Guys, I want your opinion. World map or not?

[Shenic]

Guys, I need your opinion. Basically, I don't know if I should make my game with a world map (old Final Fantasy style) or make it more like a Zelda game, where a map leads to another and, eventually, the player will arrive in a city/town/dungeon.

 

[Todeswalzer]

personally i prefer the Zelda style, I was never overly keen on the wandering a severely under-scaled world map. All the games I work on are done in the style of the zelda  games, sure it means making loads more maps but i feel it gives the game a much more consistent feel.

 

[Nirwanda]

It's a very personal choice with no correct answer, both approaches are good, so I believe it really hinges on what you want from your game. I have no preference and have made games using both approaches. But if I had to pick one, I would say: no world map. It's more cohesive that way and you've got to travel through less empty space as world maps tend to be.

 

[Ugouka]

Well, the big benefit of a world map is to give the player a sense of scope of the world, as well as the general layout of the land. It presents a different type of puzzle in the sense that they can clearly see what obstacles lie in wait to get to X location. (ie. City X is behind those mountains, I'll probably need to find a way to pass those!) This allows for a little more streamlined approaches when it comes to exploration missions because they can see the obstacle. It can also create a sense of curiosity in the player. If I'm playing in the desert, and hop out into the world map, and I see a lush, verdant forest with funky looking trees, I'm likely to want to go there and see what's up.


HOWEVER, if you're going for a game that's mostly A leads to B leads to C, the world map can be a relatively useless tool that serves little function. The geography is rarely important in the direct route games, since you often cut the long travel times from the game in the interest in keeping it engaging, or it's just an all-together smaller area of play. You don't need a world map to show if you're playing in an area that's only a few square miles, for example. It is irrelevant at that point. Not having a world map in these situations helps maintain a level of immersion in your game, since you're not "minimizing" the world to remove yourself from it, in a sense. You're down in the dirt the whole time.


You could even do a middle ground if you want. Make gameplay have no world map, but when you use a boat, vehicle, or carriage, have a cutscene take you out to the world map and move you to a predetermined location. That way the player gets to see the world they're in, but they never actually go Godzilla, turn the size of a mountain on the map, and rampage across the landscape to get to the next town, which is smaller than they are at this point.


So basically, ask yourself: What size do I want my playable world? Does the Lay of the Land contribute to the story at all? Is optional exploration a thing I want to explore, or would I prefer direct objectives? Neither approach is wrong, they just support different styles of game.

 

[Balako]

world map will also reduce the number of maps you will have to make ....200 smaller maps can be 20 with a world map *not a real number just throwing it out there*


im making a game with no world map, and its taking a hell lot of maps so i can feel a "good" gameplay material forming ...


in another thread called what do you dislike in rpgs or something, some people said that world map is a big no for them, while others didt mind it.... so its YOUR choice depending on your game style, but world map will make mapping easier from my point of view

 

[bgillisp]

Depends. I've played games that are good that have a world map, and I've played games where the world map hurt. Personally, if the whole point of the game is to figure out how to get from point A to point B, or exploring in general, a world map can hurt, as now the player can easily see the destination and all points of interest, which removes some of the mystery from the game (see Quest for Glory 3 for an example of this, as the world map in that game easily revealed all secret points of interest when I played it for the first time, and destroyed any sense of mystery or hidden locations from that game).


However, if the game is heavily story driven, I think a world map helps, as the player can more easily get from point A to B to continue the story, without slogging through the Forest of Doom for the 500th time. I'd hate to think what FF7 or FF8 would have been like without a world map honestly.

 

[Balako]

I'd hate to think what FF7 or FF8 would have been like without a world map honestly.

they would be like ff13 =\

 

[Lunarea]

I think making a world map as a part of your development process is a pretty good idea. It gives you a visual cue about the way the world is laid out and helps you plot out travel routes, side locations etc. I don't think you always have to include that map as an interact-able part of the game, though. You could use it as an object (ex. picture used during a cutscene), part of a game walkthrough or just leave it out of player experience entirely.


So, whether you let the player interact with the map or not is entirely up to you and how you want your game to flow. But I'd recommend making a map for yourself, anyway.

 

[metronome]

To have a world map (or not) in your game is part of the game design.


Do you want your game to feel like FF? Zelda? Dark Soul? Corpse Party? To the Moon?


Once you know the answer, you will be able to decide if you want the world map or not.......

 

[Clangeddin]

It depends how you design it.
If it gives a sense of depth of and exploration to the world, adding all sort of sidequests/hunts/treasures ecc.. then by all means go for it. It can improve the game drastically.


If it's just a filler giant space packed with random monster encounters, then it's best to avoid it. It would effectively make the game worse than without.



Example of a game that did World Map right: Final Fantasy 9


Example of a game that did World Map wrong: Suikoden 2


It also depends on the scope of the game. In a grand epic game it can be a tremendous asset if done right. For a short game it's generally a waste of time.


That said, there are grand epic games that manage just fine even without the world map to retain their epicness. I'm thinking of the Laxius Force series.

 

[Azurecyan]

A world map can either hinder or compliment the game, lore, and/or story. If you want wide exploration with possibly various points of interest filled with sidequests, a world map may be your thing, but it also depends what kind of world map. There's at least 2 types of world maps that I've seen: Point by Point(plotting points of interest) world maps(Breath of Fire IV, Atelier Dusk Series, etc), and fully explorable world maps(Final Fantasy, Tales of, etc).


As for the 2 types of world maps, it all depends how you want exploration to be executed. The point by point world map gives you an overview of the whole world, but you're limited to the points of interesting(following a line to the next areas). Though it is limiting, you can have prerequisites to how new places/new lines open up to new places. Say for instance you explore a supposed dead-end area. After completing said requisites(defeat all types of enemies in the vicinity or gather items, etc), a new point of interest opens up on your world map. This can aid in exploration if your goal in-game is to also explore and find possible new places. This also allows the player to have no knowledge that the next place is a new dungeon or new town until they reach it(you can plot city points before hand so they know it's a city). Hidden points of interest(usually obvious if drawn on the world map), can be hidden by clouds and uncovered when/if it's part of the story or a sidequest. The drawback to this world map is the player may feel too limited to only the points of interest. Some players may not like having to explore every new point to unlock the next. In summary, a point by point world map can be great for explorers of the unknown or if the protagonist has never explored the land. It gives a sense of wanting to explore and allows players who love exploring to do so in order to open up new places.


A fully explorable world map like the older Tales of Games, and Final Fantasy, can be great if your game spans more than 1 continent or if your continent is large enough. It allows the player to have a sense of exploration, but also as a fresh explorer. Some drawbacks of the world map is having too open of a map that some places may not be available to the player if they attempt to go their early(you have to get from town A to dungeon B, but town C and dungeon F can be accessible).  Of course, you can counter it with a guard or some sort of small event that tells the player that you can't go there; or having too of a restricted world map that looks almost unnatural(FInal Fantasy with the mountains curving around a path, usually telling you you HAVE to get to point A to point B or point B.1). In summary, if you want a large world with easily explorable lands and less maps, this is your go to. If you don't mind the player going to a later dungeon or finding a cave that possibly is optional, then this is your go to. It allows the player to have a sense of exploring the whole world to find interesting nooks and crannies.


A Zelda-esque map can be quite fun if executed correctly. Exploration and getting from point A to point B can be a little tricky or boring if the game maps get a little tedious or if the maps all look the same(Tales of Xillia I'm looking at you.). With Zelda-esque maps, you'll want to make it fun and have various maps that have something you can get early or get later with certain tricks that your character may have learned or tools you've obtained, or you can just go the straightforward route and connect point A to point B with 2-3 maps. In summary, a map like Zelda's should have various nooks and crannies that you can explore, but add interest to the player rather than hinder their ability to get from point A to point B. Tediousness can hinder the player as well, or if the character has to backtrack, it will be a problem(unless you have an ability or save point that can have the player travel back to towns and dungeons).


In conclusion, it all boils down to how you want to execute the game and what you bring and offer. A game with bad world maps and exploration can lead to players with a disinterest of it and wanting to hurry to get to point A to point B. A world map should also allow the player to interact with, rather than to only be there. For instance a world map can have gathering points(Tales of the Abyss), or treasure chests lain out. It's all about exploring and finding, which is what a world map is all about. Just be careful not to overdo(or play down) it to the point of having an open world map restrict the player to get to ONLY point A to point B(or having all of points A thru Z already accessible) or have a Zelda-esque game where wide, wide maps are empty(or too cramped).

 

[Wavelength]

Complete matter of personal taste with no correct answer for any kind of game.


Personally, I like world maps.

 

[Shenic]

Thank you guys, you gave me some good ideas.

 

[LaFlibuste]

I think making a world map as a part of your development process is a pretty good idea. It gives you a visual cue about the way the world is laid out and helps you plot out travel routes, side locations etc. I don't think you always have to include that map as an interact-able part of the game, though. You could use it as an object (ex. picture used during a cutscene), part of a game walkthrough or just leave it out of player experience entirely.


So, whether you let the player interact with the map or not is entirely up to you and how you want your game to flow. But I'd recommend making a map for yourself, anyway.

I want to expand on this. Having a map is, in my opinion, absolutely essential, whatever the scope of your game. Be it a single house, a district, a city, a country, the whole world, a whole solar system or a whole galaxy, making a map is an absolute must, even if only for you as the story writer to help you get a sense of where everything is. It makers for pretty good lore to show your player, too, even if they don't get to walk on it like in classic RPGs.

The question, however, really is "should you have a classic RPG world map". I personally hate classic RPG world maps. I think it makes the world look empty. What's up with that almighty empire that spans thousands of acres of lush, fertile green plains and forests but only has a sigle castle for its king somewhere in the middle and maybe a a ridiculously small rural town for its capital? The world is not that way, even if you go back to medieval times or to antiquity. It's not empty, it's not unoccupied. The land is farmed, it is occupied. One of the rare games I think did it okay was maybe Secret of Mana on SNES: first you didn't walk on the world map, you could only fly over it, and you could see how cities were large and occupied the land, it wasn't just an itsy-bitsy one-tile thing.
 

However, if the game is heavily story driven, I think a world map helps, as the player can more easily get from point A to B to continue the story, without slogging through the Forest of Doom for the 500th time. I'd hate to think what FF7 or FF8 would have been like without a world map honestly.

Now, not having a walkable world map doesn't mean you have to map everything. If you don't want to include "crossing this empty wasteland" as a dungeon or a chapter or anything, find a gimmick to skip it over. Maybe there are land cruisers, maybe your characters join a caravan, whatever. A single cutscene or transition or something and there you have it, you are on the other side of the uninteresting wasteland. But you didn't have to see how this mighty country occupies only 2% of its land.


Also, who cares about travelling through Doom Forest 500 times? You could also have any kind of quick-travel you wanted: port cities with ships, a subway system in your big city, cannons across the land like in Secret of Mana, or maybe even just a map you can open at any time in the great outdoors like in Skyrim where you can quick-travel to places you've already discovered. Or anything else you like. Just find a way to keep your game from being tedious while still being immersive. Be creative!

 

[Ejronin]

I see a world map as something dependent upon the overall scale of game. If you're building something of a grand adventure you'll likely want the presence to be larger than the character and provide players with a sense of long journey and more than just a few areas to visit, but all of them also very large with several things to do or see within each. It's helpful if it ties into the purpose given to the player / character, however. 


If you're ding something more linear wherein the player is simply going from point to point, then it may be that have the tedium of popping out of a town, marching through fields with random encounters, to get to another town does not serve the best interest of the title. 


Either method has merit, but that merit rides on the back of purpose. Anything without purpose is just wasted effort and time, in my opinion. 

 

[M.I.A.]

Unrelated: @Ejronin, Your Kefka is too effing cute!!


Related: I prefer no world maps, but they have their purposes. I usually keep the stories of my games smaller, more local. One kingdom, rather than the world.

 

[ksart]

I really think it depends on the type of game you're trying to make. Personally, I like world maps, but I always enjoyed Final Fantasy more than Zelda, and if you're not going to allow the player to run around on a world map I would prefer to have the option of a node-based map for fast travel (ie FFT or the Elder Scrolls series). Simply because I like seeing the layout of the land and have some kind of reference for where everything is.


I don't know... Like I said, world maps can have their place and it all really depends on the story you are trying to tell. In my opinion if you have a story to tell and you don't really want your player to get too sidetracked then have the Zelda style (and the FFX and on) map system where it goes from one zone to the next can work for you but if you have a story that can use a little sidetracking and easy backtracking then a world map can have its uses.

 

[BigToastie]

What would you guys think of the below?


So it would be Zelda-esque when you explore the world its all linked together, obviously not just keeping all maps the same, and adding unique features and events in the different areas. However I will also be looking to add to all main cities an Air Ship Station so you can travel to different continents and lands, sometimes through trade routes, you'll need to complete main or optional quests to unlock locations to travel too.


This even will take you to the 'world map' so you can see the travel route it takes to the new area, and it gives you a glimpse into the world map but other then travelling by airship it wont be accessible. (this also allows for unique events that have a chance to occur when you do travel (attacked by a drake etc.))


I am also possibly thinking of using a teleport style feature to key points (way points in Diablo) for instance so you can travel between towns with that areas "Portal Stone" - but you'd have needed to activate the gem by some prerequisites that have been set (fix a broken portal stone, complete a quest to get access to it etc.)


thanks

 

[Anthony Xue]

So it would be Zelda-esque when you explore the world its all linked together, obviously not just keeping all maps the same, and adding unique features and events in the different areas. However I will also be looking to add to all main cities an Air Ship Station so you can travel to different continents and lands, sometimes through trade routes, you'll need to complete main or optional quests to unlock locations to travel too.


This even will take you to the 'world map' so you can see the travel route it takes to the new area, and it gives you a glimpse into the world map but other then travelling by airship it wont be accessible. (this also allows for unique events that have a chance to occur when you do travel (attacked by a drake etc.))


I am also possibly thinking of using a teleport style feature to key points (way points in Diablo) for instance so you can travel between towns with that areas "Portal Stone" - but you'd have needed to activate the gem by some prerequisites that have been set (fix a broken portal stone, complete a quest to get access to it etc.)


thanks

"Glimpse into the world map": Personally, I would always create some kind of map which could be viewed on its own, not only for a moment while traveling. It allows for great foreshadowing, i.e. showing the player a number of places that the journey will lead to; you want to incite a reaction like "that place seems interesting, I want to explore it".


Your travel methods: Airship travel sounds cool, but if you have such a network, why include a teleport system as well? If you include it, how about activation by password? This would allow the player to travel to yet undiscovered locations via the teleportals if he manages to find out the secret password. For most portals, I agree that there should be some kind of activation method first to ensure the player has already visited the specific location.


Beyond that, how about a look at this?


http://ancient-architects.com/?page_id=35 (take a look at "On Overland Travel")

 

[BigToastie]

"Glimpse into the world map": Personally, I would always create some kind of map which could be viewed on its own, not only for a moment while traveling. It allows for great foreshadowing, i.e. showing the player a number of places that the journey will lead to; you want to incite a reaction like "that place seems interesting, I want to explore it".


Your travel methods: Airship travel sounds cool, but if you have such a network, why include a teleport system as well? If you include it, how about activation by password? This would allow the player to travel to yet undiscovered locations via the teleportals if he manages to find out the secret password. For most portals, I agree that there should be some kind of activation method first to ensure the player has already visited the specific location.


Beyond that, how about a look at this?


http://ancient-architects.com/?page_id=35 (take a look at "On Overland Travel")

What I may do, rather then giving a person a map system, I may put the a pedestal with the map on at each airship point so you can view the world map, as well as the various destinations that each airship point will take you (I mean I could develop it further so you can see where each airship point takes) - like planning a subway trip in London! haha


I also plan to put an event where going specific places have a chance to hit an encounter while you go on your airship etc.


You do have a good point there I dont want huge amounts of waypoints, however I may create something with secret passages and hidden passwords, its a very interesting concept!


I am thinking of possibly setting up a town scroll system, as if you have to travel far to get to a cave to only realise you aren't high enough level or need more pots, it can be annoying, walking all the way back to get back there so you can portal back and use the return scroll to get back.(this is only a thought while I was reading your reply)


also thanks for the link it's really interesting