Hard Coding Dev. vs Engine Using Dev.

[SoulPour777]

To start with this discussion, what I wanted to get as opinion from everyone of you is what you think about this mindset. I hope that this would not start any quarrel about such topic. Anyway, let me start.

I was on this pages on a social networking site which seems to be comparing or speaking ill of using game engines, APIs like RGSS3 and or, using a game making engine such as RPG Maker. This started when I started to post my rpg maker made games (with the help of my own scripting prowess, Moghunter's, YF's etc). It was a game I made back then I originally planned to release. Some were giving out good reviews not until some 'hard coding' developers as they think of themselves spoke ill about RPG Maker's way of developing games...such as I should not get this and that praise because I used a third party software or game making tool, etc.

I have been coding for C++ and Java before with the aid of graphic libraries, and never in my mind has had me taken to this mindset. I think developing games can be done in a way comfortable and a lot professional the way the developer wants it to. What the mindset the person has been showing is that:

Custom Made, Hard Coded > API / Engine Made Games

This made me sad because as if he's saying game makers who made their games in rpg maker or any engine of the like is not to be having their limelight as game developers because its made in an engine. 

My cents about it:

• No matter what language, form or in any way the game is made should not be an issue. If the developer wants to code it purely, then its fine. If the developers tried to use an engine, then that's also fine. 

I think they are getting it in the wrong way. Not because someone used an engine like RPG Maker does not mean it does not contain massive coding into it.

What are your thoughts though?

 

[tearsofthenight]

Whatever gets the job done I suppose BD  .

 

[Kaelan]

I have about 6 years of C++ experience, and I've written 4 games completely from scratch (including all the engine code). The reason I'm using RPG maker to make my current game is because I don't really want to spend months writing directX code and serialization code and debugging tools all over again. I've done that, I know how it works, and now I just want to spend as much of my time as possible making the actual game. And using an engine (like RM, or Unity, or Unreal, or whatever else you want to use) lets me do that.

It's a cost-benefit analysis. I have a limited amount of time and I want my game to be released sometime in the not too distant future. I could write most of what RM is doing from scratch myself, but why? Enterbrain already did it for me. As long as you're fine with the limitations of the engine and/or can work around them, it doesn't make any sense to write it again yourself unless you're doing it for learning purposes.

If your goal is to get better at making games, making one from scratch will definitely teach you more than using an existing engine. But if your goal is to just make a good game, then 9 times out of 10 using an existing engine is the better way to go. This is, in fact, why most companies no longer roll their own engines and instead just license an existing one.

As far as the actual game goes, nobody playing it cares what it was made with or how many people made it, they just care that it's good.

 

[Sharm]

This elitist subset happens in any culture, there are the "hard code only" in the coding world, there's the "pixel purists" in the pixel artist world, there's the "twitch gaming is the only real gaming" in the gamer crowd and so on and so forth. These people have found something that they enjoy or are good at and want to be the best at it. Unfortunately they've decided to go the easy route of proving their the best by trying to make everything else disqualified. Trying to be the best among a large group is hard to quantify and something you will probably never accomplish, reducing it to it's "purest" form is easier.


I wouldn't worry about these people. Retreading the same work over and over is working harder, not better. Finishing things is a skill on it's own. In the end you'll be in a better place by taking on all challenges head on instead of only working to be good against the ones that fit in your little box. That and you'll also have a lot more games that are played by a lot more people. You may never get critical acclaim but you can laugh at the snobs all the way to the bank.

 

[Diego2112]

As someone in school for the subject, I can tell you that many, MANY big name dev companies use engines.  Sure, they may MOD THE -YOINKED!- out of 'em, but then again, isn't that exactly what scripts are for with RPG Maker?

I personally don't see any issue with using an engine.  

Sure, if you've the knowledge and experience to make your own, go for it!  More power to ya!  One day, I KNOW I'll be making my own physics engine, because I'm not very satisfied with what's out right now.  But right now, I don't have the ability to do so.

I guess what I'm saying is use what you've got to make the best game you can.

Also, MAD props for understanding Java, because that -YOINKED!- confused the -YOINKED!- out of me!

 

[Shaz]

Why would you want to spend years developing your own engine when someone else has already done it for you? Is your goal to make a game engine, or to make a game? Who cares what others think - most times they can't tell whether you've written your own or used an off-the-shelf one, and can't distinguish between different off-the-shelf ones anyway. Players don't know what language you've used and they don't care - they want a game that's good to play and has been made well.


I have had a VERY successful and brilliant game developer tell me once that he and his employees made their own game engine simply because there wasn't one available when they got started years ago, but if he had to start over, he'd absolutely buy an engine and use it. He made the recommendation to me to find an engine that did what I needed, and to use it, rather than reinvent the wheel.

 

[Diego2112]

Why would you want to spend years developing your own engine when someone else has already done it for you? Is your goal to make a game engine, or to make a game? Who cares what others think - most times they can't tell whether you've written your own or used an off-the-shelf one, and can't distinguish between different off-the-shelf ones anyway. Players don't know what language you've used and they don't care - they want a game that's good to play and has been made well.

I have had a VERY successful and brilliant game developer tell me once that he and his employees made their own game engine simply because there wasn't one available when they got started years ago, but if he had to start over, he'd absolutely buy an engine and use it. He made the recommendation to me to find an engine that did what I needed, and to use it, rather than reinvent the wheel.

My buddy (and rival developer-even though more of't'n'not, we end up colabing on projects) feels this exact same way.  He WAS coding his own engine for a game he's making (and indeed, the prototype was built using an engine we coded together in HTML/Javascript), but found an engine that does EXACTLY what he was trying to do, and the license was not too terrible to buy.

It's also the same reason that we'll be licensing the CryEngine when we get into 3D Developing. 

Your post sums up pretty much what I WANTED to say, but couldn't.  *nods*

 

[Zeriab]

C++? Pff. FPGA's are what real developers use.

No, that's only what pussies use. ASICs is the way to go! REAL developers have their own factories

Only a bit of Assembly code to tie things together, and that is all you need to create fantastic games.

Ah, the good old days when we didn't have that stream of inferior programmers using fancy pants abstractions. They can never come to our level. We are the last breed.

 

[SoulPour777]

Thanks for all your responses, everyone. This sums up the thought. I guess there are just people out there who wants to be called themselves real game developers and programmers because they had made their own game engine, their own game the hard coded way. I've seen them post about like...they being the better developers because it is coded etc.

 

[Kaelan]

C++? Pff. FPGA's are what real developers use.

No, that's only what pussies use. ASICs is the way to go! REAL developers have their own factories

Only a bit of Assembly code to tie things together, and that is all you need to create fantastic games.

Ah, the good old days when we didn't have that stream of inferior programmers using fancy pants abstractions. They can never come to our level. We are the last breed.

Real programmers set the universal constants at the start such that the universe evolves to contain the disk with the data they want

 

[Mouser]

Tell your "critic" you'd rather spend your time building games than building game engines.

They're two almost entirely different skillsets. You can be a great game engine builder and not be able to build any games, or be a great game developer and not know anything about the internal workings of a game engine.

 

[hian]

If every developer out there had to make a dedicated engine from scratch for every single new game, then not only would we have much fewer games out on the market than we currently have, but in most cases it would be equivalent of reinventing the wheel over and over and over again.

New engines serve specific development needs, such as providing developers new tools for addressing new specific issues relevant to whatever game it is they're trying to make, streamlining the development process, or for keeping up with technological advances in hardware and production standards/trends.

If non of these issues are relevant to the product you're envisioning, then making a new engine from scratch is a costly waste of time and effort.

With that being said, anyone who says something as inane as "real developers develop everything from scratch", or "real developers only use X for the job" is a moron who has no true understanding of game development.

I would ask such a person why the hell they'd bother to spend loads of time and resources developing a new engine for a game before even bothering to research whether the game they envision could be made using an already existing engine or dev-kit?

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is the product at the end of the road. A person who's more concerned with labels such as "real", than with what they're supposed to be making, isn't likely to be making anything worthwhile anytime soon anyway. Just press the ignore button, and move on.

 

[SoulPour777]

I totally agree with this Hian. Btw, you're really in Japan right now?

Anyways, thanks for lifting the spirit up. I have been using engines now, I don't want to reinvent the wheel for my own engine and code everything from scratch everytime. For learning purposes, maybe it is a need to make an engine for you to make the game, but if making a game is your goal, I think using an engine is not and never an inferior choice.

Perhaps they feel superior by doing the wheel everytime that's why they are saying it like that.

 

[hian]

I totally agree with this Hian. Btw, you're really in Japan right now?

Anyways, thanks for lifting the spirit up. I have been using engines now, I don't want to reinvent the wheel for my own engine and code everything from scratch everytime. For learning purposes, maybe it is a need to make an engine for you to make the game, but if making a game is your goal, I think using an engine is not and never an inferior choice.

Perhaps they feel superior by doing the wheel everytime that's why they are saying it like that.

Right now, I am on vacation in Norway visiting family, but I am usually in Japan. Living between Chiba and Ibaraki (chiba-raki =P)

And you're right. It's usually about wanting to feel superior, usually because of some deep-rooted inferiority complex. Usually these people don't have the resources or time to make a game, even with an engine, so they're just trying to find excuses for themselves for why they aren't doing anything constructive with their time.

Everyone who're actually making games just serve to remind them of that, so they rack down on them by saying stuff like "You aren't really developing anything, because you're using an engine", or "you can't make a good game using that engine" etc.

 

[SoulPour777]

This started when I made my first RPG game in RPG maker from all my other games. He was doing games in hardcoded Java and C++, actually I think it triggered him jealousy and all that stuff because when they were giving good praises out of it, he was barring out the comments saying that hard coding is greater than third party engines etc etc. so i had to stop that person and clear him out the real game development industry and how game creation works. 

Well I guess that's it for then. I don't really mean to let people get impressed on my work because its hard coded or anything, i just want to make a game. I never realized some other people out there feel superior because they made it hard coded.

 

[Diego2112]

-SNIP- I never realized some other people out there feel superior because they made it hard coded.

Human nature.  People are going to do whatever they can to put a feather in their cap.  

I try my best to avoid that trap, but unfortunately, even *I* fall victim to it (usually something involving one of my hobbies-it's not so much I feel superior, it's just that I tend to come off as a jack@$$ when I talk.  Don't MEAN to, but my inflection, and the fact that usually I *AM* making eye-contact, and am fairly well animated...  I'm a bit overpowering, I suppose.  Wife calls it "intense.").  Only thing can be done is try and educate and move on, yeah?  

As Sir Reginald Pikedevant Esquire put it, "I do what I can to be a class act, though I fear detractors will only detract.  I pay them no heed, they're not worth my time-except to disparage briefly in rhyme!"

 

[Ghaleon]

I'm better than you all cuz I can code in C++, and even made some ps2 stuff using emotion engine assembly!... ok no I don't mean that... I mean I've done that but I know it doesn't make me better.

Saying that is kinda like saying some music sounds better than others cuz it's more difficult to play the song. That doesn't matter one darn bit when your goal is to make a song that sounds good. Games are supposed to be fun, if you can make yours fun, that's all that matters.

Knowing more languages and such is a good thing so you have more tools/resources to use to assist in doing things that you might not do before, which may assist in "fun", but bragging about it is just childish and stupid.

 

[Shaz]

On the other hand, knowing more languages means you're probably not an expert in just one or two, which means you're not getting the full use out of it that you could.


Kind of a Jack of all trades, master of none, thing.

 

[SoulPour777]

I'm better than you all cuz I can code in C++, and even made some ps2 stuff using emotion engine assembly!... ok no I don't mean that... I mean I've done that but I know it doesn't make me better.

Saying that is kinda like saying some music sounds better than others cuz it's more difficult to play the song. That doesn't matter one darn bit when your goal is to make a song that sounds good. Games are supposed to be fun, if you can make yours fun, that's all that matters.

Knowing more languages and such is a good thing so you have more tools/resources to use to assist in doing things that you might not do before, which may assist in "fun", but bragging about it is just childish and stupid.

I agree on that completely. Sometimes, perhaps its their personality that get them to it. Because people appreciate your work more than they did, because to be honest at the end of the day the person playing the game won't care that much of the game's development, whether was it hard coded or used an engine to make it.

On the other hand, knowing more languages means you're probably not an expert in just one or two, which means you're not getting the full use out of it that you could.

Kind of a Jack of all trades, master of none, thing.

Most probably. They jump into different programming languages and surely, they won't be able to grasp all the things needed to master the language. Although I would like to ask your opinion, if someone would have to concentrate in Ruby and RGSS (assuming Enterbrain would not stop making more RPG Maker Engines till the future), is it good for one to stay doing Ruby? 

 

[Ghaleon]

Im no master, but I can say that learning multiple programming languages is not at all a hinderance as to the mastery of one. I only have learned a few but all the high level (a term that means the code looks more like english than computer language) languages ive seen are similar enough that anything fancy you learn with one can be applied with then all.

Now APIs like directX and such on the other hand, they are indeed capable of being curveballs but coders generally only learn those on a need to know basis.

Also, i can assure you that there are many many mouth droppingly good programmers out there who know several, maybe even dozens of programming languages.

Being a good coder isnt so much about knowing all the code's "words" and whatnot, but knowing how to use them.