Games you hate, yet everyone else cherishes.

Harmill

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As for what people are comparing this to, they really don't need to. Sometimes Final Fantasy just spells the argument out. But I suppose if you really needed to know, I'd say it was other games that have a higher quality of writing. Tales of Symphonia, for example, is something I'd compare. The story has some inconsistencies I'll admit, but it's very well written and the characters are endearing. Final Fantasy X (again, entirely subjective) is neither of these. It's a poorly written game, and people who agree with me shouldn't have to feel like "they don't get it" just because they think that.
You chose Tales of Symphonia as an example of GOOD writing? I replayed the first hour or so upon buying the HD remake, and within the first few cutscenes, I was cringing and even laughing at how BAD the writing is in that game. That is NOT to say that I don't like ToS. I have fond memories of the game (hence why I've purchased the HD remake...).
 

awesomerhys

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You chose Tales of Symphonia as an example of GOOD writing? I replayed the first hour or so upon buying the HD remake, and within the first few cutscenes, I was cringing and even laughing at how BAD the writing is in that game. That is NOT to say that I don't like ToS. I have fond memories of the game (hence why I've purchased the HD remake...).
I did, because I think it has good writing. Not always, for sure, but enough for me to consider it a decently written game. Also, I hate to be THAT guy, but you said you'd only played the first hour. There are some exceptional moments between the characters dotted throughout the game.
 
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awesomerhys

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So then... you're saying Final Fantasy 7 needs to be thrown to Dire Wolves as well? :D
That depends. VII is nowhere near as bad as X, and I'm honestly coming round to VII from a story perspective. The characters aren't great in VII but I'd rather play that any day.
 

Mouser

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Mary Sue isn't really a term that's "up for debate".  Yuna has basically zero character flaws.  She's Spira's version of the "Perfect Human Being".  She stops to help everyone, she does her job so well that everyone loves her, she's so popular that the villain wants to marry her to ensure his plans go off without a hitch, and she never once balks at anything going on.  Nothing ever inconveniences her or even makes her lash out at others.  Sure, she's a bit "depressed" as it's implied, but it's never really "dealt with" as she says she's pretending she's not sad in order to make everyone else be happy.  The biggest and toughest decision she ever has to make is when she's told she has to sacrifice someone to be "The Final Summon".  The problem with that?  It's TIDUS who makes the decision for her, and she just goes along with it.

She's a huge Mary Sue and it's kind of annoying.
Yes, but is she a stand in for the game designers?

I don't think Yuna's as one-dimensional as you think. Yes, she acts that way - because she HAS to, not because she wants to. Tidus alludes to it on the ship, "It's tough, when your father's famous."  The laughing scene for that matter - having to wear a fake smile all the time. Tidus is the one who finally gets her to open up (adulteress!).

I agree about Seymour. I think he may hold the record for "bad guy back from the dead" in a single video game.

I guess he had some phoenix down tucked away somewhere. Too bad Cloud didn't have any for Aeris...
 

Harmill

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I've played the whole game. I replayed the first hour or two on the HD remake. My point is that Tales of Symphonia is a game that I also held with high regard. These first two hours, if I was playing this game for the first time TODAY at my current age, I would not be happy. The cutscenes have sloppy pacing with awkward pauses, and the dialogue is not good. This is the best example I can give without looking up the game script or watching videos: When you exit the school, and Frank walks up to you and tells you that the Desians are attacking the Temple, someone mentions the Treaty. Lloyd says, "The treaty? You mean the one that bla bla bla bla".  D:<  The way Lloyd says that line of dialogue is SO forced and unnatural it bothered me quite a bit. And because these first two hours don't have good dialogue, I'm bracing myself for what else the game is going to throw my way. Of course, there can be some scenes that could be written well, but you can't ignore the bad dialogue just so you can say there's some well written scenes sprinkled out.
 

awesomerhys

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Yes, but is she a stand in for the game designers?

I don't think Yuna's as one-dimensional as you think. Yes, she acts that way - because she HAS to, not because she wants to. Tidus alludes to it on the ship, "It's tough, when your father's famous."  The laughing scene for that matter - having to wear a fake smile all the time. Tidus is the one who finally gets her to open up (adulteress!).

I agree about Seymour. I think he may hold the record for "bad guy back from the dead" in a single video game.

I guess he had some phoenix down tucked away somewhere. Too bad Cloud didn't have any for Aeris...
Haha, the old "cutscene deaths are permanent" trope. Wish it wasn't in Phantasy Star IV  ;_;
 

awesomerhys

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I've played the whole game. I replayed the first hour or two on the HD remake. My point is that Tales of Symphonia is a game that I also held with high regard. These first two hours, if I was playing this game for the first time TODAY at my current age, I would not be happy. The cutscenes have sloppy pacing with awkward pauses, and the dialogue is not good. This is the best example I can give without looking up the game script or watching videos: When you exit the school, and Frank walks up to you and tells you that the Desians are attacking the Temple, someone mentions the Treaty. Lloyd says, "The treaty? You mean the one that bla bla bla bla".  D:<  The way Lloyd says that line of dialogue is SO forced and unnatural it bothered me quite a bit. And because these first two hours don't have good dialogue, I'm bracing myself for what else the game is going to throw my way. Of course, there can be some scenes that could be written well, but you can't ignore the bad dialogue just so you can say there's some well written scenes sprinkled out.
But I didn't ignore the bad dialogue. I wrote that the game definitely has its fair share. Nowhere near as much as FFX, but it's there and hard to ignore. There's a good deal of exposition to be sure, but there are equal amounts of times where the writing really shone for me. I guess I'm biased as I loved the game ten years ago and I'm honestly surprised I love it as much today.
 

Harmill

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You wrote that the story was inconsistent, but maintained that it's very well written.

As for your bias, I also loved the game ten years ago. I'm now older, and poor design decisions and poor dialogue can't sneak past me the way they used to. I'm sure that I'll still enjoy my replay of ToS, but so far, I can't say that the dialogue is as good as I imagined it was when I played it ten years ago.

FFX is the same. I haven't replayed the game yet (but I have the HD remake in my backlog), and it's a game that I eagerly await replaying because of how much enjoyment I got out of it during my initial playthrough. Will I enjoy the game as much as I did 5-8 years ago? Maybe, maybe not. I believe that if FFX has bad writing, I won't enjoy it as much as I had before. Bad writing sticks out like a sore thumb if the game has an emphasis on story and characterization.

Separate from the writing aspect, I remember liking the STORY and the WORLD of FFX. I felt immersed in the world, and I enjoyed how vibrant each region of the game was. Besaid is a gorgeous island, and Mt. Gagazet is a beautiful snow zone. Funnily enough, I DO remember complaining about the characters on my first playthrough. I believe I replayed it a second time maybe one or two years afterwards, and I found myself falling in love with Tidus' character and Auron's character. I dunno, I think there were just aspects of the characters that I seemed to have overlooked during my initial playthrough, or simply didn't appreciate because I had pre-conceived biases against them. Since then, I've been calling Tidus my favourite protagonist among the slew of RPGs I've played.

However, these are my thoughts and opinions on a game that I haven't played somewhere between 5-8 years ago. I tend to forget specifics about the games and I only retain the core experience and feelings I took away from the game. Therefore, I don't feel confident in arguing over specifics about a game if I haven't played it recently. I am 100% open to the idea that I may not enjoy FFX when I replay the HD remake. Much like how I'm not afraid to admit that I feel ToS has bad dialogue, despite whatever positive memories are swimming in my brain.
 
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Tai_MT

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Yuna doesn't necessarily have to be a "stand in" for the designers or writers.  That is just most often the case with a "Mary Sue" character in this day in age.  Also, keep in mind, that definition hasn't really applied to the word since the term "Mary Sue" left Star Trek fanfiction and spread its wings to pretty much every other fanfiction and writing in general.

I've played Final Fantasy X.  It's one of my favorite games.  Yuna isn't "the way she is because she has to be".  She chose to become a Summoner.  Nobody forced her to or thought she should be one because her father is one.  In fact, most people you meet in Spira are absolutely astounded and impressed that Yuna decided to follow in her father's footsteps.  She's a "Perfect Character", and it often annoys me to no end.  Pretty much every single decision that comes before her gets solved by other people in her party instead of her.  The only time it doesn't is when we have the contrived "must marry Seymore so I can send him" plotline.  Honestly, let's face it, Yuna has these plotlines because she's such a Mary Sue and it would be more obvious without them.  Her only problems are that she's "naïve", and that's treated more endearingly than anything else.

She's the "voice of reason" in the party and is always happy to have more people come along with her, even if she doesn't know who they are (like Tidus!).  She's kind.  She's accepting.  She's trusting.

Now, does she have a flaw in there anywhere?  I couldn't find one in either of my playthroughs of the game.  Aside from the whole "Yuna has suddenly lost 900 IQ points in order for us to give her this plot with Seymore" thing.  You know, that whole plot that could've been resolved in five minutes as soon as Seymore stepped off the boat at the Blitzball tournament.  Yeah, that plot.

---

I actually had issues with a lot of Final Fantasy 7.  So many issues with it, in fact, that I didn't get more than five hours in.  The story bugged me (We're playing as terrorists with no thoughts about people losing jobs or how much it might screw up the planet to destroy these generators that go to the center of the planet!  Hoooraaaaayyyy!!!!), the characters bugged me (Nameless faceless stereotypes and tropes as characters!  Cursing violent offensive black guy with guns?  Check.  Token love interest who used to be friends with the main character?  Check.  Silent angsty protagonist?  Check!), and the graphics bugged me (Okay, when a superior system has graphics worse than an inferior system, I tend to balk a bit..  Especially when they look that bad).  The worst part about the story?  When you get further into the game, it still makes no sense.  Turns out the big bad is some kind of clone or alien or something and he thinks this meteor or whatever is his mom...  And he wants to bang his "mom" and Cloud turns out to be one of these clone alien things too, maybe?  Then we get into the movies and spin-offs of FF7 and it makes even less sense...
 

awesomerhys

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You wrote that the story was inconsistent, but maintained that it's very well written.
Yep. I did. I'm critical of the game because I love it, if that makes sense. In other words, I can point out things that are wrong with the game, but still like it at the same time. ToS is not without its share of bad dialogue. No one's debating that. I'm not saying the whole thing is very well written, but a lot of parts certainly are.

As for FFX HD, I'll wait for it to go on PS Plus. I feel as if I'd be wasting my money if I bought it now.
 

Touchfuzzy

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Yuna has a big flaw. She is kind of weak willed. She lets herself get pushed around by everyone. She takes the entire game learning to assert herself. (And I don't even like FFX, but saying she has no flaws is just wrong)
 
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Tai_MT

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Okay, stupid question then...  When it is ever brought up in game?  It's never brought up and never really treated as anything more than "endearing".  The only assertive moment she has is when she corrects Tidus during the Yunalesca fight and says "This is my story!".  After that, she's back to being her usual subdued self again without any real flaws.  On top of which, it's horribly inconsistent during the entire game.  "She's weak willed and everyone pushes her around".  Okay, when?  She makes the decision to be a Summoner on her own.  She makes the decision to make Tidus a "Guardian" or whatever it is herself (despite the protests of her actual Guardians).  She makes the decision to bring Rikku along with them despite the protests of Wakka and his Fantastic Racism against Al Bhed.  She even makes the decisions to ditch her Guardians in order to try to "send" Seymore herself despite protests of those guarding her.  She even made the decision to marry Seymore herself as some sort of plan she came up with to "send him" after the ceremony.

And then we have a few instances where people solve problems for her, or make decisions for her.  It's so horribly inconsistent that you can't really call it a "flaw" as much as "terrible writing".
 

Mouser

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The graphics of FF VII were a big block to me as well (pun intended).

That game made less and less sense as it went on - Sephiroth's the bad guy, no wait, his Mom, no Sephiroth, no, you're Sephiroth.

I still don't understand the ending of that game when the meteor hits with Aeris' pearl or whatever.

It's almost like the opening credits of Monty Python's The Holy Grail: where the writers get sacked, and then the people who sacked the writers got sacked...

Maybe there were three or four design teams. Or the one all took their two week holidays at the same time (right about when somebody decided to have hundereds of Sephiroth clones climbing Mount Doom, or whatever that Wicked Witch's castle was called in Oz Or Cloud and Tifa both having PTSD and blacking out what happened the day Sephiroth came to town....
 

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The whole PLOT is about her just going along with what the society wants her to do without any regard for herself, to live up to her father because that is what everyone told her she was supposed to do.

In fact, the whole second game is about Yuna, and Spira as a whole's, escape from having to live in one predetermined way. About her finally getting to live her life for herself rather than having her life dictated by ancient "gods" and passively following along.
 
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Tai_MT

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Well then, I missed that part in the game somewhere.  Seriously, I don't remember that ever being brought up once.  Most of what we get is a lot of fangasming at her being a Summoner.  Seriously, we set foot upon her hometown and everyone just says "Some Summoner has been in the temple a while... should we worry?".  Nobody mentions her name.  Nobody mentions her past.  Nobody even mentions she's related to the last guy who killed Sin until we're almost at the place where we play Blitzball.  We go from "nobody wants to mention her by name because she's so unimportant" to "everyone knows her father defeated the last Sin".

Yuna even says to us several times that she chose to be a Summoner on her own because she wanted to give the world 10 more years of peace, if she was capable of it.  Tidus even tries to tell her that she doesn't have to be a Summoner just because she thinks people expect it of her.  She promptly shuts him down with the lines about choosing the path herself and that she wanted to do it to help Spira (because she's so dang pure and Mary Sue that she just has to help absolutely everyone out of the goodness of her heart!).
 

Mouser

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Most of what we get is a lot of fangasming at her being a Summoner.
I think there was a lot more fangasming at Lulu every time she bent over to pick up her Mog.         (sorry, couldn't resist ;) )

Seriously, we set foot upon her hometown and everyone just says "Some Summoner has been in the temple a while... should we worry?".  Nobody mentions her name.  Nobody mentions her past.  Nobody even mentions she's related to the last guy who killed Sin until we're almost at the place where we play Blitzball.  We go from "nobody wants to mention her by name because she's so unimportant" to "everyone knows her father defeated the last Sin".

Yuna even says to us several times that she chose to be a Summoner on her own because she wanted to give the world 10 more years of peace, if she was capable of it.  Tidus even tries to tell her that she doesn't have to be a Summoner just because she thinks people expect it of her.  She promptly shuts him down with the lines about choosing the path herself and that she wanted to do it to help Spira (because she's so dang pure and Mary Sue that she just has to help absolutely everyone out of the goodness of her heart!).
Nobody mentions her name in her hometown precisely because it's her hometown and everybody knows her. The first time she's out in 'public' - the boat to the blitzball tournament, we see how the rest of the world reacts to her. She's a rock star, whether she wants to be or not.

She wants Tidus to join because she knew his father. She wants Rikku to join because she's her cousin. She's not gathering every stray dog that comes along.

She nice to people in public because that's part of being a summoner - it comes with the gig. Even Dona (Dona!) worries about what people would think of her if she stopped her pilgrimage. She's incredibly naive and foolish - as we see from all the 'luggage' she packed for the trip. - not endearing, the girl needs a babysitter, which she has in Kimahri.

Yes, Yuna was very nice to that little girl on the road. What did  you want her to do, spit on her?

And that scene comes right after she talked about putting on the fake smile IIRC.

Was there a little too much sweetener in her character? Yeah... but that was also part of her flaw - she lost a lot of that once she started questioning what was going on (ie: grew up) - even though she still decided to stay on the summoner's path, her character changed.

Edit: Since I mentioned Aeris before, another game that tops my 'hate' list is Neverwinter Nights 2 (but did anyone like that?). We raise people from the dead left and right - even as part of the plot, yet we never go back to raise our bestest friend in the whole world, or that chick from the barn  when she eventually dies a plot-death.  And that ending...(exact same ending from NVN 1's 1st expac).
 
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Dark Phoenix

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Well, he's a "audience avatar".  He's the guy you want around so that you can explain things in the world to him in order for the audience to get it. 
No, characters like Tidus and Vaan are there because since the major success of FF7 and FF8, Square has decreed that every Final Fantasy has to have a lead with the following characteristics:

- Male

- Age 16-21

- Full of either angst or ******ed joyfulness

- Lack of realization that the world doesn't revolve around THEM

FF10 would be much, much better if Yuna was the main character, as it is HER story.  Basch really should have been the main character of FF12.
 

Tai_MT

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Basch was the main character of FF12 until some higher up decided that they needed an "audience avatar" for the people playing the game to relate to.  Vaan and Penelo were inserted "last second".  If you need any proof of that, look at how little they affect the plot or even cutscenes.  They're there because someone decided the main characters weren't good enough for being "audience avatars" for the players.

Tidus exists to be an "Audience Avatar" as well.  These are very common writing devices (I love to write, so yes, knowing these things is part of the job) that are used to get your audience up to speed on the strange world they've just been dumped into.  Lots of games have these things (though some are executed better).  Look at Final Fantasy 6.  Terra is our "Audience Avatar" as she's given absolute amnesia and slowly fills in the blanks as the player learns more about the world they've been put into.  Things everyone in the game knows are explained to her up until she turns into an Esper.  At that point, another Esper fills in the blanks for us and explains what Terra is and what is going on, so Terra ceases to be the "Audience Avatar", as you're now up to speed on what the world you're playing in is about.  Let's look at Final Fantasy 7.  Cloud is our "Audience Avatar" in that.  People start off explaining to him what AVALANCHE is and why they're doing terrorist jobs.  They explain about the Shinra corporation and the town in general.  These are things that Cloud should actually know before starting the game, but they're explained to him because he's "just a mercenary" and has "no stake in the politics".  Other people even explain to Cloud what SOLDIER is, despite the fact that he was a member of it and should know what it is.  These are meant to catch up the audience to the plot.

In fact, anytime you have a plot where you play as a character with "amnesia" of any kind, that's pretty much the case.  You're playing as an Audience Avatar.  Someone who is there to just have the world and events explained to them, even though they would know those things if they didn't have amnesia.

Or, almost anytime you have a "fish out of water" storyline, the character who is the "fish out of water" is also the "Audience Avatar", as they are the ones exposition is most spouted to in order for them to learn things (and for the audience to learn things too!).

---

It doesn't matter why she wanted Tidus or Rikku to join.  The Point I was making was that she asked them to join despite the protests of her Guardians, which means that she isn't "a pushover to everyone".  It was used as an example of the inconsistency of that character trait.  You're just adding more proof to that point (by basically pointing out she's making these decisions herself and for her own reasons, despite the reasons her guardians give her for not doing those things).

If it was her hometown, they wouldn't say "A summoner has been in the temple for X days".  They would say "Yuna hasn't come out of the temple yet, should we worry?".  Words mean things, and the way the villagers word it is very important.  They don't say who it is, only that they think she's in trouble.  They don't even hint that she's famous.  They don't even say that her father was famous.  You'd think in their hometown, they'd mention stuff like that, as it would be a point of pride for the hometown.  The point remains, she didn't become a Summoner because other people told her that's what she had to be.  She decided to become it on her own.

We do see that the rest of the world treats her as a rockstar, yes.  However, it's not something she's used to when we first see it.  The look on her face and her initial reactions to these fawning people is often one of confusion.  You know, as if she's never had to deal with it before.  She decides fairly early on that the best way to deal with these people is simply to smile, laugh, and offer help if she can.  She decides that it's her job to try to give people hope and joy and maybe 10 more years if she can manage it (now compare this to the other Summoners we run across who also have similar rockstar statuses amongst the populace and don't decide to take her route of dealing with it).

The luggage she packed is meant to be endearing, actually.  "These are gifts for all the shrines we are going to visit" she says.  She had packed special things to give to the shrines she was going to pray at.  Lulu has to tell her that not only is it too much to be lugging around, but that the shrines/temples don't actually care if a Summoner brings gifts or not.  The scene is painted as "her heart is in the right place, but she's naïve".  Because of that, it's painted more as "endearing" than as "character flaw".

I don't actually remember the "being nice to the little girl on the road" part.  However, I do remember her being nice to practically everyone you ran across, including people who were rude and mean to her (and with nobody knowing they were rude to her, so she didn't actually have to be nice!).  On top of that, Yuna doesn't actually question everything until the fight with Yunalesca.  Up until that point, she believed in the Summoner's Path despite how terrible the teachings of Yevon actually were and how corrupt the people running it were.  She simply thought the people running it were "corrupt" and not that the teachings actually were.  But, once we get through the fight with Yunalesca, the game is basically over anyway.  All that's really left is simply fighting Sin.  So, it takes her the whole game to figure out and decide (with Tidus's prompting, no less!) that the Summoning Way was all wrong and didn't need to go down that way.

Now, I get that people would think "she puts on a fake smile, but she's really depressed, so it's a character flaw".  Sure, makes sense.  The problem is, however, that it never interferes with the character, or the story, or any of the relationships in the story.  In fact, it's treated endearingly and is the entire thing that allows her and Tidus to bond and fall in love.  It's not so much a "flaw" as it's a vehicle for starting a relationship between the two lead characters.  In fact, after the forced laughing scene, it's never brought up again that she's "fake smiling".  No, not even from Tidus.

I just say that she's a huge Mary Sue and it drives me crazy.  It drives me crazy because it didn't need to happen in terms of writing and execution.  They could have inserted situations in which her Naïve nature actually caused real problems for the group (which it never really does, as even her stupid plans really wouldn't have any negative consequences for her, the group, or even Spira).  Maybe if it had been her to suggest fighting the "Chocobo Eater" instead of Tidus, it could've been a good "flaw" to show off.  Maybe if she had put the group in real peril through her naïve way of thinking, she wouldn't be so much of a Mary Sue.  Maybe if her need to be "babysat" put the group in real danger or caused real public political backlash, it could've made her less of a Mary Sue.  Instead, we get the most perfect of characters imaginable whose only flaws are played as "endearing qualities" instead of actual hindrances or things that need to be worked out (you know, like Rikku's fear of Lightning and Thunder?  Or maybe Kimahri's old grudges and feeling not as good as his tribe?  Or maybe Wakka's Fantastic Racism towards Al Bhed?  Maybe Lulu's distrust of outsiders as well as her emotional barricade?).  Yuna just... has no problems.  She has nothing to work out.  She has no qualities that need to be fixed (as they actually aren't problems at all in terms of the storyline or even character relationships).  She's just the closest to a Jesus Allegory Square Enix ever gets with a Final Fantasy character.

To someone who writes stories and creates characters...  Yuna is a very frustrating character to behold as she could've been done properly and could have avoided all the Mary Sue stuff without issue.  It's so obvious that it was a conscious decision by their writing staff to make her intentionally into a Mary Sue.
 

hian

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Awesomerhys:

First things first -

I'm not saying people don't get it, I'm saying the majority of the complaints are made by people who aren't even trying because they're turned off by some essential part of a character or the plot.

What bothers me is when people try to rationalize this after the fact with an argument not realizing that it's really just about a knee-jerk emotional reaction they had because they, for instance, don't like whiny characters or time travel plot devices.

Still, there really are people who just don't get it either. Here's a story from my high-school English literature class.

My class was reading a story about a working class woman who goes to college. The story was supposed to be a critique of college campus collectivism and BS academic pretentiousness.

Yet only me and two others actually read it that way. The rest of class thought it was supposed to be a story about a woman's struggle to free herself from patriarchal structures and how men ultimately can't stand women who do that...

Anyways, I would argue that any story that can inspire debate or be read in several different ways, is definitely not a bad story.

Consider your FF8 critiques - I could reply by saying that FF characters are downed by magic and then healed afterwards all the time in combat, so what's the problem?

Or, I could remind you that there is an entire community who thinks Squall actually dies in that scene and that everything which follows is just his "final fantasy" before passing on.

Point in case, is not about getting it, as much as it is about not selling something short.

And, most people here certainly are. Even with the points you raised about FF8, they still probably make up less than 10% of the game, so are they really enough to dismiss a game as bad? Again, take a moment to consider other games you'd put in that category - games like daikatana =p

Completely off topic - that's why I never liked reviewers who review with low scales like 1-6 or 1-10, because it usually means they'll lump games together by score that don't belong together at all.

The reason comparisons are made in critiques is because the terms good and bad only make sense at all on a spectrum with a concrete standard on both sides of it.

If that isn't how you use the terms, I dont really know what any of you mean when you say "game x has a bad story". Do you mean to say that there is a standard to quality of stories wholly appart from the history of storytelling tradition?

I find it interesting you would mention tales of symphonia though - because that's a game in a series I can't stand personally, both for what I consider cheap stories and vapid characters, but this has more to do with the fact that I hate Japanese shounen adventure storytelling, which pretty much every tales game is emblematic off, not that these games are objectively bad.

Again, personal preference and perspective is a factor.

It's not that I'm telling people "these games are actually good, you're just too stupid to get it", I'm trying to say "it's not that these games are bad, it's that most games are average and that likes and dislikes has more to do with personality than with quality".

And as far as I know, this is a view that is supported by psychology as well - most preferences people have are established long before they've had the time to reflect around their experience. The arguments they make afterwards are just post hoc rationalizations made with the subconscious desire to justify the initial intuitive response.

That's why I personally think people should be more careful with terms like good or bad, and so-called quality assessment in art. Usually it's just an expressionof emotion, yet people treat it like so much more.

Edit : the above post on yuna is a great example of what I'm talking about.

I could write a 10-20 page character analysis of Yuna, and conclude with what a good character she is(personally I thought she was ok, and liked her far more than kimari, rikku or lulu), but it would be pointless for most people.

I didn't find her to be a Mary Sue and find myself wondering where the previous poster was looking half of the time where Yuna was on-screen...

But with that being said, that's perspective for you. I just don't like people who thinks their perspectives can be reasonably projected unto the rest of the world.

The irony is that people who reject the "you don't get it"-defense are actually saying the exact same thing in reverse - "this game is ****, you just don't get it" .

It's a blind street and a false dichotomy.

Nobody really gets it because everyone's confusing their private emotional responses and preferences with the objective factors of whatever it is that they're doing(in this case, games).
 
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OM3GA-Z3RO

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Wow how you people describe FF7 is not only terrible but way out of what FF7 really is, if you want I can give a whole depth of what FF7 really is so you can understand what the hell is going on in it.

I am a huge FF7 fanatic because there are so much lore and story in one and another that I finally managed to piece everything together on how FF7 became to be. Most of you probably don't want to know how it is meant to be for the audience and I respect that but the way people see it is laughable XD
 

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