Guns

[somenick]

Hi. I want to mention sort of an idea I had for guns in a scifi game I'm working on. You tell me if it sounds interesting or not. Here I go:

In my game, each character can have two weapons. A melee one, that is used when the player selects 'Attack', and a gun weapon. Attack makes the player attack with a melee weapon (knuckles, sword, etc), costs nothing. The gun weapon adds a 'Gun' command, which in turn lists a few shooting options. These options largely depend on the gun equipped. The gun itself is just an Accesory item that adds these skills if worn. Gun skills spend TP, meaning it doesn't matter what LV is your character. Guns generally attack sooner than swords, too. Guns will also do some high damage even if used by low LV characters, though TP tends to be spent fast, and to reload, needs some semi-pricey items (Or by sleeping at an Inn, complimentary ammo ). MP is used for skills other than guns, skills that are actually tied to character LV (kung fu, 'magic', etc). With this I seek to make guns more realistic: it shouldn't make a difference if a gun is fired by a skinny dude or by a giant ogre. Also avoids the constant 'Attack' button mashing. And if your gun is junk, it will still be junk if you are LV99.

Thoughts?

 

[Weremole]

That sounds a lot like how Persona 5 does it. It goes a bit further and makes each character use a different type of gun. Like how machinegun characters have a lot of ammo but are spray and pray, revolver and slingshot users have fewer bullets but are precise and how shotguns have the fewest bullets but makes a lot of damage.

 

[Aoi Ninami]

Legend of Grimrock 2 also has the mechanic that guns do fixed damage regardless of player level and stats (or rather, a fixed range of damage, since they still have variance). The result is that no-one uses guns. It's always more efficient to choose a class and weapon with good synergy so that your strongest stat is used to boost damage.

I don't think it's impossible for the mechanic to work, but it would have to be balanced very carefully. You can't just get around the problem by increasing the damage output of guns, because then it's unbalanced in the other direction, especially for early-game parties. You would probably have to provide several tiers of gun throughout the game so that they don't get outclassed, and have some interesting advantages and compensating disadvantages (from your post, it sounds like you're already thinking along these lines). One idea is to make guns effective at dealing damage, but make ammo expensive so you can't just blitz through the game using guns in every battle.

 

[Kes]

@somenick Please remember that Game Mechanics Design is not for feedback on individual, specific projects, and your post makes it sound like that is what you are looking for. If so, I shall have to move this.

Please post and clarify what you want.

 

[somenick]

@Kes Sorry. No, I'm not actually asking for any advice on my project, just mentioned to illustrate an example. I am interested in knowing thoughts about this particular game mechanic (guns dealing damage in a way not directly related to character LV and such).

@Aoi Ninami Yes, I see your concerns with this type of mechanic. But I think this mechanic could work in a game if its done in a way that is not easy to abuse, like limiting how often you can fire the guns and such. Having a lower level character be able to deal good damage can help turn the tide if they get in a much harder battle than they should (for example in open world games), while also adding some additional strategy and micromanagement like whether or not to use the gun, save up for ammo, or swap out for a different character.

 

[mauvebutterfly]

It sounds like the gun is effectively just a (bunch of) grenade(s) with this implementation. It becomes a case of weighing consumable item use if I'm understanding this correctly.

I have enjoyed this kind of thing in the past. Gives you alternative options early on or gives the mage/healer something to do while conserving mana. In a game with heavy resistances where some monsters will be immune to certain characters' usual/best attacks, it would potentially provide a nice alternative as well.

 

[KoldBlood]

Flat damage weapons can work if there are enemies that are weak to the weapon's damage type or if they just bypass all defenses which would make them the better option against opponents that are hard to damage with melee or magic.

In some of my projects that use firearms I have experimented with allowing parameters to scale damage (i.e. Precision, Accuracy, Control, Handling, etc.) which works well alongside other parameters like Strength and Magic just giving the player a third parameter to consider.

I've also tried out having weapons (or more specifically, ammo types for said weapons) deal a set amount of decent damage and making accuracy super important for those weapons. In other words; you'll deal good damage if you can hit something but if you have bad accuracy you're essentially "taking a shot in the dark" so to speak which is a relatively good representation of a firearm.

As for the issue of ammo being a consumable I don't think it would be too much of a issue (it sounds like it functions as an MP potion of sorts) as long as the usefulness you can get out of a full bar of TP is comparable to that of a full bar of MP and melee attacks aren't too overpowered (since they sound like they're a free to use basic attack). You could also consider doing away with consumable ammo altogether, you can keep the "reload" function to balance against other weapons but the characters have an infinite ammo pool to pull from. This could even be explained in the lore if necessary.

Making the firearms more versatile compared to their melee and magic counterparts could help too. Perhaps you can change out ammo types on the fly depending on what enemies you are facing whereas other weapons are stuck with a static damage type? You could also have the ability to modify firearms with attachments improving some aspects of the firearm while reducing others for a trade off.

 

[Super-User]

sound realistic

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

Gun skills spend TP, meaning it doesn't matter what LV is your character. Guns generally attack sooner than swords, too. Guns will also do some high damage even if used by low LV characters, though TP tends to be spent fast, and to reload, needs some semi-pricey items (Or by sleeping at an Inn, complimentary ammo ).

If you can balamce that out, this would probably be a good idea.

 

[Diretooth]

Using a Gun/Sword dynamic, it can be a little difficult to justify why a ballistic or energy projectile isn't tearing through flesh and crippling enemies, or searing their flesh. In a fantasy setting, you will have to justify more often why the gun doesn't gun properly, such as certain shielding protecting against ballistic weaponry, or creatures being magical and thus have a natural resistance, etc.
If I were to have guns in a game, I would first have a reason for them: In standard fantasy, they're high-damaging weapons that take several turns to reload, and because the gun itself is very complex, you cannot channel magic through it to enchant the bullet in the way a bow can channel a spell into an arrow. Thus, guns with actual enchantments on them are prohibitively expensive, and would more often than not appear on extremely rich enemies/bosses. Some enemies are resistant to mundane weapons, and thus guns are practically useless, but some have high enough defenses that guns are the more practical option. Plus, ammunition can act as a useful resource management system for you the developer, with enchanted bullets being replacements of spells, sacrificing raw damage for elemental damage, or the ability to hit certain magical enemies.
If it were in a more modern setting, or there was a reason for modern weapons to exist, it would still be high damaging to Humanoid characters, unless they had some sort of damage reduction such as a bulletproof vest, or some manner of high tech shielding, or very thick plating, with appropriate ammunition for each of these. Against monsters, again, they either have a healing factor that mitigates small puncture wounds, thus justifying melee weapons that leave slower to heal wounds, are made of magic and thus bullets don't do nearly as much damage as they would a non-magical creature, and/or they have magical shielding that works against small, fast bits of metal, but not large, slower slabs of metal.

IMO, guns usually are rule of cool in RPGs, but are otherwise inconsequential to the overall game, or they're just swords by another name*. The 360 game 'Lost Odyssey' features guns in the game as a result of a magic-industrial revolution, but they're usually just an attack like any other weapon, and don't offer anything new except the party member who does use guns doesn't move closer to the enemies, the ranged gimmick is used once, maybe twice in battle with that character and all other times they do just as well as swords.
That being said, they are, again, rule of cool, and sometimes they don't need any special justification or unique abilities, except maybe being used to hit that context sensitive target nobody else can reach via melee.
*They deal damage, but do not have any advantages/disadvantages to swords.

 

[cthulhusquid]

I have a post-apocalyptic game where guns are your primary weapon, so I take a realistic approach. They use ammo which you have to purchase, multiple firing modes (single shot, various burst fire options, full auto), different calibers, and do much better damage than basic attacks. Low level enemies can be killed very easily, but so can your character if you don't take precautions.

 

[Tech]

I use guns as basically "wands" that do physical damage and take up an off-hand slot. There's a paired variant of each, called a "Brace." They also add the skill category "Gunplay," which covers ranged special attacks, such as "Supressive Fire," "Snipe," etc. They have an "Ammo" slot for special cartriges.

 

[ave36]

I have a few ideas on how to implement guns and make them different from swords.

: Make the gunner the designated ranged character by introducing game mechanics that make range matter: rows, targetability, flying enemies;
: Make the gunner less dependent on his character stats and more on his equipment. The swordsman deals damage with Normal Attack that takes the Attack param into account. The gunner has the skill Shoot in lieu of the Normal Attack, which deals flat damage depending on his weapon strength. At the same time, the Defense attribute of the target is also irrelevant; the gunner can kill those hard shelled crab and turtle critters that resist sword blows;
: Make the gunner dependent on ammo. The gunner can hit those flying and armored beasties that laugh off sword attacks, but without bullets, the gunner is helpless.

In my current project, gun is just a weapon type for the Scientist class character, whose theme is steampunk gadgets and gimmicks. It has no special mechanics. However, I may start another project in the future that will utilize all those mechanics.