjoy my vision. Personally I think this is one of the two most important features of a game designer (or really any kind of artist) if you can't enjoy yourself and your goal isn't to see others enjoying it, then your going to hate the work and your going to crap out another turd of shovel ware that everyone will hate (see the "Why is RPG Maker so hated?" thread)

 

[Arin]

I never even think about having fun with a project I'm developing. As a developer, you're not allowed to have an opinion on your game; that falls to the audience you're releasing your game to. If it's bad, which my projects usually are, then I try my best to make it work, and if it's good, I try to make it even better than before. When do I find the time to just kick back and say "this is fun"?

 

[The Forgotten]

Yeah. I mean, the edited RTP graphics I've been working on are not likely to be changed much now. Possibly tweak some colors or the brightness/contrast, but they're pretty set. I'm not going to be able to afford tiles that are 100% specific to my project. But, that said, there are some edits I just am not that great at. There is a huge quality difference between my RUINS SET and my BLOODSTAINED set. I'm just no good at depicting 32-bit bloodstains. Haha. 

I love the work, I went to college for Graphic & Interactive Design, so it's making use of an otherwise useless degree. But, it is a little sad to see very little progress made on the actual game itself. I wasn't even sure if I wanted a standard RPG or an Action RPG since the book only really follows the main character (other characters could have been events, completely unnecessary as player characters). I settled on a standard RPG since I have had the most experience with it (and unboxing Final Fantasy 1 in the 90's was the spiraling descent into RPG madness for me).

It's just hard to balance work and play. I've play tested the one real battle almost 50 times, making minor edits here and there to the dialog, moving sprites around a little, and am completely unsatisfied with how it's turning out even though my wife (who hates video games, mind you) said it was almost like playing a scene from a movie.

I don't know, I'm just ready to pull out my hair at this point. I have already stopped script edits to tinker with the main character's battler sprite... again...

 

[C-C-C-Cashmere (old)]

If you're not having fun playing your game, then maybe it's not a good game.

If you're not having fun developing your game, that's just normal.

 

[The Forgotten]

If you're not having fun playing your game, then maybe it's not a good game.

If you're not having fun developing your game, that's just normal.

I love playing it, but as a developer, I'm finding flaws that to the player, don't exist! The average player isn't going to notice that the baddie-sprite's axe is cut short by 1 pixel or there is a black spot in his dark blue beard. Lol.

 

[Ashton]

It's just hard to balance work and play. I've play tested the one real battle almost 50 times, making minor edits here and there to the dialog, moving sprites around a little, and am completely unsatisfied with how it's turning out even though my wife (who hates video games, mind you) said it was almost like playing a scene from a movie.

I don't know, I'm just ready to pull out my hair at this point. I have already stopped script edits to tinker with the main character's battler sprite... again...

I love playing it, but as a developer, I'm finding flaws that to the player, don't exist! The average player isn't going to notice that the baddie-sprite's axe is cut short by 1 pixel or there is a black spot in his dark blue beard. Lol.

You are you own worst critic. ("you" being plural, meaning we all are our own worst critics) get others to play test the game, make a video and show it to people, etc, and get feedback. That's what I'm doing. After I feel "satisfied" (I'll never be "happy" with the game) I've got close to a half-dozen play testers to go over multiple times and send me feedback, I then recode it and they play test it again. You can't do it all 100% by yourself or you'll drive yourself insane by, as you said, 1-pixel-off errors that nobody else in the world will notice.

 

[The Forgotten]

You are you own worst critic. ("you" being plural, meaning we all are our own worst critics) get others to play test the game, make a video and show it to people, etc, and get feedback. That's what I'm doing. After I feel "satisfied" (I'll never be "happy" with the game) I've got close to a half-dozen play testers to go over multiple times and send me feedback, I then recode it and they play test it again. You can't do it all 100% by yourself or you'll drive yourself insane by, as you said, 1-pixel-off errors that nobody else in the world will notice.

Yeah. It was the same way with the book, it took about a dozen rewrites before I was "satisfied" with the story. Example being that the Acreites (the primary magic using race of humans) would grow old and die at a 1000x accelerated pace when disconnected from the "source" of magic in their world. But, they also seeded many worlds that didn't have magic or a "magic source" making the fact they require this "source" to survive irrelevant. I racked my brain for a week to come up with the solution to a small snippet of the prologue that created a very minor continuity error.

 

[Ashton]

Yeah. It was the same way with the book, it took about a dozen rewrites before I was "satisfied" with the story. Example being that the Acreites (the primary magic using race of humans) would grow old and die at a 1000x accelerated pace when disconnected from the "source" of magic in their world. But, they also seeded many worlds that didn't have magic or a "magic source" making the fact they require this "source" to survive irrelevant. I racked my brain for a week to come up with the solution to a small snippet of the prologue that created a very minor continuity error.

Yes, take it from a Jack of all trades (master of none) it doesn't matter the medium, I've done everything from 3D design, to writing, to body painting, to FLASH animation, and I feel like throwing up my paws and saying "This is absolute ****!" but others will see it and will marvel and tell me how amazing it is! (plenty more will look and not comment, no doubt "if you can't say something nice...") When you think a scene is "ok" (first make sure it works on a technical level, make sure the dialogue flows without sudden jumps (unless that's how the character thinks), and the tone works) then pass it on to others to look over. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the feedback

 

[Vinedrius]

To be honest, your posts scream "I can't focus on one thing to actually make any real progress". Like Lunarea said, progress is a very strong, if not the best, source of motivation. You said you wrote a book so you must be good enough to focus and make progress at a good rate on story telling and the script. On top of that, you have graphic design degree which should give you an edge for setting up graphical assets; arrangements, edits, finding the right graphic for the right place etc.

For example, I feel comfortable enough to start with mapping because that is the only part of the development process I believe that I can make progress at a reasonable rate.

Edit: To be honest though, no matter what, you will and have to spend too much time on anything related to development (even more so as you appear to be solo) and if you think you are wasting time, either give up before you burn out yourself or become an FF samurai and start tossing gil (if you know what I mean)

 

[The Forgotten]

To be honest, your posts scream "I can't focus on one thing to actually make any real progress". Like Lunarea said, progress is a very strong, if not the best, source of motivation. You said you wrote a book so you must be good enough to focus and make progress at a good rate on story telling and the script. On top of that, you have graphic design degree which should give you an edge for setting up graphical assets; arrangements, edits, finding the right graphic for the right place etc.

For example, I feel comfortable enough to start with mapping because that is the only part of the development process I believe that I can make progress at a reasonable rate.

Edit: To be honest though, no matter what, you will and have to spend so much time on anything related to development and if you think you are wasting time, either give up or become a FF samurai and start tossing gil (if you know what I mean)

I can focus on one thing. I do a lot of focusing on the graphics. I look at the maps while mapping and go: "This isn't right," and open up GIMP and start editing. I even know, and tell myself frequently that graphics are not the focus of a story-based game. I think it might be the ADD and the fact it is really easy to tab through all the various resources I am working on.

I think it's because I know that if I map it out, when I get to editing the graphics, it might bork the map and I have to do it all over again (for the most part).

I don't even want to think about the work that needs to go into doing a customized graphical user interface for the battle screen and menus. I can make pretty pictures all day long, make a dozen nice mock-ups so I have an idea what I want it to look like, but I have no idea how to put it into practice.

So, long story short, it seems like it would benefit me greatly to close GIMP and map/event everything out so I can get a crude demo made and see if I can get some people on board who can do the stuff that I don't have the requisite skill set to do.

I'm pretty sure I'm starting to see the real world in 32-bit pixels at this point. XD

 

[Sharm]

I kept trying to make a game and getting bogged down and distracted by graphics. Took me a while to realize that I didn't want to actually make a game, I just want to make art for games. So I quit trying to make a game just started making graphics for people and I'm a lot happier with my work and I'm making much more progress. I'll probably go back and make a game someday, but it's okay because it wasn't actually a priority to make one and it doesn't have to be. Maybe this is what's happening for you?


That said, you really need to stop focusing on graphics if you want to do this game. Even if you enjoy it, even if it's what you want to do all day if you don't have your game play completely solid and you don't have firm plot outline you're going to start trying to fit your game to your graphics instead of letting it be what it needs to be. Mechanics first, story second, graphics third. If you put the priorities in any other order your game will suffer.

 

[Ashton]

I'd also say that if your getting bogged down, then add something fun and silly to the game. I have multiple easter-eggs I've made while feeling bogged down, (a few simple show-text when a player inspects a certain object, a full-on optional character, and even a secret vehicle --- only the first are even accessible at this point, the rest will be added in later, but I made them and it helped me relax, have some fun, and get back to making the main game. If you want to make graphics, add in a silly graphic somewhere out of the way that players may not notice and if they do, they'll laugh (like a miniature companion cube sitting on a shelf). I've found these short distractions that still add to the game really help during development.

 

[The Forgotten]

I kept trying to make a game and getting bogged down and distracted by graphics. Took me a while to realize that I didn't want to actually make a game, I just want to make art for games. So I quit trying to make a game just started making graphics for people and I'm a lot happier with my work and I'm making much more progress. I'll probably go back and make a game someday, but it's okay because it wasn't actually a priority to make one and it doesn't have to be. Maybe this is what's happening for you?

That said, you really need to stop focusing on graphics if you want to do this game. Even if you enjoy it, even if it's what you want to do all day if you don't have your game play completely solid and you don't have firm plot outline you're going to start trying to fit your game to your graphics instead of letting it be what it needs to be. Mechanics first, story second, graphics third. If you put the priorities in any other order your game will suffer.

Yeah. I think it is just being drawn to graphics because of my background. Thankfully most of the mechanics are solid, still waiting on someone to finish a unique day/night system they said they'd work on pro-bono I feel would make the game a little more dynamic, but otherwise it's all solid. All the scripts work well together, the database is complete (except graphically), the player characters and NPC's all have their custom sprites completed as well.

Maybe I just have an aversion to mapping that I try to put off doing by making things?

GIMP is closed, so let me see if I can make some headway on the maps so I can get a short demo out.

 

[bgillisp]

I've had two instances where I got bogged down on the story in my game, and here is what I did:

Instance 1: The first time, I went back over the game to that point, and added in some totally silly side scenes. Optional, totally wacky, and there for the player to find. It was a fun diversion and after a day or two of that I returned to the main game.

Instance 2: The second time, I went and added a side quest I always intended to add, but put off until the free time came. End result is I now have my first side quest in the game, one which adds about 20 min of play time (give or take).

So in the end, I'd suggest just finding something fun to do when you get bogged down, and come back to it in a day or two. Just make sure to set a dedicated time to return to it, or it is possible to never return.

 

[Indinera]

You need to have a clear idea of what you want to do with your game, set limits, and be organized.

It's not a bad thing to let a few ideas slip in as you get them, but in general, do not bite more than you can chew.

 

[Gui]

My 2 cents, as a fellow graphic artist but also someone who spent far too much time building games, both pro and amateur...

You seem pretty close to some sort of burn out (sorry if it isn't the correct term, english is not my native language...) so, in my opinion, you have two possibilities right now:

1. Leave your project aside some time, preferably months instead of weeks (work onto something else in the meanwhile, game related or not), and go back at it with a fresh look: you'll probably cease to notice what looked like flaws but actually weren't and instead will notice the true issues of your project.

2. Release your demo now, here or elsewhere: you'll see that people don't bite event if some of the opinions posted can hurt beyond all words. But maybe you simply need that, a different look, another opinion from someone who isn't emotionnaly involved with you (contrarily to your wife) and have nothing to lose in telling you their honest opinion.

The cliché of the artist working in his ivory tower, producing masterpieces all day long through hard work and will alone is just that, a cliché: in the end, a piece exists only through its public – maybe it is simply time you ask to this public to speak his mind...

 

[TheRiotInside]

As an aside, a little tip that helps me when trying to motivate myself to make progress:

Find the aspect of game developing that you enjoy the most: whether it's mapping, number-crunching in the database, constructing dialogue, whatever it is. If possible, try to save most of this as a reward and a motivator for yourself.

For example, if I really loved mapping (I do, but hey) I'd try and use that to my advantage. Like, if there was a skill list that I had to flesh out for a character, or a cutscene I had to put together, I wouldn't let myself make the next map until I got one of those pesky things done. I find that if you're lacking motivation, the only thing you can bring yourself to work on is the stuff you enjoy the most, but if you do that, eventually you'll be stuck with nothing fun to do before that one thing you hate gets done, which I think is where a lot of early projects die.